2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

/implying that land works like any item.
/implying that Native Americans have anything in common with the Dalish besides land
/implying that reservations are anything like zoos
/implying that we somehow have a right to land when knowing that we don't
/implying that nobody cares

Did I miss anything?

[Medhia Nox]

@Br3ad: Umm... I think you forgot genocide and ethnic cleansing.

[Br3admax]

No I didn't. No one made the Dalish leave. And they didn't leave either, so no. What happened with Native Americans is a lot worse than what happened with the Dalish.

[Senya]

Sorry. I was only making a point in order to emphasize the trouble that will inevitably arise from trying to correct a past injustice with a present injustice. If a family lived on a piece of land for centuries, wouldn't they feel like they own it?

Modifié par almostinsane99, 18 octobre 2013 - 07:36 .

[cjones91]

Br3ad wrote...

No I didn't. No one made the Dalish leave. And they didn't leave either, so no. What happened with Native Americans is a lot worse than what happened with the Dalish.

Uh, the Dalish were forced off of their lands by the Chantry/Orlais.In some ways the Native Americans are alot like the Dalish because their culture was destroyed and their lands were stolen from them.

Modifié par cjones91, 18 octobre 2013 - 07:38 .

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Br3ad: Umm... I think you forgot genocide and ethnic cleansing.

It's funny how people only use those words when it comes to the humans but they could care less about the elves.

[AresKeith]

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Br3ad: Umm... I think you forgot genocide and ethnic cleansing.

It's funny how people only use those words when it comes to the humans but they could care less about the elves.

He was using sarcasm 

[cjones91]

AresKeith wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Br3ad: Umm... I think you forgot genocide and ethnic cleansing.

It's funny how people only use those words when it comes to the humans but they could care less about the elves.

He was using sarcasm 

My point still stands.Whenever people talk about the Dales conflict and the elves retaking them certain posters here use those two words when it comes to the humans only.

[Senya]

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Br3ad: Umm... I think you forgot genocide and ethnic cleansing.

It's funny how people only use those words when it comes to the humans but they could care less about the elves.

The same is true in reverse. I'm concerned with the welfare of the humans who lived in the Dales for arguably longer than the elves. The Dales last about 300 to 400 years. Humans have lived there for 700 years. It's a complicated issue. It would be great if the elves could have the Dales back, but what about the humans? Sure, the nobility and upper class would live somewhere else assuming they are not killed, but the middle and lower classes?

History cannot be changed. The Exalted March happened. But should a similar thing happen in Thedas' present?

Modifié par almostinsane99, 18 octobre 2013 - 07:45 .

[Br3admax]

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

No I didn't. No one made the Dalish leave. And they didn't leave either, so no. What happened with Native Americans is a lot worse than what happened with the Dalish.

Uh, the Dalish were forced off of their lands by the Chantry/Orlais.In some ways the Native Americans are alot like the Dalish because their culture was destroyed and their lands were stolen from them.

No they weren't. Check again, son. They were told they couldn't be a part of human society without adopting human culture. That is why they left. 

[cjones91]

almostinsane99 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Br3ad: Umm... I think you forgot genocide and ethnic cleansing.

It's funny how people only use those words when it comes to the humans but they could care less about the elves.

The same is true in reverse. I'm concerned with the welfare of the humans who lived in the Dales for arguably longer than the elves. The Dales last about 300 to 400 years. Humans have lived there for 700 years. It's a complicated issue. It would be great if the elves could have the Dales back, but what about the humans? Sure, the nobility and upper class would live somewhere else assuming they are not killed, but the middle and lower classes?

History cannot be changed. The Exalted March happened. But should a similar thing happen in Thedas' present?

Why do humans care about the Dales?Why not give the elves just one bit of land after they were ****ed over dozens of times now?

[cjones91]

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

No I didn't. No one made the Dalish leave. And they didn't leave either, so no. What happened with Native Americans is a lot worse than what happened with the Dalish.

Uh, the Dalish were forced off of their lands by the Chantry/Orlais.In some ways the Native Americans are alot like the Dalish because their culture was destroyed and their lands were stolen from them.

No they weren't. Check again, son. They were told they couldn't be a part of human society without adopting human culture. That is why they left. 

First off don't call me son.Second their lands were stolen from them because the Chantry/Orlais would have killed the elves if they stayed.When the enemy invades your country they either make you leave or kill enough of your people that the choice then becomes leave or die.

[Senya]

cjones91 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Br3ad: Umm... I think you forgot genocide and ethnic cleansing.

It's funny how people only use those words when it comes to the humans but they could care less about the elves.

The
same is true in reverse. I'm concerned with the welfare of the humans
who lived in the Dales for arguably longer than the elves. The Dales
last about 300 to 400 years. Humans have lived there for 700 years. It's
a complicated issue. It would be great if the elves could have the
Dales back, but what about the humans? Sure, the nobility and upper
class would live somewhere else assuming they are not killed, but the
middle and lower classes?

History cannot be changed. The Exalted March happened. But should a similar thing happen in Thedas' present?

Why
do humans care about the Dales?Why not give the elves just one bit of
land after they were ****ed over dozens of times now?

Because two wrongs don't make a right!

The Dales have been inhabited by humans for 700 years. None who live there participated in the Exalted Marches. If they are uprooted, the only ones who would have anywhere to go would be the rich and the nobility. You'd just have peasants wandering around and possibly dying off. It is likely there won't be enough land to sustain the influx of humans leaving the Dales.

That's why compromise is necessary. So no one has to die for the Dalish to get their land. You can speak about how much of an atrocity the Dalish losing their homeland is if you advocate for a similiar atrocity!

Modifié par almostinsane99, 18 octobre 2013 - 07:53 .

[dragonflight288]

When it comes to the Dales, I wouldn't worry about kicking humans out or purging them to give it back to the elves. At the end of Asunder, the humans are fleeing the Dales en masse, as a result of the Orlesian Civil War. Some will still be there, but at present, there is an opportunity for the elves to regain their land without displacing the humans, who have already fled.

If it's possible, as Inquisitor I'd give them the land and then post a contingent of soldiers at the borders to turn away Orlesians and the Chantry until the Dalish have settled and set up shop. The humans won't be able to complain (too much) because they already abandoned the land.

[cjones91]

almostinsane99 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Br3ad: Umm... I think you forgot genocide and ethnic cleansing.

It's funny how people only use those words when it comes to the humans but they could care less about the elves.

The
same is true in reverse. I'm concerned with the welfare of the humans
who lived in the Dales for arguably longer than the elves. The Dales
last about 300 to 400 years. Humans have lived there for 700 years. It's
a complicated issue. It would be great if the elves could have the
Dales back, but what about the humans? Sure, the nobility and upper
class would live somewhere else assuming they are not killed, but the
middle and lower classes?

History cannot be changed. The Exalted March happened. But should a similar thing happen in Thedas' present?

Why
do humans care about the Dales?Why not give the elves just one bit of
land after they were ****ed over dozens of times now?

Because two wrongs don't make a right!

The Dales have been inhabited by humans for 700 years. None who live there participated in the Exalted Marches. If they are uprooted, the only ones who would have anywhere to go would be the rich and the nobility. You'd just have peasants wandering around and possibly dying off. It is likely there won't be enough land to sustain the influx of humans leaving the Dales.

That's why compromise is necessary. So no one has to die for the Dalish to get their land. You can speak about how much of an atrocity the Dalish losing their homeland is if you advocate for a similiar atrocity!

Tell you what:When the humans split the Dales(which they won't)then I might support them.

[LobselVith8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

When it comes to the Dales, I wouldn't worry about kicking humans out or purging them to give it back to the elves. At the end of Asunder, the humans are fleeing the Dales en masse, as a result of the Orlesian Civil War. Some will still be there, but at present, there is an opportunity for the elves to regain their land without displacing the humans, who have already fled.

If it's possible, as Inquisitor I'd give them the land and then post a contingent of soldiers at the borders to turn away Orlesians and the Chantry until the Dalish have settled and set up shop. The humans won't be able to complain (too much) because they already abandoned the land.

I'd certainly like to accomplish that as a Dalish Inquisitor. It would be better than the alternative that some suggested on the last page - that the elves should simply make themselves useful to humans, as though their freedom of religion and culture are meaningless.

[BlueMagitek]

Well if their religion keeps breaking the Fade, I'm going to have to kindly ask them to stahp, pleaze.

[Br3admax]

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

No I didn't. No one made the Dalish leave. And they didn't leave either, so no. What happened with Native Americans is a lot worse than what happened with the Dalish.

Uh, the Dalish were forced off of their lands by the Chantry/Orlais.In some ways the Native Americans are alot like the Dalish because their culture was destroyed and their lands were stolen from them.

No they weren't. Check again, son. They were told they couldn't be a part of human society without adopting human culture. That is why they left. 

First off don't call me son.Second their lands were stolen from them because the Chantry/Orlais would have killed the elves if they stayed.When the enemy invades your country they either make you leave or kill enough of your people that the choice then becomes leave or die.

Listen, son, nothing stops me from calling you that, so I'll continue to. Second, the Dalish still live in the countries that you claim that they were removed from. And this nonsense about making people leave is without a doubt wrong to the nth degree. You don't kick people out of the land that you claim. You absorb them so that you can use their resources and their knowledge. A day in any history class can tell you that. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 18 octobre 2013 - 09:00 .

[cjones91]

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

No I didn't. No one made the Dalish leave. And they didn't leave either, so no. What happened with Native Americans is a lot worse than what happened with the Dalish.

Uh, the Dalish were forced off of their lands by the Chantry/Orlais.In some ways the Native Americans are alot like the Dalish because their culture was destroyed and their lands were stolen from them.

No they weren't. Check again, son. They were told they couldn't be a part of human society without adopting human culture. That is why they left. 

First off don't call me son.Second their lands were stolen from them because the Chantry/Orlais would have killed the elves if they stayed.When the enemy invades your country they either make you leave or kill enough of your people that the choice then becomes leave or die.

Listen, son, nothing stops me from calling you that, so I'll continue to. Second, the Dalish still live in the countries that you claim that they were removed from. And this nonsense about making people leave is without a doubt wrong to the nth degree. You don't kick people out of the land that you claim. You absorb them so that you can use their resources and their knowledge. A day in any history class can tell you that. 

Since I'm going to be 22 in two months calling me son implies that you think I'm a kid.One major tactic to taking over a country is to kick out the opposition while keeping those that submit to your rule.Since many Dalish refused to be converted they would have been killed on the spot compared to the city elves who begrudgingly submitted to the Chantry.

[Silfren]

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

No I didn't. No one made the Dalish leave. And they didn't leave either, so no. What happened with Native Americans is a lot worse than what happened with the Dalish.

Uh, the Dalish were forced off of their lands by the Chantry/Orlais.In some ways the Native Americans are alot like the Dalish because their culture was destroyed and their lands were stolen from them.

No they weren't. Check again, son. They were told they couldn't be a part of human society without adopting human culture. That is why they left. 

First off don't call me son.Second their lands were stolen from them because the Chantry/Orlais would have killed the elves if they stayed.When the enemy invades your country they either make you leave or kill enough of your people that the choice then becomes leave or die.

Listen, son, nothing stops me from calling you that, so I'll continue to. Second, the Dalish still live in the countries that you claim that they were removed from. And this nonsense about making people leave is without a doubt wrong to the nth degree. You don't kick people out of the land that you claim. You absorb them so that you can use their resources and their knowledge. A day in any history class can tell you that. 

Of course nothing stops you from doing that.  But you were asked to stop, so y'know, in the interest of civility and respect it wouldn't kill you.  It's condescending as f*ck.

Modifié par Silfren, 18 octobre 2013 - 09:33 .

[Br3admax]

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

No I didn't. No one made the Dalish leave. And they didn't leave either, so no. What happened with Native Americans is a lot worse than what happened with the Dalish.

Uh, the Dalish were forced off of their lands by the Chantry/Orlais.In some ways the Native Americans are alot like the Dalish because their culture was destroyed and their lands were stolen from them.

No they weren't. Check again, son. They were told they couldn't be a part of human society without adopting human culture. That is why they left. 

First off don't call me son.Second their lands were stolen from them because the Chantry/Orlais would have killed the elves if they stayed.When the enemy invades your country they either make you leave or kill enough of your people that the choice then becomes leave or die.

Listen, son, nothing stops me from calling you that, so I'll continue to. Second, the Dalish still live in the countries that you claim that they were removed from. And this nonsense about making people leave is without a doubt wrong to the nth degree. You don't kick people out of the land that you claim. You absorb them so that you can use their resources and their knowledge. A day in any history class can tell you that. 

Since I'm going to be 22 in two months calling me son implies that you think I'm a kid.One major tactic to taking over a country is to kick out the opposition while keeping those that submit to your rule.Since many Dalish refused to be converted they would have been killed on the spot compared to the city elves who begrudgingly submitted to the Chantry.

I don't say it because of you being a kid, espcially sense son has absolutely nothing to do with that in the long run. It's the way that I talk, which is never to offend, but to educate/indoctrinate. 

Second, that has nothing to do with the point, at all. It supports my point of not being "forced to leave" per se. Other governments of the time did very similar things. The Dalish would have done the same. I'm not going to make double standards because I support one side or the other, but in this time, might was right. In Thedas, might is right, and if you can't control the area that you live in, you can't expect others to repsect you due to your civility.The elves tried to spark a war and were defeated, That's how this story ends. They have no right to demand anything. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 18 octobre 2013 - 09:38 .

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

When it comes to the Dales, I wouldn't worry about kicking humans out or purging them to give it back to the elves. At the end of Asunder, the humans are fleeing the Dales en masse, as a result of the Orlesian Civil War. Some will still be there, but at present, there is an opportunity for the elves to regain their land without displacing the humans, who have already fled.

If it's possible, as Inquisitor I'd give them the land and then post a contingent of soldiers at the borders to turn away Orlesians and the Chantry until the Dalish have settled and set up shop. The humans won't be able to complain (too much) because they already abandoned the land.

I'd certainly like to accomplish that as a Dalish Inquisitor. It would be better than the alternative that some suggested on the last page - that the elves should simply make themselves useful to humans, as though their freedom of religion and culture are meaningless.

It has nothing to do with making themselves useful to humans and everything to do with making themselves a responsible part of the global (or Thedas) community as a whole.  Which is comprised of humans, dwarves and elves.

Sitting out a global catastrophe while everyone else suffers just makes them resent you and be less inclined to look favorably on you in the future.  When you do nothing but watch while everyone else tries to save the block from burning down, you don't get to be surprised when later you get in a fight with your neighbor and everyone takes his side.  Or, in the case of the Dales, when the rest of the world is more than willing to join an Exalted March to kick your teeth in and then accept it when the church decides the heroes of your douchebag people have no place in the holy texts anymore.

The Elves are NEVER going to be able to put up serious opposition to humanity.  If there were ever a time that was possible, it is long gone.  Is there an outside chance the elves could vulture themselves back into the Dales for a bit while the rest of the world is dealing with the global threat?  Maybe.  And when the global threat is past, humanity will rebuild itself, look around, and say "F*****g knife ears."  Only this time, I imagine humanity would be less inclined to stop with absorbtion or exile.

The Dalish are supposed to be big on their history.  Here's a lesson they should be taking to heart from Andraste onward:

When they play nice with others, they get rewarded with land and their heroes are venerated across racial lines.  When they don't, the dominant species of the continent deals with the global threat, licks it's collective wounds and then punishes them for not helping.

Modifié par TK514, 18 octobre 2013 - 09:48 .

[cjones91]

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

When it comes to the Dales, I wouldn't worry about kicking humans out or purging them to give it back to the elves. At the end of Asunder, the humans are fleeing the Dales en masse, as a result of the Orlesian Civil War. Some will still be there, but at present, there is an opportunity for the elves to regain their land without displacing the humans, who have already fled.

If it's possible, as Inquisitor I'd give them the land and then post a contingent of soldiers at the borders to turn away Orlesians and the Chantry until the Dalish have settled and set up shop. The humans won't be able to complain (too much) because they already abandoned the land.

I'd certainly like to accomplish that as a Dalish Inquisitor. It would be better than the alternative that some suggested on the last page - that the elves should simply make themselves useful to humans, as though their freedom of religion and culture are meaningless.

It has nothing to do with making themselves useful to humans and everything to do with making themselves a responsible part of the global (or Thedas) community as a whole.  Which is comprised of humans, dwarves and elves.

Sitting out a global catastrophe while everyone else suffers just makes them resent you and be less inclined to look favorably on you in the future.  When you do nothing but watch while everyone else tries to save the block from burning down, you don't get to be surprised when later you get in a fight with your neighbor and everyone takes his side.  Or, in the case of the Dales, when the rest of the world is more than willing to join an Exalted March to kick your teeth in and then accept it when the church decides the heroes of your douchebag people have no place in the holy texts anymore.

The Elves are NEVER going to be able to put up serious opposition to humanity.  If there were ever a time that was possible, it is long gone.  Is there an outside chance the elves could vulture themselves back into the Dales for a bit while the rest of the world is dealing with the global threat?  Maybe.  And when the global threat is past, humanity will rebuild itself, look around, and say "F*****g knife ears."  Only this time, I imagine humanity would be less inclined to stop with absorbtion or exile.

The Dalish are supposed to be big on their history.  Here's a lesson they should be taking to heart from Andraste onward:

When they play nice with others, they get rewarded with land and their heroes are venerated across racial lines.  When they don't, the dominant species of the continent deals with the global threat, licks it's collective wounds and then punishes them for not helping.

Using your logic the dwarves would have been perfectly jusitified in invading the surface since nobody but the Grey Warden has helped them combat the darkspawn.

[Br3admax]

cjones91 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

When it comes to the Dales, I wouldn't worry about kicking humans out or purging them to give it back to the elves. At the end of Asunder, the humans are fleeing the Dales en masse, as a result of the Orlesian Civil War. Some will still be there, but at present, there is an opportunity for the elves to regain their land without displacing the humans, who have already fled.

If it's possible, as Inquisitor I'd give them the land and then post a contingent of soldiers at the borders to turn away Orlesians and the Chantry until the Dalish have settled and set up shop. The humans won't be able to complain (too much) because they already abandoned the land.

I'd certainly like to accomplish that as a Dalish Inquisitor. It would be better than the alternative that some suggested on the last page - that the elves should simply make themselves useful to humans, as though their freedom of religion and culture are meaningless.

It has nothing to do with making themselves useful to humans and everything to do with making themselves a responsible part of the global (or Thedas) community as a whole.  Which is comprised of humans, dwarves and elves.

Sitting out a global catastrophe while everyone else suffers just makes them resent you and be less inclined to look favorably on you in the future.  When you do nothing but watch while everyone else tries to save the block from burning down, you don't get to be surprised when later you get in a fight with your neighbor and everyone takes his side.  Or, in the case of the Dales, when the rest of the world is more than willing to join an Exalted March to kick your teeth in and then accept it when the church decides the heroes of your douchebag people have no place in the holy texts anymore.

The Elves are NEVER going to be able to put up serious opposition to humanity.  If there were ever a time that was possible, it is long gone.  Is there an outside chance the elves could vulture themselves back into the Dales for a bit while the rest of the world is dealing with the global threat?  Maybe.  And when the global threat is past, humanity will rebuild itself, look around, and say "F*****g knife ears."  Only this time, I imagine humanity would be less inclined to stop with absorbtion or exile.

The Dalish are supposed to be big on their history.  Here's a lesson they should be taking to heart from Andraste onward:

When they play nice with others, they get rewarded with land and their heroes are venerated across racial lines.  When they don't, the dominant species of the continent deals with the global threat, licks it's collective wounds and then punishes them for not helping.

Using your logic the dwarves would have been perfectly jusitified in invading the surface since nobody but the Grey Warden has helped them combat the darkspawn.

Grey Wardens come from every country, just saying. 

As to your point: No, no. I don't believe that though. I frown upon bullying and pilaging, but I'm also saying that if they can, they can. If you think that I'm saying anything is justified your reading me wrong. I'm saying that that justifying shouldn't matter. In war, especially the ones that you start, you must have strength. Only the victors get to say what is right and what is wrong. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 18 octobre 2013 - 10:00 .

[TK514]

cjones91 wrote...
Using your logic the dwarves would have been perfectly jusitified in invading the surface since nobody but the Grey Warden has helped them combat the darkspawn.

Sure, that's true if you ignore everything we know about the dwarven culture and attitudes and just pretend they are short surfacers.

A better analogy would be suggesting the dwarves of Kal-Sharok and every other thaig would be perfectly justified in invading Orzammar for leaving them to die.

Modifié par TK514, 18 octobre 2013 - 10:05 .