2497 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

Ofcourse normal human can become possessed by Demons. Much of the templars in the mage tower we fought in DAO proves that being they were possessed by demons.

[Silfren]

[quote]TheKomandorShepard wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...

[quote]TheKomandorShepard wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
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1.Well as i said overseer in store is most suspicious ever i mean what next librarian in library?[/quote]

You're getting well away from their original point, which was that the woman overseeing the stockroom didn't want to leave her post because she was new to it and was afraid of appearing incompetent and losing her position.  There's no need for all this sidewinding of "why would an overseer overseeing her stockroom look suspicious"  That's the explanation given by the woman, and it doesn't need a great deal of analysis.  She didn't want to leave her post to clean out the spiders herself so she sent the Warden to do it.

[quote]2.Well first real flamerhrower is much powerful than mage one unless we talk about homemade version i don't think that was problem if you have shield what effectively blocks that and well anti-magic equipment.[/quote]

You're just making things up now.  There's no lore comparing mages to flamethrowers, obviously, and at this point your entire argument is devolving into "mages are weak because I think they are,"
[/quote]

lol she was overseer she could go there and even should she didn't sorry dude but spiders in store are bigger problem that i went to store.And that was her problem she couldn't solve that and warden helped her.[/quote]

What the hell are you even trying to say, here?  I'm aware that the stockroom keeper could have and should have cleaned out the spiders, as it was her responsibility.  But the fact is, she DID NOT WANT TO, so she sent the Warden to do it.  What the hell is your point in arguing about this, seriously?  

[quote]2.Nope real flamethrower have longer range than mage have much much longer.Mages are weak because their butt is kicked by most peoples with combat traning and they are slaves like almost 1000 years.[/quote]

Because you totally know the range of a mages' ability to lob fireballs, right? But no, mages' lack of combat training doesn't say anything about their magical ability.  The Chantry has an obvious vested interest in not letting mages be trained in combat, but this doesn't say ANYTHING about the raw power of magic itself.  And the whole damned point according to the Chantry is that mages' enslavement is necessary because of the raw destructive power of magic. 

If you don't think mages are up to your standards, that's one thing.  But you need to accept that it is strictly your opinion and never, anywhere, supported by the lore.  You are simply incorrect on this one.  The entire bloody point of the story is that magic is a very powerful force.



[/quote]

[TheKomandorShepard]

[quote]Silfren wrote...

[quote]TheKomandorShepard wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...

[quote]TheKomandorShepard wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
....
[/quote]

1.Well as i said overseer in store is most suspicious ever i mean what next librarian in library?[/quote]

You're getting well away from their original point, which was that the woman overseeing the stockroom didn't want to leave her post because she was new to it and was afraid of appearing incompetent and losing her position.  There's no need for all this sidewinding of "why would an overseer overseeing her stockroom look suspicious"  That's the explanation given by the woman, and it doesn't need a great deal of analysis.  She didn't want to leave her post to clean out the spiders herself so she sent the Warden to do it.

[quote]2.Well first real flamerhrower is much powerful than mage one unless we talk about homemade version i don't think that was problem if you have shield what effectively blocks that and well anti-magic equipment.[/quote]

You're just making things up now.  There's no lore comparing mages to flamethrowers, obviously, and at this point your entire argument is devolving into "mages are weak because I think they are,"
[/quote]

lol she was overseer she could go there and even should she didn't sorry dude but spiders in store are bigger problem that i went to store.And that was her problem she couldn't solve that and warden helped her.[/quote]

What the hell are you even trying to say, here?  I'm aware that the stockroom keeper could have and should have cleaned out the spiders, as it was her responsibility.  But the fact is, she DID NOT WANT TO, so she sent the Warden to do it.  What the hell is your point in arguing about this, seriously?  

[quote]2.Nope real flamethrower have longer range than mage have much much longer.Mages are weak because their butt is kicked by most peoples with combat traning and they are slaves like almost 1000 years.[/quote]

Because you totally know the range of a mages' ability to lob fireballs, right? But no, mages' lack of combat training doesn't say anything about their magical ability.  The Chantry has an obvious vested interest in not letting mages be trained in combat, but this doesn't say ANYTHING about the raw power of magic itself.  And the whole damned point according to the Chantry is that mages' enslavement is necessary because of the raw destructive power of magic. 

If you don't think mages are up to your standards, that's one thing.  But you need to accept that it is strictly your opinion and never, anywhere, supported by the lore.  You are simply incorrect on this one.  The entire bloody point of the story is that magic is a very powerful force.



[/quote]
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That was her problem and couldn't handle that before the warden so...

as i said devs can tell me that mages are powerful but i seen only loosing on their side and always if we want them win we must help them unless they are blood mages or abomnations and mages are dangerous because abomnations and blood magic.

[MisterJB]

Medhia Nox wrote...

MisterJB: If I were to take the most pragmatic approach to your statement, I would say that humans/elves are FAR more easy to manipulate than demons - making mages FAR safer to deal with.

They're also far less alien. Not a single Thedosian mage understands demons - yet people on these boards think they do. Demons and spirits must be left where they belong and never associated or bargained with, crushed if they attempt to interact (spirits would understand why), and any mage who seeks collusion with Fade entities is guilty of subversion of mortal-kind.

And all that ignores the obviously terrible idea of genocide against the mage population.

I disagree. Unlike mages, demons are politically neutral and lack an history of conflict with non-mages which means reaching an agreement with it will be easier. They are also less complex than an entire population of individuals which means its goals can be more easily predicted and countered. They also lack allies meaning one can trap one demon and not fear a rescue mission. And if everything goes well, we will trick the demon, kill it and be rid of the problem. By working with mages, we're talking about making concession that we will have to abide by in the future or deal with the reprisals.

[dragonflight288]

as i said devs can tell me that mages are powerful but i seen only loosing on their side and always if we want them win we must help them unless they are blood mages or abomnations and mages are dangerous because abomnations and blood magic.

*shakes head*

https://encrypted-tb...4U17YLusfRAzfQw

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: this begs the question.

What will those demons coming through the Veil tears seek to possess?

The stronger ones will keep their physical forms while the weaker demons will probaly possess anything or anyone they can find.

[MisterJB]

People, there is a difference between "possessed" and "enthralled" or "seduced".
Lady Harriman was seduced by the promises of a demon but she was not possessed. The templars in both Annulments were enthralled by demons but not a single one was possessed.
The only possessed normals we've seen became so because a mage forced the demon into their flesh. Unless I'm forgetting some instance; which is possible; we've never seen a demon activelly working towards possessing a normal person.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Would you be willing to bet countless lives on this?

No, I'd test it first, of course.
But I'd rather not rely upon the good will of strangers.

Silfren wrote...
Still though, there is no guarantee that either would be possible.  One does not destroy the only known options they have for mending the veil and creating the Joining, and THEN look for alternatives. 

Agreed.

Serious question:  On what grounds is it debateable that the Grey Wardens are necessary for ending Blights and mages for the Joining itself?

We are told some spells are needed for the Joining but no one ever specified their purpose. As far as we know, all they do is increase the odds you survive. And even if magic is absolutely necessary, we know that lyrium is magical. It is possible the same effect could be achieve without the use of mages.

As for the Wardens, I've already presented a scenario where one wouldn't need them to stop the Bligths. At this stage of technological advacement, it wouldn't be possible in Thedas but on Earth, we wouldn't have much trouble dealing with the Darkspawn.

No, actually, you only posited YOUR IDEA of a scenario.  There is no way of knowing what actually would happen, if the archdemon would simply die if there were no Tainted beings for its soul to fly to.  And only a suicidal fool would willingly rid themselves of a proven method for destroying the archdemon for one that we have no idea would work or not, especially if the new lack of mages, Grey Wardens, and available pre-prepared Joining blood made it impossible to revert back to the old tried and true method should this new idea turn out to be bunk.

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I can't tell if you're offering serious suggestions as alternatives to mages or not, now. None of these ideas have been very thought out, either way.

And what would the problem with my plan of turning all mages into golems be? Other than that many would consider it to be immoral, of course.

You can't see that there's something wrong with the assertion that because magic is inherently dangerous, demons are bad news, and people who use magic tend to put themselves in power over others...and then saying you want to get rid of all mages so that the people left can play with those bad news demons, find new ways to use this inherently dangerous magic, and use this newfangled mundane-accessible magic to...put themselves in power over others? 

I mean, coming from you, the whole "power corrupts" thing is inevitable, right?  People will always seek to dominate others? And yet you can't see that under your own fatalistic concept of the way people inevitably operate...you're just trading one demon for another?  The thing about having mundanes work with demons is especially rich given you seem to think that demonic possession is the most dangerous thing about magic in the first place.  It's ridiculous that you're so desperate to find a means for mundanes to be rid of mages that you'd go so far as to recommend this as an option.  It's a classic literary trope, but ironic as hell coming from you.

Modifié par Silfren, 14 octobre 2013 - 04:49 .

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

MisterJB: If I were to take the most pragmatic approach to your statement, I would say that humans/elves are FAR more easy to manipulate than demons - making mages FAR safer to deal with.

They're also far less alien. Not a single Thedosian mage understands demons - yet people on these boards think they do. Demons and spirits must be left where they belong and never associated or bargained with, crushed if they attempt to interact (spirits would understand why), and any mage who seeks collusion with Fade entities is guilty of subversion of mortal-kind.

And all that ignores the obviously terrible idea of genocide against the mage population.

I disagree. Unlike mages, demons are politically neutral and lack an history of conflict with non-mages which means reaching an agreement with it will be easier. They are also less complex than an entire population of individuals which means its goals can be more easily predicted and countered. They also lack allies meaning one can trap one demon and not fear a rescue mission. And if everything goes well, we will trick the demon, kill it and be rid of the problem. By working with mages, we're talking about making concession that we will have to abide by in the future or deal with the reprisals.

The irony of your post is delicious.You claim mages are dangerous because of demons, yet you want to make deals with demons because you believe it's better than working with mages.If you take that route then you would be the biggest hypocrite of all time.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

MisterJB: If I were to take the most pragmatic approach to your statement, I would say that humans/elves are FAR more easy to manipulate than demons - making mages FAR safer to deal with.

They're also far less alien. Not a single Thedosian mage understands demons - yet people on these boards think they do. Demons and spirits must be left where they belong and never associated or bargained with, crushed if they attempt to interact (spirits would understand why), and any mage who seeks collusion with Fade entities is guilty of subversion of mortal-kind.

And all that ignores the obviously terrible idea of genocide against the mage population.

I disagree. Unlike mages, demons are politically neutral and lack an history of conflict with non-mages which means reaching an agreement with it will be easier. They are also less complex than an entire population of individuals which means its goals can be more easily predicted and countered. They also lack allies meaning one can trap one demon and not fear a rescue mission. And if everything goes well, we will trick the demon, kill it and be rid of the problem. By working with mages, we're talking about making concession that we will have to abide by in the future or deal with the reprisals.

Mr. Sloth Demon says hello.  Also, demons have been shown to be VERY shrewd and manipulative.  I wouldn't go counting on the average person's ability to withstand their temptation.  And I'm going by YOUR ideas about how susceptible people are to the lure of power, so...

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

People, there is a difference between "possessed" and "enthralled" or "seduced".
Lady Harriman was seduced by the promises of a demon but she was not possessed. The templars in both Annulments were enthralled by demons but not a single one was possessed.
The only possessed normals we've seen became so because a mage forced the demon into their flesh. Unless I'm forgetting some instance; which is possible; we've never seen a demon activelly working towards possessing a normal person.

Demons possess the first thing they see once crossing the Veil.What makes you think non mages would be exempt from that?

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

as i said devs can tell me that mages are powerful but i seen only loosing on their side and always if we want them win we must help them unless they are blood mages or abomnations and mages are dangerous because abomnations and blood magic.

*shakes head*

https://encrypted-tb...4U17YLusfRAzfQw

That means that mages are losing side unless they go into blood magic or become abomnation in second case they don't have side and kill everything in first they go nuts in most cases reminds me dark side.

[dragonflight288]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

as i said devs can tell me that mages are powerful but i seen only loosing on their side and always if we want them win we must help them unless they are blood mages or abomnations and mages are dangerous because abomnations and blood magic.

*shakes head*

https://encrypted-tb...4U17YLusfRAzfQw

That means that mages are losing side unless they go into blood magic or become abomnation in second case they don't have side and kill everything in first they go nuts in most cases reminds me dark side.

There's no evidence the mages are losing. None.

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

as i said devs can tell me that mages are powerful but i seen only loosing on their side and always if we want them win we must help them unless they are blood mages or abomnations and mages are dangerous because abomnations and blood magic.

*shakes head*

https://encrypted-tb...4U17YLusfRAzfQw

That means that mages are losing side unless they go into blood magic or become abomnation in second case they don't have side and kill everything in first they go nuts in most cases reminds me dark side.

There's no evidence the mages are losing. None.

well play game then

[dragonflight288]

well play game then smilie

Because the whole world is on the brink of collapse and the whole game is about saving the world from itself. The devs pointed out that the game won't focus on the mage/templar war, but it will be a large part of it.

Add in the Qunari, the dragons, Morrigan coming back (right there is a reason to preorder and play the game,) The Orlesian Civil war and the Elven uprising, and you have a lot of reasons to play the game without mages and templars.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
The irony of your post is delicious.You claim mages are dangerous because of demons, yet you want to make deals with demons because you believe it's better than working with mages.If you take that route then you would be the biggest hypocrite of all time.

The risk of possession is only one of the reasons mages are dangerous and not even the more worrisome one, as far as I am concerned.
If country A is scared of country B because they have really powerful weapons and, in order to protect themselves, they decide to also build their powerful weapons is that hipocrisy or common sense?

[Silfren]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Think of it like this.

Who do you think your average Joe is going to side with? The templars that, for all he knows are protecting him from walking time bombs? Or the walking time bombs that can accidentally turn into abominations?

The Red Templars may well be doing a lot to squander public belief about the templars serving the public good, though.

[dragonflight288]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Think of it like this.

Who do you think your average Joe is going to side with? The templars that, for all he knows are protecting him from walking time bombs? Or the walking time bombs that can accidentally turn into abominations?

I think average Joe would be more frightened of the Red Templars raiding his town, taking all his valuable to buy lyrium, and possibly doing unspeakable horrors to his wife and daughter, especially since the Chantry let the mages go in the first place.

[Medhia Nox]

@MisterJB: You're familiar with Awakening where a Pride demon trapped an entire landscape in a hell world yes?

Or... the Sloth demon in the Codex description that destroyed a town with lethargy and apathy?

I'm sorry, but I think you're assessment of demon-kind is terribly off base.

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: You're familiar with Awakening where a Pride demon trapped an entire landscape in a hell world yes?

Or... the Sloth demon in the Codex description that destroyed a town with lethargy and apathy?

I'm sorry, but I think you're assessment of demon-kind is terribly off base.

That was actually the baroness, and she was possessed after taking the whole town there.

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
The irony of your post is delicious.You claim mages are dangerous because of demons, yet you want to make deals with demons because you believe it's better than working with mages.If you take that route then you would be the biggest hypocrite of all time.

The risk of possession is only one of the reasons mages are dangerous and not even the more worrisome one, as far as I am concerned.
If country A is scared of country B because they have really powerful weapons and, in order to protect themselves, they decide to also build their powerful weapons is that hipocrisy or common sense?

That's realisms flawed approach to defense, leading to arms races and the military industrial complex.

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisterJB wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

MisterJB: If I were to take the most pragmatic approach to your statement, I would say that humans/elves are FAR more easy to manipulate than demons - making mages FAR safer to deal with.

They're also far less alien. Not a single Thedosian mage understands demons - yet people on these boards think they do. Demons and spirits must be left where they belong and never associated or bargained with, crushed if they attempt to interact (spirits would understand why), and any mage who seeks collusion with Fade entities is guilty of subversion of mortal-kind.

And all that ignores the obviously terrible idea of genocide against the mage population.

I disagree. Unlike mages, demons are politically neutral and lack an history of conflict with non-mages which means reaching an agreement with it will be easier. They are also less complex than an entire population of individuals which means its goals can be more easily predicted and countered. They also lack allies meaning one can trap one demon and not fear a rescue mission. And if everything goes well, we will trick the demon, kill it and be rid of the problem. By working with mages, we're talking about making concession that we will have to abide by in the future or deal with the reprisals.

Go home JB, your drunk on mage juice. 

[Medhia Nox]

@dragonflight288: I'll have to brush up on it, still doesn't change the danger of demons. It only enhances the danger of mages.

As for the Red Templars - if these people are anything like medieval people - seeing someone wielding a sword raid and pillage is called Tuesday for them. Seeing someone turn into an abomination would still FAR outweigh their fear.

If a Red Templar kills you - it's just a man killing a man. If a demon kills you - your soul is likely to be believed to be in jeopardy.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
The irony of your post is delicious.You claim mages are dangerous because of demons, yet you want to make deals with demons because you believe it's better than working with mages.If you take that route then you would be the biggest hypocrite of all time.

The risk of possession is only one of the reasons mages are dangerous and not even the more worrisome one, as far as I am concerned.
If country A is scared of country B because they have really powerful weapons and, in order to protect themselves, they decide to also build their powerful weapons is that hipocrisy or common sense?

If country A starts to condemn country B for building nuclear weapons and then they build nuclear arms themselves,then yes that would be hypocrisy.What you're advocating for is working with the devil because you think it's better than working with a rival country.