2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: I'll have to brush up on it, still doesn't change the danger of demons. It only enhances the danger of mages.

As for the Red Templars - if these people are anything like medieval people - seeing someone wielding a sword raid and pillage is called Tuesday for them. Seeing someone turn into an abomination would still FAR outweigh their fear.

If a Red Templar kills you - it's just a man killing a man. If a demon kills you - your soul is likely to be believed to be in jeopardy.

The red lyrium has also turned them into mutated monsters. So, you know, that.

[Medhia Nox]

I would just put the damn Lucrosians in charge of the mages - they'll keep their cohorts in line and not worry for one second about the morality of any of it so long as the gold is flowing.

I truly hope we find that the Isolations, Loyalists and Lucrosians bowed out of the rebellion - it makes NO sense for them to bend their ideology to serve the mage body politic.

It flies in the face of how real people (groups) work.

Not every mage/elf/Ferelden sees themselves as a labeled cog in their particular faction. Treating them that way is the worst type of writing - and I hope they avoid it.

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

well play game then smilie

Because the whole world is on the brink of collapse and the whole game is about saving the world from itself. The devs pointed out that the game won't focus on the mage/templar war, but it will be a large part of it.

Add in the Qunari, the dragons, Morrigan coming back (right there is a reason to preorder and play the game,) The Orlesian Civil war and the Elven uprising, and you have a lot of reasons to play the game without mages and templars.

i mean play any da game you will see mages wrecked by something or mages failures and their consequences.
tower in ferelden wrecked by abomnations.
circle in kirkwall wrecked by templars despite mages had blood magic.
rivian circle wrecked by templars
mages wrecked by slavers
mages wrecked by leliana
mages in ostagar wrecked
mages in asunder wrecked
mages in dawn of seeker wrecked
http://image.gamespo...0_640screen.jpg (wrecked)

normal mages victories
ups outside pc it is hard find one.

[dragonflight288]

[quote]Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: I'll have to brush up on it, still doesn't change the danger of demons. It only enhances the danger of mages.[/quote]

Well, at least it enhances the danger of fully trained and vain blood mages, which the Baroness most certainly was.

I know this because I only beat Awakening two weeks ago on my most recent playthrough. Before that, I also misconstrued the whole thing to a Pride Demon, as that was the memorable fight.

[quote]As for the Red Templars - if these people are anything like medieval people - seeing someone wielding a sword raid and pillage is called Tuesday for them. Seeing someone turn into an abomination would still FAR outweigh their fear.

If a Red Templar kills you - it's just a man killing a man. If a demon kills you - your soul is likely to be believed to be in jeopardy. [/quote][/quote]

I disagree, but it's hard to say what the truth will be until the game comes out. Some pro-mages may call foul, some pro-templars may call foul, but until then all we have is speculation.

I personally think the average person in Thedas (since Thedas isn't Medieval Europe) would be far more concerned with the greater numbers, and thus greater influence of the Red Templars than they would be of mages...at least until they ran across a mage attacking them.

In my mind, they'll hate and fear whoever is attacking them. In a hypothetical scenario, we have a village with a healer. This healer is like Anders in that he treats his patients for free and helps out however he can. In turn, the people provide him with food and a place to sleep. Then the Red Templars attack. They'll likely hate the templars more than the mage.

On the flip side of the coin, there's a village with a very devout people and chantry. They have regular "blue" templars devoted to protecting them and the mages attack because it's a strategic holding ground, and highly defensible. Some of those mages may turn into abominations. That populace would likely support the templars and fear the mages.

I think it'll be more individualized by region than generalized as a whole.

[cjones91]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: I'll have to brush up on it, still doesn't change the danger of demons. It only enhances the danger of mages.

As for the Red Templars - if these people are anything like medieval people - seeing someone wielding a sword raid and pillage is called Tuesday for them. Seeing someone turn into an abomination would still FAR outweigh their fear.

If a Red Templar kills you - it's just a man killing a man. If a demon kills you - your soul is likely to be believed to be in jeopardy.

The red lyrium has also turned them into mutated monsters. So, you know, that.

Yep,that's why I believe the templars will have a hard time getting support from the populace.

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: I'll have to brush up on it, still doesn't change the danger of demons. It only enhances the danger of mages.

As for the Red Templars - if these people are anything like medieval people - seeing someone wielding a sword raid and pillage is called Tuesday for them. Seeing someone turn into an abomination would still FAR outweigh their fear.

If a Red Templar kills you - it's just a man killing a man. If a demon kills you - your soul is likely to be believed to be in jeopardy.

I'm sure I'm not the only one sick of the stupid "this is what happened in medieval times, so obviously it's what MUST happen in DA" argument.

The templars are the Chantry's soldiers against rogue mages, ostensibly.  I don't think peasants would react to these people suddenly raiding and pillaging on their lands with "oh, hey, just another soldier raid, no biggie."  We already saw how the populace reacted to Templar bullying in Kirkwall, and "oh, just another day" was NOT it.

[dragonflight288]

Silfren wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: I'll have to brush up on it, still doesn't change the danger of demons. It only enhances the danger of mages.

As for the Red Templars - if these people are anything like medieval people - seeing someone wielding a sword raid and pillage is called Tuesday for them. Seeing someone turn into an abomination would still FAR outweigh their fear.

If a Red Templar kills you - it's just a man killing a man. If a demon kills you - your soul is likely to be believed to be in jeopardy.

I'm sure I'm not the only one sick of the stupid "this is what happened in medieval times, so obviously it's what MUST happen in DA" argument.

The templars are the Chantry's soldiers against rogue mages, ostensibly.  I don't think peasants would react to these people suddenly raiding and pillaging on their lands with "oh, hey, just another soldier raid, no biggie."  We already saw how the populace reacted to Templar bullying in Kirkwall, and "oh, just another day" was NOT it.

Cullen makes it clear that the templars have lost a lot of support from the populace because they're no longer seen as defenders.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I would just put the damn Lucrosians in charge of the mages - they'll keep their cohorts in line and not worry for one second about the morality of any of it so long as the gold is flowing.

I truly hope we find that the Isolations, Loyalists and Lucrosians bowed out of the rebellion - it makes NO sense for them to bend their ideology to serve the mage body politic.

It flies in the face of how real people (groups) work.

Not every mage/elf/Ferelden sees themselves as a labeled cog in their particular faction. Treating them that way is the worst type of writing - and I hope they avoid it.

The Isolationists and Lucrosians only voted against it out of self-service; it's not an ideological thing to them, and, now that the war's heated up, it's probable that many would find more advantage in seeing it through to the end. The Loyalists might betray the rest, of course, but that's to be expected.

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

I would just put the damn Lucrosians in charge of the mages - they'll keep their cohorts in line and not worry for one second about the morality of any of it so long as the gold is flowing.

I truly hope we find that the Isolations, Loyalists and Lucrosians bowed out of the rebellion - it makes NO sense for them to bend their ideology to serve the mage body politic.

It flies in the face of how real people (groups) work.

Not every mage/elf/Ferelden sees themselves as a labeled cog in their particular faction. Treating them that way is the worst type of writing - and I hope they avoid it.

The Isolationists and Lucrosians only voted against it out of self-service; it's not an ideological thing to them, and, now that the war's heated up, it's probable that many would find more advantage in seeing it through to the end. The Loyalists might betray the rest, of course, but that's to be expected.

Or the Loyalists will throw themselves on the sword. I think it'll be an individual thing. Some will betray them believing it to be the will of the Maker, others would prefer to die by the templars swords.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

People, there is a difference between "possessed" and "enthralled" or "seduced".
Lady Harriman was seduced by the promises of a demon but she was not possessed. The templars in both Annulments were enthralled by demons but not a single one was possessed.
The only possessed normals we've seen became so because a mage forced the demon into their flesh. Unless I'm forgetting some instance; which is possible; we've never seen a demon activelly working towards possessing a normal person.

You did the Broken Circle quest, right?  Did you overlook all those "possessed templar" mobs?

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
No, actually, you only posited YOUR IDEA of a scenario. 

That's fair.

There is no way of knowing what actually would happen, if the archdemon would simply die if there were no Tainted beings for its soul to fly to.  And only a suicidal fool would willingly rid themselves of a proven method for destroying the archdemon for one that we have no idea would work or not, especially if the new lack of mages, Grey Wardens, and available pre-prepared Joining blood made it impossible to revert back to the old tried and true method should this new idea turn out to be bunk.

You know, in the very same post you quoted I said that I would not be willing to give up completely on mages without doing extensive research and experimentation on these new solutions first.
Not to mention, that the implementation of these plans don't even require the complete anhilition of mages. For instance, if we discover that Lyrium alone is enough to perform the Joining, all that would mean is that Grey Wardens would be able to perform it without the aid of mages. If one is cut off from the nearest Circle but new recruits are required on the post, this mage-free Joining would be extremely useful.
And it would also prevent mages from demandind stuff after the Blight is done.

You can't see that there's something wrong with the assertion that because magic is inherently dangerous, demons are bad news, and people who use magic tend to put themselves in power over others...and then saying you want to get rid of all mages so that the people left can play with those bad news demons, find new ways to use this inherently dangerous magic, and use this newfangled mundane-accessible magic to...put themselves in power over others? 

I mean, coming from you, the whole "power corrupts" thing is inevitable, right?  People will always seek to dominate others? And yet you can't see that under your own fatalistic concept of the way people inevitably operate...you're just trading one demon for another?  The thing about having mundanes work with demons is especially rich given you seem to think that demonic possession is the most dangerous thing about magic in the first place.  It's ridiculous that you're so desperate to find a means for mundanes to be rid of mages that you'd go so far as to recommend this as an option.  It's a classic literary trope, but ironic as hell coming from you.

I actually believe that demonic possession is the least dangerous thing about magic precisely because most mages are not looking foward to being possessed. On the other hand, using blood magic to dominate some minds doesn't have the same drawbacks that might prevent a mage from followying that path.
And I have never said that normals should work with demons; I've said that it would be preferable to manipulate them over making certain concessions.

There will always be the elites and the opressed; if not through magic, it will be through something else; but the difference here is that, at least, the means for advancement won't be programmed into someone's genetic code at birth like what happens with mages.

And you still haven't said what's wrong with turning all mages into golems.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:13 .

[BlueMagitek]

I assumed those were Enthralled Templars, as they displayed none of the magic ability that possessed creatures do. ~_^

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I assumed those were Enthralled Templars, as they displayed none of the magic ability that possessed creatures do.

Keep in mind that abominations also possess no special magical powers for the most part, and how endlessly your side whines about that.

In any case, several templars in Broken Circle are explicitly labeled "possessed."

[Medhia Nox]

@dragonflight288: thank you for being one of the few people with an opinion that hasn't turned into an insufferable cause-head.

That being said - I'm not trying to say they're going to be totally fine with the Red Templars.

Just trying to present a scenario that might still leave them anti-mage. It is not cut and dry and I think they're going to still be predisposed to thinking that mages have pretty much caused anything magically wrong.

I totally agree with you - and was simply posing the follow up to your statement about the Red Templars.

[MisterJB]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: You're familiar with Awakening where a Pride demon trapped an entire landscape in a hell world yes?

Or... the Sloth demon in the Codex description that destroyed a town with lethargy and apathy?

I'm sorry, but I think you're assessment of demon-kind is terribly off base.

None of those situations can ever compare to what the Magisters did and continue doing.

[cjones91]

Silfren wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

People, there is a difference between "possessed" and "enthralled" or "seduced".
Lady Harriman was seduced by the promises of a demon but she was not possessed. The templars in both Annulments were enthralled by demons but not a single one was possessed.
The only possessed normals we've seen became so because a mage forced the demon into their flesh. Unless I'm forgetting some instance; which is possible; we've never seen a demon activelly working towards possessing a normal person.

You did the Broken Circle quest, right?  Did you overlook all those "possessed templar" mobs?

People overlook things when it does'nt conform to their arguements.

Modifié par cjones91, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:18 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: You're familiar with Awakening where a Pride demon trapped an entire landscape in a hell world yes?

Or... the Sloth demon in the Codex description that destroyed a town with lethargy and apathy?

I'm sorry, but I think you're assessment of demon-kind is terribly off base.

None of those situations can ever compare to what the Magisters did and continue doing.

The sloth demon imprisons and enslaves people for fun and/or to improve its powerbase, in addition to sometimes killing those trapped in its nightmare.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

Keep in mind that abominations also possess no special magical powers for the most part, and how endlessly your side whines about that.

In any case, several templars in Broken Circle are explicitly labeled "possessed."

My side?  Please, I'm decidedly pro-Mage.

Abominations are supposed to combine the magics of the demon and their possed being together.  That's how they work.

[Ryzaki]

Yep it's just gameplay that for some baffling reason they lumber towards you like zombies and hit you with their fists like morons.

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Keep in mind that abominations also possess no special magical powers for the most part, and how endlessly your side whines about that.

In any case, several templars in Broken Circle are explicitly labeled "possessed."

My side?  Please, I'm decidedly pro-Mage.

Abominations are supposed to combine the magics of the demon and their possed being together.  That's how they work.

But they do not, in-game. So if you want to claim that the game is inaccurate there, you cannot turn around and say that it's inaccurate for showing the abilities of possessed nonmages.

Yep it's just gameplay that for
some baffling reason they lumber towards you like zombies and hit you
with their fists like morons.

I personally think that it's because most demons are weak.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:20 .

[Medhia Nox]

@MisterJB: And why are you blaming Joe Circle Mage for what the Magisters do?

I'd crush Tevinter in a heartbeat - but what justifies your slaughter of every Thedosian mage?

Fear and Caution are NOT the same thing - and you seem ruled (even if only for the sake of a fictional exercise) by the former.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: And why are you blaming Joe Circle Mage for what the Magisters do?

I'd crush Tevinter in a heartbeat - but what justifies your slaughter of every Thedosian mage?

Fear and Caution are NOT the same thing - and you seem ruled (even if only for the sake of a fictional exercise) by the former.

I'm impressed; you're kinda, sorta living up to claims about neutrality.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...
I personally think that it's because most demons are weak.

Even weak mages should still have access to spells. When Irving turns into an abomination in the tower it's just as weak and stupid as the abominations that the novices turned into. It's gameplay.

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight288: thank you for being one of the few people with an opinion that hasn't turned into an insufferable cause-head.

You're welcome. I prefer to let the evidence do the talking. To quote Sherlock Holmes

"It is a great mistake to theorize before we have the facts. Inevitably, one will try to twit the facts to fit their theories, rather than twist their theories to fit the facts."

That being said - I'm not trying to say they're going to be totally fine with the Red Templars.

Just trying to present a scenario that might still leave them anti-mage. It is not cut and dry and I think they're going to still be predisposed to thinking that mages have pretty much caused anything magically wrong.

I totally agree with you - and was simply posing the follow up to your statement about the Red Templars.

Fair enough. But I still think that the average Joe would be more concerned about a Red Templar attack than an abomination, since mages aren't that common...unless Joe had a child who showed signs of magical sensitivity.

[cjones91]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: And why are you blaming Joe Circle Mage for what the Magisters do?

I'd crush Tevinter in a heartbeat - but what justifies your slaughter of every Thedosian mage?

Fear and Caution are NOT the same thing - and you seem ruled (even if only for the sake of a fictional exercise) by the former.

I'm impressed; you're kinda, sorta living up to claims about neutrality.

Medhia Nox's posts are sort of enlightening because he/she looks at the topic from both points of view.That's way better than a extremist line of thinking.

Modifié par cjones91, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:25 .