2497 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yep it's just gameplay that for some baffling reason they lumber towards you like zombies and hit you with their fists like morons.

^^

[Xilizhra]

cjones91 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: And why are you blaming Joe Circle Mage for what the Magisters do?

I'd crush Tevinter in a heartbeat - but what justifies your slaughter of every Thedosian mage?

Fear and Caution are NOT the same thing - and you seem ruled (even if only for the sake of a fictional exercise) by the former.

I'm impressed; you're kinda, sorta living up to claims about neutrality.

Medhia Nox's posts are sort of enlightening because he/she looks at the topic from both points of view.That's way better than a extremist line of thinking.

From a point of view that's rather skewed in terms of equivalence, sadly. The templar rogues and Tevinter are paired in extremity, not the templars and the mage rebels. The mages are paired with the Chantry.

[Ryzaki]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yep it's just gameplay that for some baffling reason they lumber towards you like zombies and hit you with their fists like morons.

^^

I see why the devs did that though. A bunch of fireball spamming knocking the warden on his/her ass (unless using Indomintable) would've gotten real old real annoying real fast.

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: And why are you blaming Joe Circle Mage for what the Magisters do?

I'd crush Tevinter in a heartbeat - but what justifies your slaughter of every Thedosian mage?

Fear and Caution are NOT the same thing - and you seem ruled (even if only for the sake of a fictional exercise) by the former.

I'm impressed; you're kinda, sorta living up to claims about neutrality.

Medhia Nox's posts are sort of enlightening because he/she looks at the topic from both points of view.That's way better than a extremist line of thinking.

From a point of view that's rather skewed in terms of equivalence, sadly. The templar rogues and Tevinter are paired in extremity, not the templars and the mage rebels. The mages are paired with the Chantry.

Maybe not all of them. Resolutionists being an example...

On the other hand, the Chantry did let the mages declare their independence. The Seekers and many templars couldn't handle that.

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yep it's just gameplay that for some baffling reason they lumber towards you like zombies and hit you with their fists like morons.

^^

I see why the devs did that though. A bunch of fireball spamming knocking the warden on his/her ass (unless using Indomintable) would've gotten real old real annoying real fast.

If they wanted to do that, they should have made abominations as rare as every other mage enemy.

Maybe not all of them. Resolutionists being an example...

The Resolutionists no longer show any signs of existing, probably because they no longer had any reason to after the mages left the Chantry. But they apparently were either gone or never present in Asunder, so I suspect they were just a local group.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:29 .

[MisterJB]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: And why are you blaming Joe Circle Mage for what the Magisters do?

I'd crush Tevinter in a heartbeat - but what justifies your slaughter of every Thedosian mage?

Fear and Caution are NOT the same thing - and you seem ruled (even if only for the sake of a fictional exercise) by the former.

I'm not. I believe this was an exercise to determine who would present a greater threat to normals, mages or demons, and who would be preferable to work with/manipulate.
You presented situations where demons destroyed entire villages to prove how demons are dangerous and I pointed out to how mages have enslaved the whole continent.
This means that mages, on the whole, have actually an worse historial than the demons.

[BlueMagitek]

Ryzaki wrote...

I see why the devs did that though. A bunch of fireball spamming knocking the warden on his/her ass (unless using Indomintable) would've gotten real old real annoying real fast.

Well it was their decision to make one of the branches of the story an abomination fest.  They could have had fewer abominations and more Abomination made veil tears bringing in monsters like the Fade Bear that you end up summoning.

[Gwydden]

Are we actually discussing whether is mages or demons who posed a greater threat to mundanes?

A demon will always be looking for a way to seriously mess you up. Mages can at least be taught good manners.

[dragonflight288]

Gwydden wrote...

Are we actually discussing whether is mages or demons who posed a greater threat to mundanes?

A demon will always be looking for a way to seriously mess you up. Mages can at least be taught good manners.

And many mages simply want to live their lives in peace.

EDIT: "All I want is a pretty girl, a place to sleep and the right to shoot lightening at fools!"

Modifié par dragonflight288, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:32 .

[Gwydden]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Are we actually discussing whether is mages or demons who posed a greater threat to mundanes?

A demon will always be looking for a way to seriously mess you up. Mages can at least be taught good manners.

And many mages simply want to live their lives in peace.

EDIT: "All I want is a pretty girl, a place to sleep and the right to shoot lightening at fools!"

Good old Anders. What the hell were he and Justice thinking?

[dragonflight288]

Gwydden wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Are we actually discussing whether is mages or demons who posed a greater threat to mundanes?

A demon will always be looking for a way to seriously mess you up. Mages can at least be taught good manners.

And many mages simply want to live their lives in peace.

EDIT: "All I want is a pretty girl, a place to sleep and the right to shoot lightening at fools!"

Good old Anders. What the hell were he and Justice thinking?

That they were cold and needed a warm body to snuggle up against.

err...wait....

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...
If they wanted to do that, they should have made abominations as rare as every other mage enemy.

Except that would've undermined the entire "Tower overrun by abominations." bit.

BlueMagitek wrote...
Well it was their decision to make one of
the branches of the story an abomination fest.  They could have had
fewer abominations and more Abomination made veil tears bringing in
monsters like the Fade Bear that you end up summoning.

True but that's how they did it.. They nerfed the abominations for gameplay.

Do they even still explode after death in DA2? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:35 .

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@MisterJB: And why are you blaming Joe Circle Mage for what the Magisters do?

I'd crush Tevinter in a heartbeat - but what justifies your slaughter of every Thedosian mage?

Fear and Caution are NOT the same thing - and you seem ruled (even if only for the sake of a fictional exercise) by the former.

I'm not. I believe this was an exercise to determine who would present a greater threat to normals, mages or demons, and who would be preferable to work with/manipulate.
You presented situations where demons destroyed entire villages to prove how demons are dangerous and I pointed out to how mages have enslaved the whole continent.
This means that mages, on the whole, have actually an worse historial than the demons.

Can a single mage kill entire armies like certain demon possessed entities such as Revenants and Arcane Horrors?Can they enslave entire populations and turn them into puppets like Desire demons,Pride demons,etc?

The Pro Templar argument for why mages are locked up is because demons are incredibly dangerous and they could cause untold damage if they possess a mage.

Modifié par cjones91, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:35 .

[Xilizhra]

Except that would've undermined the entire "Tower overrun by abominations." bit.

Then they shouldn't have made that plot if they couldn't translate it into gameplay. Or just been explicit about the Chantry being wrong about abominations.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Except that would've undermined the entire "Tower overrun by abominations." bit.

Then they shouldn't have made that plot if they couldn't translate it into gameplay. Or just been explicit about the Chantry being wrong about abominations.

Or they could've did what they did. Lore doesn't always translate properly into gameplay. For any game.

[Gwydden]

MisterJB wrote...

I'm not. I believe this was an exercise to determine who would present a greater threat to normals, mages or demons, and who would be preferable to work with/manipulate.
You presented situations where demons destroyed entire villages to prove how demons are dangerous and I pointed out to how mages have enslaved the whole continent.
This means that mages, on the whole, have actually an worse historial than the demons.

Are you saying murder is better than enslavement? I don't agree, but not for the reasons you might think. In a young, low tech culture in a similar context such as Old Tevinter, slavery is perfectly normal and even necessary for progress, that will eventually lead to slavery no longer being necessary. Now, you can say all you want about modern Tevinter, since in the current Thedas slavery is generally frowned upon (even if serfdom and forced servitude aren't much better), and in general Tevinter seems to be way to stuck in its ways and somewhat stagnant. Considering their constant war with the qunari, that's to be expected.

But what I'm trying to explain is that you can't condemn slavery or conquest in Old Tevinter anymore than you can in Ancient Rome. Some slaves even had better lives than free commoners back then. And to say that is worse than the random cruel massacre of entire villages perpetrated by demons is certainly completely out of place.

[dragonflight288]

Gwydden wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I'm not. I believe this was an exercise to determine who would present a greater threat to normals, mages or demons, and who would be preferable to work with/manipulate.
You presented situations where demons destroyed entire villages to prove how demons are dangerous and I pointed out to how mages have enslaved the whole continent.
This means that mages, on the whole, have actually an worse historial than the demons.

Are you saying murder is better than enslavement? I don't agree, but not for the reasons you might think. In a young, low tech culture in a similar context such as Old Tevinter, slavery is perfectly normal and even necessary for progress, that will eventually lead to slavery no longer being necessary. Now, you can say all you want about modern Tevinter, since in the current Thedas slavery is generally frowned upon (even if serfdom and forced servitude aren't much better), and in general Tevinter seems to be way to stuck in its ways and somewhat stagnant. Considering their constant war with the qunari, that's to be expected.

But what I'm trying to explain is that you can't condemn slavery or conquest in Old Tevinter anymore than you can in Ancient Rome. Some slaves even had better lives than free commoners back then. And to say that is worse than the random cruel massacre of entire villages perpetrated by demons is certainly completely out of place.

Who knows, many of those slaves may have ways to get out of slavery like in Ancient Rome. Fenris was able to grant freedom to his mother and sister through combat and became a lyrium warrior.

Leliana can tell an elf warden that Orlas is proud of it's not-slaves. Slaves in every way but the name so they can say they aren't slavers....

Orlais is just as guilty. Tevinter is simply more honest about it.

[Medhia Nox]

@cjones91: Thanks for that. I do try to be neutral, but I also find myself opposing ideas from what I consider mage fanatics far more on here (doesn't mean I'm right about anything of course).

I don't think there's much to really argue about when it comes to the Templars. They're a fascist military organization that has gone far beyond overstepping their boundaries. They're ruled by an alarmist mindset that has led a huge portion of them to becoming the Red Templars.

I think the Chantry is far less to blame than maybe people paint them. Real life bias is far too evident and I think people should strive for much less projection of their real world prejudices. So, I'm more apt to also oppose anyone who is anti-chantry to try to strike out at a balance.

Anyway - there's no easy answers to any of this, and that's exactly what I try to oppose on any side that takes a fanatical approach. To some forumites it's just: "Commit whatever evil act to achieve your end."

*shrugs* Here's to perspective - and trying to keep it.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:51 .

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
You did the Broken Circle quest, right?  Did you overlook all those "possessed templar" mobs?

Let me remind you that my original point was that the only times we have seen possessed normals it's because a mage forced the demon into that person.
Even if we accept those Templars are possessed; despite them not exhibiting a single magical talent; the Circle is filled with blood mages; one group of them is even protecting a blood mage.
This is not evidence of demons activelly attempting to possess normal people.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 octobre 2013 - 05:53 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...
And you still haven't said what's wrong with turning all mages into golems.

I should think you would already be able to guess my response to this question and thus not really need to ask it.  

Obviously, I think it's an abhorrent idea all 'round.  Even Caridin made it clear he ultimately came to hate his creation even in the face of having volunteers for golems, and not unwilling prisoners.  That speaks volumes to me, and even without Caridin's own clear contempt for the Anvil I would be against its use.  Not unlike Tranquility, volunteering to be made a golem isn't exactly an informed choice since you can't know what the reality is going to be like until the process is completed, and it apparently is quite a torturous process.  I would not submit anyone to that under any circumstances, volunteer or no.  

But quite beyond that, we already saw in Origins how the Anvil was abused and unwilling people were put to it in no small part as a means of silencing dissent.  I should think you of all people would be against the Anvil on those grounds alone.  But I find it kind of despicable that you would think it's perfectly acceptable to do this to all mages, everywhere, just for the sake of mitigating any threat they pose.  

How, praytell, is forcing unwilling people--and even you couldn't deny that many, arguably most, would be unwilling--to undergo the process of being made into a golem, an acceptable solution?  It is de facto genocide.

Modifié par Silfren, 14 octobre 2013 - 06:02 .

[MisterJB]

Gwydden wrote...
Are you saying murder is better than enslavement? I don't agree, but not for the reasons you might think. In a young, low tech culture in a similar context such as Old Tevinter, slavery is perfectly normal and even necessary for progress, that will eventually lead to slavery no longer being necessary. Now, you can say all you want about modern Tevinter, since in the current Thedas slavery is generally frowned upon (even if serfdom and forced servitude aren't much better), and in general Tevinter seems to be way to stuck in its ways and somewhat stagnant. Considering their constant war with the qunari, that's to be expected.

But what I'm trying to explain is that you can't condemn slavery or conquest in Old Tevinter anymore than you can in Ancient Rome. Some slaves even had better lives than free commoners back then. And to say that is worse than the random cruel massacre of entire villages perpetrated by demons is certainly completely out of place.

Slavery was always about having workers that you didn't need to pay, not necessity. Certainly, it was more accepted by society and there might even have been some slaves that lived better than your average peasant but the reports we have of how slaves are treated in Tevinter is downright ghastly. They're proprierty and are treated as such.
I daresay that the number of people that have suffered because of the society of Tevinter that used to span the whole continent is much greater that the number of people whose village was attacked by a random demon.

Was a great empire built because of it? Yes, it was and I can see how civilization might justify those actions; but probrably not to non-mages since their role in that civilization is that of luggage.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
You did the Broken Circle quest, right?  Did you overlook all those "possessed templar" mobs?

Let me remind you that my original point was that the only times we have seen possessed normals it's because a mage forced the demon into that person.
Even if we accept those Templars are possessed; despite them not exhibiting a single magical talent; the Circle is filled with blood mages; one group of them is even protecting a blood mage.
This is not evidence of demons activelly attempting to possess normal people.

But demons DO attempt to possess normal people.  The lore says that they generally find mages more attractice as hosts, but NOTHING about it implies that theydon't happily possess mundanes when given the chance...particularly in any scenario created by you, you genius, in which mages are extinct and thus mundanes have become demons' only available targets!

Modifié par Silfren, 14 octobre 2013 - 06:06 .

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
I should think you would already be able to guess my response to this question and thus not really need to ask it.  

Obviously, I think it's an abhorrent idea all 'round.  Even Caridin made it clear he ultimately came to hate his creation even in the face of having volunteers for golems, and not unwilling prisoners.  That speaks volumes to me, and even without Caridin's own clear contempt for the Anvil I would be against its use.  Not unlike Tranquility, volunteering to be made a golem isn't exactly an informed choice since you can't know what the reality is going to be like until the process is completed, and it apparently is quite a torturous process.  I would not submit anyone to that under any circumstances, volunteer or no.  

But quite beyond that, we already saw in Origins how the Anvil was abused and unwilling people were put to it in no small part as a means of silencing dissent.  I should think you of all people would be against the Anvil on those grounds alone.  But I find it kind of despicable that you would think it's perfectly acceptable to do this to all mages, everywhere, just for the sake of mitigating any threat they pose.  

How, praytell, is forcing unwilling people--and even you couldn't deny that many, arguably most, would be unwilling--to undergo the process of being made into a golem, an acceptable solution?  It is de facto genocide.

I wasn't actually being serious(mostly anyway) when I said we should do it but you said that this idea was not "well thought out".
Well, this to me refers to practical concerns rather than moralistic ones. Do you see any practical concern with turning all mages into golems?
They would retain their usefulness because the average mage is weaker than the average golem and they wouldn't be dangerous because of the control rods.