2497 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

Plaintiff wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: So, after you ignore Owain, the most prominent Tranquil in the games who you can have a rather robust conversation with. Do tell, how has it been applied?

I'm not asking how it has been abused. That is separate no matter how much you want to lump the two together to support your fanaticism.

Well, no one had intended to reverse the Rite on him, and I was talking about permanence.

I would allow voluntary Tranquility... for a short trial period, after which it's removed and they can make an informed decision now that they know what both states are like. And if they actually prefer it, to go for it again.

That still defers the fact that it wasstill his choice to be traquil. Which means mages do choose it. Making him become  untraquil would  ignore his rights.

An uninformed choice is not a choice at all. Nobody actually knows what it means to be Tranquil, without experiencing it first hand, and the only examples we have of people's minds being restored resulted in them begging for death rather than return to that state.

Owain might be in a personal hell, and we would never know, because without his emotions, he is not equipped to tell us.

1. Tranquility is not an uniformed choice. They make it clear what it is hand how it feel. Even the tranquil can tell you this.

2.Owen also makes it a to explain that he is fine with it and it was his choice. Even defends it.

[Plaintiff]

leaguer of one wrote...
Funny being that she is a new divine and trying to change chantry behavior.

If it wasn't for the fact that her most valuable resource was organizing to rebel against her, she wouldn't have bothered. The Chantry will do anything to maintain its own authority.

That still does not defere the fact the chantry does allow mages to do research. Even the Main character of Asunders when into detail over the research he was allowed to do.

The Chantry shouldn't be in a position to allow or forbid the mages anything. The Circle should be a secular organization. In fact,t the Chantry should be removed from the political sphere altogether.

Their plenty ways to combat them with out blood magic. It called the spirit magic school...

That is a complete and utter lie.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Four_Schools_of_Magic:_Spirit

Nowhere in that link does it say that Spirit Magic is effective against Demons. In fact, the school directly involves the summoning of spirits. Given that benevolent spirits prefer to ignore humans, the chance that a Spirit Mage might encounter a demon by mistake is high.

Sorry but do you have  a statement form the lore or game that show that most of them fail the Harrowing?

I didn't say 'most'. But nobody should be failing the Harrowing at all, not if they're being properly trained, as you claim they are.

[Xilizhra]

1. Tranquility is not an uniformed choice. They make it clear what it is hand how it feel. Even the tranquil can tell you this.

2.Owen also makes it a to explain that he is fine with it and it was his choice. Even defends it.

And they should be able to make the decision after having experienced all sides, including knowing what it's like with all their mental faculties intact.

[Plaintiff]

leaguer of one wrote...
1. Tranquility is not an uniformed choice. They make it clear what it is hand how it feel. Even the tranquil can tell you this.

They do no such thing. You need emotions in order to feel, and the Tranquil don't have any.

2.Owen also makes it a to explain that he is fine with it and it was his choice. Even defends it.

Owain isn't "fine" with it. He's not able to make a value judgement at all, because he doesn't have emotions.

[leaguer of one]

Xilizhra wrote...

1. Tranquility is not an uniformed choice. They make it clear what it is hand how it feel. Even the tranquil can tell you this.

2.Owen also makes it a to explain that he is fine with it and it was his choice. Even defends it.

And they should be able to make the decision after having experienced all sides, including knowing what it's like with all their mental faculties intact.

'
As a tranqual they are still in a state of mind they can make choice. Logic is not repressed, emotions are. Undoing it when they choose to do goes ageinst there right of choice.

[Plaintiff]

leaguer of one wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

1. Tranquility is not an uniformed choice. They make it clear what it is hand how it feel. Even the tranquil can tell you this.

2.Owen also makes it a to explain that he is fine with it and it was his choice. Even defends it.

And they should be able to make the decision after having experienced all sides, including knowing what it's like with all their mental faculties intact.

'
As a tranqual they are still in a state of mind they can make choice. Logic is not repressed, emotions are. Undoing it when they choose to do goes ageinst there right of choice.

You can't have logic without emotions. Emotions are information. When you are deprived of your emotions, you are deprived of information that you need to truly make a logical, informed decision.

[leaguer of one]

Plaintiff wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
1. Tranquility is not an uniformed choice. They make it clear what it is hand how it feel. Even the tranquil can tell you this.

They do no such thing. You need emotions in order to feel, and the Tranquil don't have any.

2.Owen also makes it a to explain that he is fine with it and it was his choice. Even defends it.

Owain isn't "fine" with it. He's not able to make a value judgement at all, because he doesn't have emotions.

1. You don't need emotion to make choices. Having none does not mean you can't make choices.

2.Yes, he is . He make it a point with you when you try to argue with him about it to the point he says he agrees to disagree with you.

[Xilizhra]

leaguer of one wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

1. Tranquility is not an uniformed choice. They make it clear what it is hand how it feel. Even the tranquil can tell you this.

2.Owen also makes it a to explain that he is fine with it and it was his choice. Even defends it.

And they should be able to make the decision after having experienced all sides, including knowing what it's like with all their mental faculties intact.

'
As a tranqual they are still in a state of mind they can make choice. Logic is not repressed, emotions are. Undoing it when they choose to do goes ageinst there right of choice.

Emotions are part of one's mental faculties, not some weird "other." The Tranquil are fundamentally incomplete and not able to make decisions in a way that corresponds with their true selves.

[Thunderfox]

Filament wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Filament wrote...

I wasn't questioning what he wrote. It was more of an addendum, that people congratulating him for his neutrality are only so comfortable because at the moment they read a subtly pro-templar motive behind it, being that it only tears down the extreme of one side.

Good...Because it need to be torn down. It's not a black and white issue.

There are people who will make it a black and white issue, whether it be that freedom is always good, or that any level of oppression is justified to combat the existential threat of magic. So long as both of these are rejected by the narrative, I assume there will be no complaints?

None from this end. My Canon Warden was a Loyalist Mage, I'm well aware of the complexities involved, as long as its done better than in DA2

[Plaintiff]

leaguer of one wrote...
1. You don't need emotion to make choices. Having none does not mean you can't make choices.

2.Yes, he is . He make it a point with you when you try to argue with him about it to the point he says he agrees to disagree with you.

As a Tranquil, his opinion is automatically rendered worthless. He is missing a vital part of his cognitive faculties.

[Thunderfox]

Xilizhra wrote...

1. Tranquility is not an uniformed choice. They make it clear what it is hand how it feel. Even the tranquil can tell you this.

2.Owen also makes it a to explain that he is fine with it and it was his choice. Even defends it.

And they should be able to make the decision after having experienced all sides, including knowing what it's like with all their mental faculties intact.

So you're saying they're some how Mentally handicapped BEFOREHAND and thats why they choose (in some cases) to become Tranquil

[d-boy15]

A good read from lead writer turn in to stupid SSDD discussion about Templar and Mage.

[leaguer of one]

Plaintiff wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
Funny being that she is a new divine and trying to change chantry behavior.

If it wasn't for the fact that her most valuable resource was organizing to rebel against her, she wouldn't have bothered. The Chantry will do anything to maintain its own authority.

That still does not defere the fact the chantry does allow mages to do research. Even the Main character of Asunders when into detail over the research he was allowed to do.

The Chantry shouldn't be in a position to allow or forbid the mages anything. The Circle should be a secular organization. In fact,t the Chantry should be removed from the political sphere altogether.

Their plenty ways to combat them with out blood magic. It called the spirit magic school...

That is a complete and utter lie.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Four_Schools_of_Magic:_Spirit

Nowhere in that link does it say that Spirit Magic is effective against Demons. In fact, the school directly involves the summoning of spirits. Given that benevolent spirits prefer to ignore humans, the chance that a Spirit Mage might encounter a demon by mistake is high.

Sorry but do you have  a statement form the lore or game that show that most of them fail the Harrowing?

I didn't say 'most'. But nobody should be failing the Harrowing at all, not if they're being properly trained, as you claim they are.

1."If it wasn't for the fact that her most valuable resource was organizing to rebel against her, she wouldn't have bothered. The Chantry will do anything to maintain its own authority."

That mess was already there when she walked in. That about a 1000 years on muk on the wall over this. It her fault that she can reverse 100 of years of bad polocies over night?

2."The Chantry shouldn't be in a position to allow or forbid the mages anything. The Circle should be a secular organization. In fact,t the Chantry should be removed from the political sphere altogether."

Though I may not agree with there politiacl power, I do agree that some one has to regulate magic. Blood magic it self is like the ak 47 of the magic world. The chantry does need to change policy for them to not have all the control but blood magic need to be restracted reguardless.

3."That is a complete and utter lie.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Four_Schools_of_Magic:_Spirit

Nowhere in that link does it say that Spirit Magic is effective against Demons. In fact, the school directly involves the summoning of spirits. Given that benevolent spirits prefer to ignore humans, the chance that a Spirit Mage might encounter a demon by mistake is high."

No it not a lie. That is the ani magis tree. It counters all magic, even demon and blood magic and abilities.

4."
I didn't say 'most'. But nobody should be failing the Harrowing at all, not if they're being properly trained, as you claim they are."

Sorry, but they is no way to make so that mages are 100% resistant from demons. Even the one that pass the harrowing  must be vigilet and fight demons all there lives. It's a case that it would never be perfect.

[addiction21]

Plaintiff wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
1. You don't need emotion to make choices. Having none does not mean you can't make choices.

2.Yes, he is . He make it a point with you when you try to argue with him about it to the point he says he agrees to disagree with you.

As a Tranquil, his opinion is automatically rendered worthless. He is missing a vital part of his cognitive faculties.

He wasn't born Tranquil

[leaguer of one]

Plaintiff wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
1. You don't need emotion to make choices. Having none does not mean you can't make choices.

2.Yes, he is . He make it a point with you when you try to argue with him about it to the point he says he agrees to disagree with you.

As a Tranquil, his opinion is automatically rendered worthless. He is missing a vital part of his cognitive faculties.

Lack of emotion does not mean lack of choice. He opinions are still valid. If he choose to do it then is valid. It should only be reversed if it was forced.

[leaguer of one]

Xilizhra wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

1. Tranquility is not an uniformed choice. They make it clear what it is hand how it feel. Even the tranquil can tell you this.

2.Owen also makes it a to explain that he is fine with it and it was his choice. Even defends it.

And they should be able to make the decision after having experienced all sides, including knowing what it's like with all their mental faculties intact.

'
As a tranqual they are still in a state of mind they can make choice. Logic is not repressed, emotions are. Undoing it when they choose to do goes ageinst there right of choice.

Emotions are part of one's mental faculties, not some weird "other." The Tranquil are fundamentally incomplete and not able to make decisions in a way that corresponds with their true selves.

But emotion is not need for choice. In fact emotion is an instinct and can even hinder choice. The point is he still can make choices even with out emotions. That still make his points valid.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 30 septembre 2013 - 02:48 .

[Thunderfox]

addiction21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
1. You don't need emotion to make choices. Having none does not mean you can't make choices.

2.Yes, he is . He make it a point with you when you try to argue with him about it to the point he says he agrees to disagree with you.

As a Tranquil, his opinion is automatically rendered worthless. He is missing a vital part of his cognitive faculties.

He wasn't born Tranquil

Indeed. The idea of forcing someome to go through thei Harrowing who chooses not to is the Exact same sort of Fascist thinking people accuse the Chantry of doing.

I'm done with this "Debate"

Modifié par ThunderfoxF, 30 septembre 2013 - 02:48 .

[Plaintiff]

leaguer of one wrote...
That mess was already there when she walked in. That about a 1000 years on muk on the wall over this. It her fault that she can reverse 100 of years of bad polocies over night?

That has nothing to do with what I said at all. I'm not "blaming" Justinia for anything, I'm saying that if the situation wasn't desperate, she would've been just as oppressive as every Divine that came before her.

Though I may not agree with there politiacl power, I do agree that some one has to regulate magic. Blood magic it self is like the ak 47 of the magic world. The chantry does need to change policy for them to not have all the control but blood magic need to be restracted reguardless.

I never said magic shouldn't be regulated. But it shouldn't be regulated by an organization with a clear religious bias.

No it not a lie. That is the ani magis tree. It counters all magic, even demon and blood magic and abilities.

Nowhere has this ever been stated in the games or any of the supplementary media. You are making it up.

If you don't think you're making it up, provide a source, like I did.

Sorry, but they is no way to make so that mages are 100% resistant from demons. Even the one that pass the harrowing  must be vigilet and fight demons all there lives. It's a case that it would never be perfect.

The Circle doesn't even try to arm its students properly, it just lobotomizes, imprisons and kills them based on an arbitrary, subjective judgement of "weakness".

[Plaintiff]

addiction21 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
1. You don't need emotion to make choices. Having none does not mean you can't make choices.

2.Yes, he is . He make it a point with you when you try to argue with him about it to the point he says he agrees to disagree with you.

As a Tranquil, his opinion is automatically rendered worthless. He is missing a vital part of his cognitive faculties.

He wasn't born Tranquil

Irrelevent. He had no idea what being Tranquil was like, and now that he is Tranquil, he still has no idea what it's like, because he cannot feel.

The only way to make any sort of valid judgement is to experience Tranquility and then return to your normal state so you can examine your experience properly. And the only two people who've done that begged for death.

[CELL55]

Is there somewhere I can go between 'brutal oppression' and 'brutal anarchy'? 'Cos that would be great. DA2 tried to have moral complexities, but then killed off all the gray characters leaving only insane dictators, lunatic terrorists, and nuts who support serial killers and turn into demons at the the drop of a hat. Moral ambiguity only lasted in the story as long as the gray characters lived. By the end it seemed to me like a choice between 'Violent Lunatics A' and 'Violent Lunatics B'.

[Ryzaki]

CELL55 wrote...

Is there somewhere I can go between 'brutal oppression' and 'brutal anarchy'? 'Cos that would be great. DA2 tried to have moral complexities, but then killed off all the gray characters leaving only insane dictators, lunatic terrorists, and nuts who support serial killers and turn into demons at the the drop of a hat. Moral ambiguity only lasted in the story as long as the gray characters lived. By the end it seemed to me like a choice between 'Violent Lunatics A' and 'Violent Lunatics B'.

Agreed.

At the end of it I just wanted to nuke all of them and call it a day.

[Thunderfox]

Plaintiff wrote...

Sorry, but they is no way to make so that mages are 100% resistant from demons. Even the one that pass the harrowing  must be vigilet and fight demons all there lives. It's a case that it would never be perfect.

The Circle doesn't even try to arm its students properly, it just lobotomizes, imprisons and kills them based on an arbitrary, subjective judgement of "weakness".

Ok I Lied I'm back.

Look at Uldred, he was senior Enchanter and up there in the Ferelden Circle Hierarchy. Look at Orsino. He semi-condoned whats-his-name's necromantic experiments. There are plenty of examples of older, more experienced, "Stronger Mages" succumbing and becoming Abominations. So who then will "arm the students"? The Tevinter Magisters so they can teach Mage Supremacy and glory of Slavery?

Modifié par ThunderfoxF, 30 septembre 2013 - 03:15 .

[leaguer of one]

Plaintiff wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
That mess was already there when she walked in. That about a 1000 years on muk on the wall over this. It her fault that she can reverse 100 of years of bad polocies over night?

That has nothing to do with what I said at all. I'm not "blaming" Justinia for anything, I'm saying that if the situation wasn't desperate, she would've been just as oppressive as every Divine that came before her.

Though I may not agree with there politiacl power, I do agree that some one has to regulate magic. Blood magic it self is like the ak 47 of the magic world. The chantry does need to change policy for them to not have all the control but blood magic need to be restracted reguardless.

I never said magic shouldn't be regulated. But it shouldn't be regulated by an organization with a clear religious bias.

No it not a lie. That is the ani magis tree. It counters all magic, even demon and blood magic and abilities.

Nowhere has this ever been stated in the games or any of the supplementary media. You are making it up.

If you don't think you're making it up, provide a source, like I did.

Sorry, but they is no way to make so that mages are 100% resistant from demons. Even the one that pass the harrowing  must be vigilet and fight demons all there lives. It's a case that it would never be perfect.

The Circle doesn't even try to arm its students properly, it just lobotomizes, imprisons and kills them based on an arbitrary, subjective judgement of "weakness".

1. "That has nothing to do with what I said at all. I'm not "blaming" Justinia for anything, I'm saying that if the situation wasn't desperate, she would've been just as oppressive as every Divine that came before her."

How do you know that. The mages would vote whether or not to seperate form the chantry or not reguardless of the kirkwall rebellion.

2."I never said magic shouldn't be regulated. But it shouldn't be regulated by an organization with a clear religious bias." I at lease agree with this but that does not mean the resriction on blood magic goes with it.

3."Nowhere has this ever been stated in the games or any of the supplementary media. You are making it up.

If you don't think you're making it up, provide a source, like I did."

No I'm not...
http://dragonage.wik...spells_(Origins)

The fact we have dispell and anti magic ward proves my point.

4."The Circle doesn't even try to arm its students properly, it just lobotomizes, imprisons and kills them based on an arbitrary, subjective judgement of "weakness"."

The point of magic is not to be armed nor is it combat. It's a tool. You're also missing the fact here that mage are going to fight demons all there lives. They are going to have to be strong enough to face them or they fall to them. Nothing can get around this point. Because of this their is no 100% way to protect them.

[Plaintiff]

ThunderfoxF wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Sorry, but they is no way to make so that mages are 100% resistant from demons. Even the one that pass the harrowing  must be vigilet and fight demons all there lives. It's a case that it would never be perfect.

The Circle doesn't even try to arm its students properly, it just lobotomizes, imprisons and kills them based on an arbitrary, subjective judgement of "weakness".

Ok I Lied I'm back.

Look at Uldred, he was senior Enchanter and up there in the Ferelden Circle Hierarchy. Look at Orsino. He semi-condoned whats-his-name's necromantic experiments. There are plenty of examples of older, more experienced, "Stronger Mages" succumbing and becoming Abominations. So who then will "arm the students"? The Tevinter Magisters so they can teach Mage Supremacy and glory of Slavery?

If the end result is a reduction in demonic possessions, then sure, why not.

But given what we know of Tevinter, I don't think they'd be interested.

The Circle has had a thousand years to develop better methods of repelling demons. That it hasn't done so is a flaw of the system.