2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

And magic proves its use once more! Anything to keep those bastards out.

More seriously, I just want to visit Tevinter, and see how the place works for myself.

[TK514]

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I think we're arguing whether the Qunari would have steamrolled over Thedas had there not been mages.

Yes, they would. There is no arguing this.

You obviously haven't bothered to even pretend to be paying attention.

[TheKomandorShepard]

With regards to the abomination, he wants to give Hawke more badass
feats to boast about. He's taking a hero, sprinkling him with
exaggerations, and letting him percolate through a good audience. (Or
however he put that.) I didn't see you argue against this one major
point in favor of that interpretation; that given how dangerous
abominations are, there would be no city if it was so infested with them
as the game shows. The sidequests are presumably in case she (or in
context of Inquisition, they) run(s) across any consequences of such
later.

Maybe because hawke killed them all and well we still have templars with meredith who controls mages and have red lyrium sword .
Well warden doesn't have narrator he stills kills entire tower of abomnations hawke isn't weak so do we need exaggerate varric story?

Yes, I have accounted for this in my arguments. You are preaching to the choir.

Well you said that codex agrees with gameplay...

Sorry, I was picturing a super-soaker with gasoline. This spell,
by the way, is one of the very shortest range spells mages have
in-game. Everything else reaches a good deal longer.

In gameplay for every mage yes but that kind of spells seems be for more than average mage because they don't use that when necessary like life-threatening situations.

Hence my suggestion of having them either put in armor or put behind a phalanx. Do try to keep up.

Wait you want put armor on someone who is physically weak and have to run often because don't have any chance?  

And well about last thing as i said little profit huge cost not worth it now we have better and safer forces than mages who are walking bombs and even better we have to trade that worse forces for mages who are pathetic and lose every fight.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

With regards to the abomination, he wants to give Hawke more badass
feats to boast about. He's taking a hero, sprinkling him with
exaggerations, and letting him percolate through a good audience. (Or
however he put that.) I didn't see you argue against this one major
point in favor of that interpretation; that given how dangerous
abominations are, there would be no city if it was so infested with them
as the game shows. The sidequests are presumably in case she (or in
context of Inquisition, they) run(s) across any consequences of such
later.

Maybe because hawke killed them all and well we still have templars with meredith who controls mages and have red lyrium sword .

That many abominations? No. Greagoir flat-out states that his entire army of Templars is sufficient preparation for "one or two abominations." A city full of them is beyond saving.

Well warden doesn't have narrator he stills kills entire tower of abomnations hawke isn't weak so do we need exaggerate varric story?

Gameplay and story segregation.

Yes, I have accounted for this in my arguments. You are preaching to the choir.

Well you said that codex agrees with gameplay...

And that the the bias of the group that wrote these particular Codex entries would be to agree with you. Either of these facts alone would be very good evidence that you're simply wrong. In the context of both, your argument has a serious problem.

Sorry, I was picturing a super-soaker with gasoline. This spell,
by the way, is one of the very shortest range spells mages have
in-game. Everything else reaches a good deal longer.

In gameplay for every mage yes but that kind of spells seems be for more than average mage because they don't use that when necessary like life-threatening situations.

... so gather the non-average ones. We've covered this.

Hence my suggestion of having them either put in armor or put behind a phalanx. Do try to keep up.

Wait you want put armor on someone who is physically weak and have to run often because don't have any chance?

That's rather less true if the mage is armored, isn't it?

And well about last thing as i said little profit huge cost not worth it now we have better and safer forces than mages who are walking bombs and even better we have to trade that worse forces for mages who are pathetic and lose every fight.

That would be the case if abominations were as common as you state. Given how dangerous they are (which we agree on) the world would not exist if that were the case.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 17 octobre 2013 - 02:07 .

[Silfren]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Templars needed lyrium was the original concept idea.
DA:O was
supposed to have lyrium addiction mechanic, but it was cut in the last
minute (you can find refferences in the code) and Alistairs line was
changed to reflect that.

So tempalrs needing lyrium isn't a change going against the original vision. It IS the original vision.

Doesn't matter final version was that templars don't need lyrium.

Agreed. This is still a retcon, despite the original plan for the second game containing it, because the final product did not.

Okay wait wait wait. 

I can follow this somewhat I think, that apparently it was the original idea for Lyrium to be necessary and they wanted this to be part of the gameplay...but then they changed it, and Alistair's infamous line reflects this change.

However, the codices in both Origins and DA2 STILL refer to lyrium being necessary, and so does Asunder, and if I'm not crazily mistaken, Gaider has said something about lyrium being necessary.  So if it was ever planned to have lyrium not be necessary...that idea was scrapped too, because lyrium IS necessary under the current lore.  I think.

It really doesn't make sense for lyrium to be retconned as not being necessary for templar abilities, because that then just begs the question of where the hell those powers come from, if templars are not in fact mages but have to develop their powers somehow, rather than having them in-born.

Modifié par Silfren, 17 octobre 2013 - 12:54 .

[dragonflight288]

Silfren wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Templars needed lyrium was the original concept idea.
DA:O was
supposed to have lyrium addiction mechanic, but it was cut in the last
minute (you can find refferences in the code) and Alistairs line was
changed to reflect that.

So tempalrs needing lyrium isn't a change going against the original vision. It IS the original vision.

Doesn't matter final version was that templars don't need lyrium.

Agreed. This is still a retcon, despite the original plan for the second game containing it, because the final product did not.
 a good deal longer. (That's not "best for the Qunari.")

Okay wait wait wait. 

I can follow this somewhat I think, that apparently it was the original idea for Lyrium to be necessary and they wanted this to be part of the gameplay...but then they changed it, and Alistair's infamous line reflects this change.

However, the codices in both Origins and DA2 STILL refer to lyrium being necessary, and so does Asunder, and if I'm not crazily mistaken, Gaider has said something about lyrium being necessary.  So if it was ever planned to have lyrium not be necessary...that idea was scrapped too, because lyrium IS necessary under the current lore.  I think.

It really doesn't make sense for lyrium to be retconned as not being necessary for templar abilities, because that then just begs the question of where the hell those powers come from, if templars are not in fact mages but have to develop their powers somehow, rather than having them in-born.

Alistair calls it a mental discipline in Origins. He says you need a disciplined mind to use templar talents.

The lore says lyrium is necessary for templar abilities, and Gaider is trying to me it absolutely essential. Even Alistair in the comics is taking lyrium to use his templar abilities.

But I'm like you, I'm having a hard time getting over what Alistair specifically says in Origins and thereby have contradicting lore. Especially since most fans don't read the comics.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Sorry I can't place precisely where I heard this but I recall hearing that an idea for the lyrium requirement could have been some kind of addiction mechanic, but that it wasn't fun for the player. The way I see it is that the PC & friends are generally exceptions to the rule anyway, and the lore still stands.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 17 octobre 2013 - 04:17 .

[leaguer of one]

TK514 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I think we're arguing whether the Qunari would have steamrolled over Thedas had there not been mages.

Yes, they would. There is no arguing this.

You obviously haven't bothered to even pretend to be paying attention.

You mean the chantry had tech that would equal to the qunari cannons and ships? Point them out please.

[dragonflight288]

Morocco Mole wrote...

This is one reason why you never try to justify gameplay mechanics via the story.

But that's not the issue. The issue is that Alistair specifically says in Origins, as part of the lore and not gameplay mechanics, that lyrium isn't needed for the templars abilities, but lyrium makes their abilities more effective. And then he goes on to doubt the Chantry's word that it even does that, as he's very skepticle of what the Chantry officially says.

We have one bit of lore contradicting other bits of lore, and it isn't gameplay related.

[dragonflight288]

leaguer of one wrote...

TK514 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I think we're arguing whether the Qunari would have steamrolled over Thedas had there not been mages.

Yes, they would. There is no arguing this.

You obviously haven't bothered to even pretend to be paying attention.

You mean the chantry had tech that would equal to the qunari cannons and ships? Point them out please.

They don't have the tech. In DA2, it's made clear by the bartender in Act 2 if you ask for rumors that he heard the Qunari explosive powder was stolen, and he's excited that they may finally have weapons to match the Qunari's.

[leaguer of one]

dragonflight288 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TK514 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I think we're arguing whether the Qunari would have steamrolled over Thedas had there not been mages.

Yes, they would. There is no arguing this.

You obviously haven't bothered to even pretend to be paying attention.

You mean the chantry had tech that would equal to the qunari cannons and ships? Point them out please.

They don't have the tech. In DA2, it's made clear by the bartender in Act 2 if you ask for rumors that he heard the Qunari explosive powder was stolen, and he's excited that they may finally have weapons to match the Qunari's.

They do have it. That mission was about the qunari giving false plans to find thepeople who are working ageinst them. They let them have those false plan.

The Qunari is more advance then the chantry held lands of thadus. The qunari are using cannon while everyone else is using catapults. There ships are better.
What else was used to push the qunari back who were using cannons and bombs to take groups at a time.

[dragonflight288]

leaguer of one wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TK514 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I think we're arguing whether the Qunari would have steamrolled over Thedas had there not been mages.

Yes, they would. There is no arguing this.

You obviously haven't bothered to even pretend to be paying attention.

You mean the chantry had tech that would equal to the qunari cannons and ships? Point them out please.

They don't have the tech. In DA2, it's made clear by the bartender in Act 2 if you ask for rumors that he heard the Qunari explosive powder was stolen, and he's excited that they may finally have weapons to match the Qunari's.

They do have it. That mission was about the qunari giving false plans to find thepeople who are working ageinst them. They let them have those false plan.

The Qunari is more advance then the chantry held lands of thadus. The qunari are using cannon while everyone else is using catapults. There ships are better.
What else was used to push the qunari back who were using cannons and bombs to take groups at a time.

Jevaris was after the explosive powder to sell it because they don't have it, or at least a reliable powder. Dworkin was looking to recreate the qunari tech in Awakening by making his own explosives (for which he ultimately ends up getting hunted by the Qunari over)

What the qunari left over was a decoy, with a strong enough guard to grant the illusion of value, and when that decoy was used, to the shock of the user, it was not explosives but instead a poison gas.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

leaguer of one wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TK514 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I think we're arguing whether the Qunari would have steamrolled over Thedas had there not been mages.

Yes, they would. There is no arguing this.

You obviously haven't bothered to even pretend to be paying attention.

You mean the chantry had tech that would equal to the qunari cannons and ships? Point them out please.

They
don't have the tech. In DA2, it's made clear by the bartender in Act 2
if you ask for rumors that he heard the Qunari explosive powder was
stolen, and he's excited that they may finally have weapons to match the
Qunari's.

They do have it. That mission was about the
qunari giving false plans to find thepeople who are working ageinst
them. They let them have those false plan.

The Qunari is more
advance then the chantry held lands of thadus. The qunari are using
cannon while everyone else is using catapults. There ships are better.
What else was used to push the qunari back who were using cannons and bombs to take groups at a time.

Attrition. Plus The fact that the Qunari would be fighting far from home, while humans could call reinforcements much faster.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 17 octobre 2013 - 05:01 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

That many abominations? No. Greagoir flat-out states that his entire
army of Templars is sufficient preparation for "one or two
abominations." A city full of them is beyond saving.

What one or two abomnations and army?

Tower was full of them not two or one

and well tower was beyond saving and what?

Gameplay and story segregation.

Amm part of the plot is gameplay and story segregation as i understand so ulrded other abomnations what he was truning others doesn't exist like that what warden killed before he found student in the closet despite this is part of the story?

And that the the bias of the group that wrote these particular
Codex entries would be to agree with you. Either of these facts alone
would be very good evidence that you're simply wrong. In the context of
both, your argument has a serious problem.

wait now you are using gameplay what was bulit for entertainment player and you want confirm it with codex wrote by person what don't know everything?

... so gather the non-average ones. We've covered this.

And guess how much we have that type of mages?


That's rather less true if the mage is armored, isn't it?

armor doesn't make you indestructible it provides protection and its weight slow you down and well you have to be athletic to do something in that. 


That would be the case if abominations were as common as you state.
Given how dangerous they are (which we agree on) the world would not
exist if that were the case.

That would be the case if abominations were as common as you state.
Given how dangerous they are (which we agree on) the world would not
exist if that were the case.

As i said pride demon would take entire city i don't know how lust demon but weaker are rather for smaller target.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]TheKomandorShepard wrote...

[quote]
That many abominations? No. Greagoir flat-out states that his entire
army of Templars is sufficient preparation for "one or two
abominations." A city full of them is beyond saving.
[/quote]
What one or two abomnations and army?

Tower was full of them not two or one [/quote]

Which is unfortunate for the Templars, since that is explicitly what they were ready to handle. (As was my point.)

Edit: More specifically: "We were prepared for one or two abominations, not the whole horde that descended upon us!"

[quote]
and well tower was beyond saving and what?[/quote]

And the Warden has PC immunity. Many of your incomplete understandings would be rectified if you got this concept. Even in that context, though, a city full of full-on abominations (not to be confused with demons or possessed mundanes) is a bit much. A tower full of them was about 1/6 of the plot of Origins.

[quote]
[quote]
Gameplay and story segregation.
[/quote]

Amm part of the plot is gameplay and story segregation as i understand so ulrded other abomnations what he was truning others doesn't exist like that what warden killed before he found student in the closet despite this is part of the story?[/quote]

... I can only assume you think you just argued against my point. Uh, no, the gameplay and story segregation was in the Warden not having a remarkably slow, painful, and boring-to-play time climbing the Tower through a horde of god-like supermonsters, instead having to deal largely with ordinary demons and non-magic-wielding abominations.

(You can't possibly have actually missed my point that hard.)

[quote]
And that the the bias of the group that wrote these particular
Codex entries would be to agree with you. Either of these facts alone
would be very good evidence that you're simply wrong. In the context of
both, your argument has a serious problem.
[/quote]
wait now you are using gameplay what was bulit for entertainment player and you want confirm it with codex wrote by person what don't know everything?[/quote]

I'm using the parts they agree on, and the fact that the Chantry would not praise mages as their main advantage if they could get away with not doing so. It seems to me you're going to need an actual argument if you want to brush both of those aside.

[quote]
[quote]... so gather the non-average ones. We've covered this.
[/quote]
And guess how much we have that type of mages?[/quote]

Enough for the Joining, and probably enough to kill a whole bunch of people. Why exactly is not having many strong mages an argument for not fielding any mages?

[quote]
That's rather less true if the mage is armored, isn't it?

armor doesn't make you indestructible it provides protection and its weight slow you down and well you have to be athletic to do something in that. [/quote]

Mages could be trained to cope, but we probably won't have the option. And your argument against placing them behind a row of soldiers? (If salient?)

[quote]
[quote]
That would be the case if abominations were as common as you state.
Given how dangerous they are (which we agree on) the world would not
exist if that were the case.[/quote]

As i said pride demon would take entire city i don't know how lust demon but weaker are rather for smaller target.

[/quote]

A horde of abominations like the kind I'm picturing in DA2 would just tear the place and people apart. One abomination is essentially a natural disaster.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 17 octobre 2013 - 07:50 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I've found it.

Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, written by Brother Genitivi.

http://dragonage.wik...ction_of_Thedas

Here's a direct quote of when the Qunari arrived.

"The defenders of those lands were hardly a match for Qunari discipline
and technology. One shot of the mighty cannons, the likes of which our
ancestors of the time had never seen before, brought troops to their
knees. Qunari warriors in glittering steel armor carved through the
defenders with ease. History calls this the First Qunari War, but it was
mostly a one-sided bloodbath, with the Qunari advancing far into Tevinter within ten years."

That's near the end of chapter 1 of the qunari tales.

Then in chapter 3, about the New Exalted Marches, it talks about how it took an alliance of nations, including Tevinter to begin driving the Qunari back in the Storm Age. It was called the grandest mobilization of forces since the fourth blight.

It seems to me that the lore makes it clear that it took every nation, including the magically inclined Tevinters to push the qunari back, and the story by Genitivi also says that a large part of that has to do with mages being their answer to the Qunari's technology.

So?
The Quanri are unified. I told you that before.
TheDas is not.

If a million qunari land at Rivain, will Rivain be able to stop it alone? Nope.
And it will take MONTS for other armies to arrive. First the new of the attack has to be delivered. Then the news of mobilisation has to be spread around. an army has to be gathered and organized. Then it has to march to the front. It is a slow buisness.

You seem to try and compare qunari to a single nation in Thedas, but it would be more accurate to compare them to a continent.

Wether you want to admit it or not, the combined might of TheDas armies stopped the Quanri advance.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The lore says "one sided blood bath."

It also sez "The defenders of those land".
Who was defending them?
The combined armies of TheDas or just the forces of a single nation?
How many qunari were there compared to the defenders?
Without those numbers, your quote is pointless.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Didn't he already agree with that?

[Lotion Soronarr]

So DA:O had Alistairs lines changed in the last second becoase of gameplay? So what?

Cry retcon all you want, lyrium is canonicly needed.
There is no lore contradiction - it exists if two official pieces of lore contradict. Alistairs line is no longer valid (as stated by the devs), hence no contradiction. A change for the better.

The people who hate this the most are pro-mages, because it destroys their "evil chantry uses lyrium just to control tempalrs" theory.

[Allan Schumacher]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Sorry I can't place precisely where I heard this but I recall hearing that an idea for the lyrium requirement could have been some kind of addiction mechanic, but that it wasn't fun for the player. The way I see it is that the PC & friends are generally exceptions to the rule anyway, and the lore still stands.

Yeah there is some level of that.  Sometimes things end up not working out that well, and on some level the PC and the party members kind of have "special little snowflake" status.

I can't speak specifically on why it didn't make it into the game (simply because I don't know why), but if something like that is determined to not be fun, to retroactively go back and rewrite everything about that would be VERY time consuming and hence expensive.  Moreso the farther along the project is.


I mean, it's why Wesley gets infected with the taint but the players and party members don't.  (a bit off topic for this thread but I think serves as a strong illustration).

[dragonflight288]

@ Lotion

Jedi Master of Orion already used evidence that proved me wrong, and I agreed with it.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Templars needed lyrium was the original concept idea.
DA:O was
supposed to have lyrium addiction mechanic, but it was cut in the last
minute (you can find refferences in the code) and Alistairs line was
changed to reflect that.

So tempalrs needing lyrium isn't a change going against the original vision. It IS the original vision.

Doesn't matter final version was that templars don't need lyrium.

Agreed. This is still a retcon, despite the original plan for the second game containing it, because the final product did not.
 a good deal longer. (That's not "best for the Qunari.")

Okay wait wait wait. 

I can follow this somewhat I think, that apparently it was the original idea for Lyrium to be necessary and they wanted this to be part of the gameplay...but then they changed it, and Alistair's infamous line reflects this change.

However, the codices in both Origins and DA2 STILL refer to lyrium being necessary, and so does Asunder, and if I'm not crazily mistaken, Gaider has said something about lyrium being necessary.  So if it was ever planned to have lyrium not be necessary...that idea was scrapped too, because lyrium IS necessary under the current lore.  I think.

It really doesn't make sense for lyrium to be retconned as not being necessary for templar abilities, because that then just begs the question of where the hell those powers come from, if templars are not in fact mages but have to develop their powers somehow, rather than having them in-born.

Alistair calls it a mental discipline in Origins. He says you need a disciplined mind to use templar talents.

The lore says lyrium is necessary for templar abilities, and Gaider is trying to me it absolutely essential. Even Alistair in the comics is taking lyrium to use his templar abilities.

But I'm like you, I'm having a hard time getting over what Alistair specifically says in Origins and thereby have contradicting lore. Especially since most fans don't read the comics.

Oh, no, don't misunderstand me.  I've always accepted that Alistair's statement reflected a plot idea that got scrapped while that dialogue somehow got overlooked in editing.  It's jarring, but unfortunately those things happen.  The notion that lyrium is somehow not necessary just doesn't make sense without providing an explanation of where templar powers come from otherwise.  I was referring to the above because it looked like people were saying that it was now a thing that lyrium isn't necessary after all.

[dragonflight288]

Well then...we'll have to see how things turn out in Inquisition, and see if lyrium's requirement for the templar talents is in the game-play...or if it's part of the quest series itself to get the templar spec. *shrug*

[Silfren]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So DA:O had Alistairs lines changed in the last second becoase of gameplay? So what?

Cry retcon all you want, lyrium is canonicly needed.
There is no lore contradiction - it exists if two official pieces of lore contradict. Alistairs line is no longer valid (as stated by the devs), hence no contradiction. A change for the better.

The people who hate this the most are pro-mages, because it destroys their "evil chantry uses lyrium just to control tempalrs" theory.

Okay, this is getting a little ridiculous.

I don't have any particular problems with Alistair's statement, because I've long since accepted it reflected a change in part of the story that accidentally made it past the final edit before anyone noticed. 

But it DOES create a jarring lore contradiction that makes the whole idea kind of awkward.  To have a main character outright say that lyrium is not necessary for templar talents...there's your official "two pieces of lore contradiction" right here. It's bloody stupid to argue this point.  His line isn't valid, okay...a line that got overlooked by the people in charge of checking for just such plot inconsistencies, like I said.  However, it is still a case of one of the most important characters in the story making a blunt and not-at-all vague statement about the nature of templar abilities, that we have to basically pretend doesn't happen.