2497 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

ianvillan wrote...
Without mages you would not be able to do the joining so no more grey wardens,

Debatable. Both on the necessity of mages and that of grey wardens but that's a different topic altogether.

and non-mage people cannot touch lyrium or they go insane.

 Not exactly, raw lyrium is dangerous for humans and elves and outright deadly for mages. Dwarves can process it into a form that can be handled by anyone altough it's still dangerous.
The humans already have a contract with Orzammar. If the mages are gone, all that means is that other uses for lyrium can be found such as replicating magical effects like the Joining and mending the Veil.

So you suggest that the way to fix it is to deal with demons but say mages are dangerous because of demons.

 Mages are dangerous for a multitude of reason, demonic possession being only one of them. All I'm saying is that there are alternatives to going crying to the mages for help.

We know that demons can possess non mages

 They can, they just don't have any interest into and actually have to be attracted in order to do so.
Plus, a possessed normal would be less dangerous than a possessed mage due to the lack of magical abilities.

so we should have lots of non mages who have no experience with demons or haven't undergone the harrowing calling up demons without any problems.

Normals can't summon demons.

[ianvillan]

MisterJB wrote...

Debatable. Both on the necessity of mages and that of grey wardens but that's a different topic altogether.

 Not exactly, raw lyrium is dangerous for humans and elves and outright deadly for mages. Dwarves can process it into a form that can be handled by anyone although it's still dangerous.
The humans already have a contract with Orzammar. If the mages are gone, all that means is that other uses for lyrium can be found such as replicating magical effects like the Joining and mending the Veil.

Normals can't summon demons.

If normal cant summon demons then where are all the demons coming from to bargain with to fix the veil.

And you want Dwarves who have no magical talent or knowledge to create a magical device to close the veil or replicate the joining.

[MisterJB]

ianvillan wrote...
If normal cant summon demons then where are all the demons coming from to bargain with to fix the veil.

From the tear in the Veil.

 

And you want Dwarves who have no magical talent or knowledge to create a magical device to close the veil or replicate the joining.

Just like Caridin created the golems and Master Wade can apply a fire rune to Vigilance despite both having no magic whatsoever. And, I'm not too sure, but I believe Dworkin's bombs were also lyrium based.
Lyrium can be perfectly manipulated to replicate magical effects in the hands of a skilled enough Normal.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 octobre 2013 - 11:52 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
....

1.Well as i said overseer in store is most suspicious ever i mean what next librarian in library?

2.Well first real flamerhrower is much powerful than mage one unless we talk about homemade version i don't think that was problem if you have shield what effectively blocks that and well anti-magic equipment.

3.Well if he can not beat few mercenaries not so powerful at all.

4.well do you know other tactics to kills some one with sword but still proves that spells aren't that powerful and hard to avoid.

5.if you face to face your enemies and still you loose especially they are just normal mercenaries you aren't powerful at all. 

6.Well i seen someone posting examples from world of thedas but i don't have it but well just look on da 2.
About that power corrupts depends on the individual but blood magic seems to me like dark side not everyone gets nuts as*** but most yes.

dragonflight288 wrote...
...

1.That depends on what you see as weak as frar im not impresed by little glowing balls or weak flamethrowers only fireball to me qualifies as spell not just lighting bonfires and still cannons wins with that. 

2.if someone is blind it may be hard shoot target what goes straight on you and well don't forget sketch was trained mage in combat.

Silfren wrote...

...

1.True but she is still another example but a lot mages seems have to phobia.
2.yeah throwing small piece of ice greathest power evah   madara couldn't have a chance

[dragonflight288]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]ianvillan wrote...
If normal cant summon demons then where are all the demons coming from to bargain with to fix the veil. [/quote]
From the tear in the Veil.[/quote]



The main reason mages are feared is because of the chance of their risk of getting possessed by demons. We know from Wardens Keep with Sophia that even non-mages are capable of getting possessed when demons are near. We know from Lady Herriman, whom the game makes quite clear that she is not a mage that demons can give mundanes at least some ability to use blood magic.

But let me get this straight....are you actually suggesting that if we rid the world of all mages (and thus committed genocide) that the way to fix the veil tears themselves would be to have a untrained, unprepared, unharrowed mundanes go up to a land filling up with demons and asking those demons to mend the veil? In other words, is it true that what you are asking is that we allow untrained non-magicals to walk up to a horde of demons and try to make a deal with them? If I'm wrong, let me know, but any deal with a demon is a horrible idea, let alone a horde of them.

They wouldn't be trained because there wouldn't be any mages left, and it's the mages who have the most experience dealing with demons.

[quote]
[quote]And you want Dwarves who have no magical talent or knowledge to create a magical device to close the veil or replicate the joining. [/quote]
Just like Caridin created the golems and Master Wade can apply a fire rune to Vigilance despite both having no magic whatsoever. And, I'm not too sure, but I believe Dworkin's bombs were also lyrium based.
Lyrium can be perfectly manipulated to replicate magical effects in the hands of a skilled enough Normal.[/quote][/quote]

*sigh* Dwarves have an innate resistance to lyrium, but not too much, they can't breathe it in and they shouldn't get it directly in the blood...so it has its risks for them as well. As for Wade...are you suggesting that he try and emulate Caradin's research with Golems? Do you have ANY idea how many lives will be lost before the process is perfected? It's just as bad an idea for humans to have Golems as it is to allow Branka to have them. It'll be a blood bath, which in turn will also weaken the veil.

[MisterJB]

I think you just gave me a brilliant idea.
Magic is useful, no one denies this. Killing all mages would be wasting resources and it could place the Southern kingdoms at a disadvantage against Tevinter or the Qunari.
On the other hand, I'd say the average golem is more dangerous than the average mages. And golems have control rods that allows one perfect control over them.

Therefore, let's just turn all mages into golems! They'll retain their usefulness but won't be a danger anymore! It's brilliant!

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:45 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
We know from the lore that blood mages aren't the only ones capable of sundering the veil. The Veil in the Brecilian forest was sundered due to war long ago. The Rivaini Chantry sundered the veil with their localized Exalted March on the Qunari who refused to leave because the violence and slaughter was so large-scale.

In the games, books and comics, I have yet to see a single instance, or even hear rumors of a single instance, of a non-mage being able to mend the veil where it is torn. You'd need someone with a great deal of experience with the Fade, likely a Spirit Mage, but you would need a mage.

Hum-hum. You need magic but mages aren't the only things with magic in Thedas. Lyrium and demons also possess that ability.
In Warden's Keep, a non-mage Warden is perfectably capable of tricking a demon into mending the Veil and there are smiths skilled enough to be able to use lyrium to produce effects remarkably close to magic; if it became urgent, it shouldn't be impossible to be able to use lyrium to mend the Veil.
Bottom line, even if all mage suddenly dropped dead, there would still be options.

Would you be willing to bet countless lives on this? 

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
Without mages you would not be able to do the joining so no more grey wardens,

Debatable. Both on the necessity of mages and that of grey wardens but that's a different topic altogether.

and non-mage people cannot touch lyrium or they go insane.

 Not exactly, raw lyrium is dangerous for humans and elves and outright deadly for mages. Dwarves can process it into a form that can be handled by anyone altough it's still dangerous.
The humans already have a contract with Orzammar. If the mages are gone, all that means is that other uses for lyrium can be found such as replicating magical effects like the Joining and mending the Veil.

Still though, there is no guarantee that either would be possible.  One does not destroy the only known options they have for mending the veil and creating the Joining, and THEN look for alternatives. 

Serious question:  On what grounds is it debateable that the Grey Wardens are necessary for ending Blights and mages for the Joining itself?

Modifié par Silfren, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:48 .

[Silfren]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
....

1.Well as i said overseer in store is most suspicious ever i mean what next librarian in library?

You're getting well away from their original point, which was that the woman overseeing the stockroom didn't want to leave her post because she was new to it and was afraid of appearing incompetent and losing her position.  There's no need for all this sidewinding of "why would an overseer overseeing her stockroom look suspicious"  That's the explanation given by the woman, and it doesn't need a great deal of analysis.  She didn't want to leave her post to clean out the spiders herself so she sent the Warden to do it.

2.Well first real flamerhrower is much powerful than mage one unless we talk about homemade version i don't think that was problem if you have shield what effectively blocks that and well anti-magic equipment.

You're just making things up now.  There's no lore comparing mages to flamethrowers, obviously, and at this point your entire argument is devolving into "mages are weak because I think they are,"

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

I think you just gave me a brilliant idea.
Magic is useful, no one denies this. Killing all mages would be wasting resources and it could place the Southern kingdoms at a disadvantage against Tevinter or the Qunari.
On the other hand, I'd say the average golem is more dangerous than the average mages. And golems have control rods that allows one perfect control over them.

Therefore, let's just turn all mages into golems! They'll retain their usefulness but won't be a danger anymore! It's brilliant!

I can't tell if you're offering serious suggestions as alternatives to mages or not, now.  None of these ideas have been very thought out, either way.  

[DKJaigen]

Silfren wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
We know from the lore that blood mages aren't the only ones capable of sundering the veil. The Veil in the Brecilian forest was sundered due to war long ago. The Rivaini Chantry sundered the veil with their localized Exalted March on the Qunari who refused to leave because the violence and slaughter was so large-scale.

In the games, books and comics, I have yet to see a single instance, or even hear rumors of a single instance, of a non-mage being able to mend the veil where it is torn. You'd need someone with a great deal of experience with the Fade, likely a Spirit Mage, but you would need a mage.

Hum-hum. You need magic but mages aren't the only things with magic in Thedas. Lyrium and demons also possess that ability.
In Warden's Keep, a non-mage Warden is perfectably capable of tricking a demon into mending the Veil and there are smiths skilled enough to be able to use lyrium to produce effects remarkably close to magic; if it became urgent, it shouldn't be impossible to be able to use lyrium to mend the Veil.
Bottom line, even if all mage suddenly dropped dead, there would still be options.

Would you be willing to bet countless lives on this? 

He does .and he does so in complete ignorance without knowing the bounderies of magic so his solution may not work at all or is non existant. But he forgets that the red templars are a far greater danger to humanity then the mages ever where.  they are willingly opening fade tears for whatever reason but its quite clear that somebody who has a better understanding on magic that the circle of magi has corrupted the templar order.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

I think you just gave me a brilliant idea.
Magic is useful, no one denies this. Killing all mages would be wasting resources and it could place the Southern kingdoms at a disadvantage against Tevinter or the Qunari.
On the other hand, I'd say the average golem is more dangerous than the average mages. And golems have control rods that allows one perfect control over them.

Therefore, let's just turn all mages into golems! They'll retain their usefulness but won't be a danger anymore! It's brilliant!

What?

Do you that:
1.Making a Golem is blood magic.

2.Golems are far less power full or tactical then Mages.

3. That a proper mage can take down a Golem.


Added, before ding that to someone ...Do it to yourself.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The main reason mages are feared is because of the chance of their risk of getting possessed by demons.

I'm sure that if you were to ask 10 people why they fear mages, you would get 10 different answers.
 

We know from Wardens Keep with Sophia that even non-mages are capable of getting possessed when demons are near.

Her corpse was possessed. We know that once a demon leaves the Fade, the unfamiliar terrain where everything is static might lead to it becoming confused and possessing corpses or trees thinking they are living beings.
A demon has no interest in Normals because, unlike a tree, a Normal will fight back. We've never actually seen a demon working towards possessing a Normal.

We know from Lady Herriman, whom the game makes quite clear that she is not a mage that demons can give mundanes at least some ability to use blood magic.

But let me get this straight....are you actually suggesting that if we rid the world of all mages (and thus committed genocide) that the way to fix the veil tears themselves would be to have a untrained, unprepared, unharrowed mundanes go up to a land filling up with demons and asking those demons to mend the veil? In other words, is it true that what you are asking is that we allow untrained non-magicals to walk up to a horde of demons and try to make a deal with them? If I'm wrong, let me know, but any deal with a demon is a horrible idea, let alone a horde of them.

They wouldn't be trained because there wouldn't be any mages left, and it's the mages who have the most experience dealing with demons.

I'm not saying that it's something that should be done ligthly or that we should honor agreements with demons, but I don't see why we should refuse this off-hand. Demons can be tricked, they can be fooled.
If Avernus demanded that he be left to experiment in peace in return for mending the Veil, I would rather fool "Sophia" than become dependant upon him.
It's an alternative, that's all I'm saying.

*sigh* Dwarves have an innate resistance to lyrium, but not too much, they can't breathe it in and they shouldn't get it directly in the blood...so it has its risks for them as well. As for Wade...are you suggesting that he try and emulate Caradin's research with Golems? Do you have ANY idea how many lives will be lost before the process is perfected? It's just as bad an idea for humans to have Golems as it is to allow Branka to have them. It'll be a blood bath, which in turn will also weaken the veil.

No, what I am saying is that it's possible for skilled Normals to manipulate lyrium to reproduce magical effects, perhaps even the Joining.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Silfren wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
....

1.Well as i said overseer in store is most suspicious ever i mean what next librarian in library?

You're getting well away from their original point, which was that the woman overseeing the stockroom didn't want to leave her post because she was new to it and was afraid of appearing incompetent and losing her position.  There's no need for all this sidewinding of "why would an overseer overseeing her stockroom look suspicious"  That's the explanation given by the woman, and it doesn't need a great deal of analysis.  She didn't want to leave her post to clean out the spiders herself so she sent the Warden to do it.

2.Well first real flamerhrower is much powerful than mage one unless we talk about homemade version i don't think that was problem if you have shield what effectively blocks that and well anti-magic equipment.

You're just making things up now.  There's no lore comparing mages to flamethrowers, obviously, and at this point your entire argument is devolving into "mages are weak because I think they are,"

lol she was overseer she could go there and even should she didn't sorry dude but spiders in store are bigger problem that i went to store.And that was her problem she couldn't solve that and warden helped her.

2.Nope real flamethrower have longer range than mage have much much longer.Mages are weak because their butt is kicked by most peoples with combat traning and they are slaves like almost 1000 years.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Made mages a golem is not so bad idea if you don't care what they feel but for me thats di*** better kill them and spare suffering.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Would you be willing to bet countless lives on this?

No, I'd test it first, of course.
But I'd rather not rely upon the good will of strangers.

Silfren wrote...
Still though, there is no guarantee that either would be possible.  One does not destroy the only known options they have for mending the veil and creating the Joining, and THEN look for alternatives. 

Agreed.

Serious question:  On what grounds is it debateable that the Grey Wardens are necessary for ending Blights and mages for the Joining itself?

We are told some spells are needed for the Joining but no one ever specified their purpose. As far as we know, all they do is increase the odds you survive. And even if magic is absolutely necessary, we know that lyrium is magical. It is possible the same effect could be achieve without the use of mages.

As for the Wardens, I've already presented a scenario where one wouldn't need them to stop the Bligths. At this stage of technological advacement, it wouldn't be possible in Thedas but on Earth, we wouldn't have much trouble dealing with the Darkspawn.

Silfren wrote...
I can't tell if you're offering serious suggestions as alternatives to mages or not, now. None of these ideas have been very thought out, either way.

And what would the problem with my plan of turning all mages into golems be? Other than that many would consider it to be immoral, of course.

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...



2.Nope real flamethrower have longer range than mage have much much longer.Mages are weak because their butt is kicked by most peoples with combat traning and they are slaves like almost 1000 years.

No they don't. A Mage can throw a fire ball at any distance added the attacks they can do with the staff and fire storm spells.

 The fact that you can't rain down fire form the sky with a flame thower mean it's a lesser weapon to magic.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
The main reason mages are feared is because of the chance of their risk of getting possessed by demons.

I'm sure that if you were to ask 10 people why they fear mages, you would get 10 different answers.
 

We know from Wardens Keep with Sophia that even non-mages are capable of getting possessed when demons are near.

Her corpse was possessed. We know that once a demon leaves the Fade, the unfamiliar terrain where everything is static might lead to it becoming confused and possessing corpses or trees thinking they are living beings.
A demon has no interest in Normals because, unlike a tree, a Normal will fight back. We've never actually seen a demon working towards possessing a Normal.

Um.  Yes, we have?  Several times?

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Made mages a golem is not so bad idea if you don't care what they feel but for me thats di*** better kill them and spare suffering.

And that it's blood magic.

And that it's weaker then a mage.

[Medhia Nox]

MisterJB: If I were to take the most pragmatic approach to your statement, I would say that humans/elves are FAR more easy to manipulate than demons - making mages FAR safer to deal with.

They're also far less alien. Not a single Thedosian mage understands demons - yet people on these boards think they do. Demons and spirits must be left where they belong and never associated or bargained with, crushed if they attempt to interact (spirits would understand why), and any mage who seeks collusion with Fade entities is guilty of subversion of mortal-kind.

And all that ignores the obviously terrible idea of genocide against the mage population.

[dragonflight288]

Her corpse was possessed. We know that once a demon leaves the Fade, the unfamiliar terrain where everything is static might lead to it becoming confused and possessing corpses or trees thinking they are living beings.
A demon has no interest in Normals because, unlike a tree, a Normal will fight back. We've never actually seen a demon working towards possessing a Normal.

Where is it stated, ANYWHERE, that she died before she was possessed? Hmm? I have looked through her codex and the played through Warden's Keep plenty of times. There is no evidence she was dead before she was possessed.

We can also go to Broken Circle and see that templar who was ensorcelled by a desire demon. There are templars ensorcelled by a desire demon in Kirkwall's Annulment as well.

We also have demons possessing trees and becoming sylvans, demons possessing corpses, and the more powerful ones becoming revenants, and demons who possess absolutely nothing and become shades.

It cannot be said in any form of seriousness that demons have no interest in normals. They are drawn to mages because of their power, but once through the veil, there is a lot of evidence that demons will then possess the first thing they come across. Heck, the desire demon in Stone's Calling tries possessing Amalia, and I'm not sure that little idiotic girl is a mage or just the first person Kitty came across after Wilhelm and wanted to possess her.

Heck, the mage warden can ask Mouse, Valor AND Sloth in the origin, and they talk about dreamers (non-mages) that demons are interested in, and that's what makes them want to experiene the mortal world. Justice in Awakening talks about how demons want to experience the mortal world.

Their interest in mages only is there because mages are the most convenient route. Once here, they couldn't care less about the mage.

And we do have an example of a demon working on a normal. Lady Herriman. The game makes it very clear that she is not a mage. But the desire demon was able to grant her blood magic abilities, and played on her desires to her own ends. It my not have been about possession, but that desire demon was actively working on a normal for her own ends.

[Medhia Nox]

@dragonflight288: this begs the question.

What will those demons coming through the Veil tears seek to possess?

[TheKomandorShepard]

leaguer of one wrote...

No they don't. A Mage can throw a fire ball at any distance added the attacks they can do with the staff and fire storm spells.

 The fact that you can't rain down fire form the sky with a flame thower mean it's a lesser weapon to magic.

3:10 powerful and terrifying power of mages hidde everyone hide they will annoy us with their balls.

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Made
mages a golem is not so bad idea if you don't care what they feel but
for me thats di*** better kill them and spare suffering.

And that it's blood magic.

And that it's weaker then a mage.

Hmm what unstoppable forces with super strengs what don't need eat and sleep and never got tired and are obedient vs guys who get their ass kicked most of times with great risk of possession only mage advantage is healing.  

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: this begs the question.

What will those demons coming through the Veil tears seek to possess?

If it's in a forest, we may have a lot more sylvans, if they're in a battlefield (since veil tears require a great deal of blood without blood mages) then you'll have a lot of walking corpses. Get a powerful Desire Demon or Pride Demon, and they won't need to possess anything, and will be able to summon more demons and build up an army of the walking dead.

Then they'd go invade the world or film "The Walking Dead."

[leaguer of one]

Ofcourse normal human can become possessed by Demons. Much of the templars in the mage tower we fought in DAO proves that being they were possessed by demons.