2497 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
Using your logic the dwarves would have been perfectly jusitified in invading the surface since nobody but the Grey Warden has helped them combat the darkspawn.

But they have. When the Archdemon rises and the Darkspawn take to surface, who's there to stop them? The humans, they defeat the horde and slay the Old God. Had there not been humans around, the dwarves would have been overrun by A Bligth attacking from both the surface and underground.
Every race has has a part to play in defeating the Spawn. The dwarven duty is to serve as a meat shield while the human kingdoms recuperate just in time for the bout with the next Archdemon.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Xilizhra wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And if that's all that's morally necessary, we'll grind Orlais into the dirt and call it justified.

As I said, the elves are free to do so, but it'd only make them hypocrites.

So you're saying there's no moral option other than sucking up to thieves and usurpers?

Well, there's slowing dying out into obscruity. Commiting suicide via military campaign. Or leaving the entire continent to find new land.

Those really are all your alternatives.

[cjones91]

TK514 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Using your logic the dwarves would have been perfectly jusitified in invading the surface since nobody but the Grey Warden has helped them combat the darkspawn.

Sure, that's true if you ignore everything we know about the dwarven culture and attitudes and just pretend they are short surfacers.

A better analogy would be suggesting the dwarves of Kal-Sharok and every other thaig would be perfectly justified for invading Orzammar for leaving them to die.

The dwarves have complained for a long time about how nobody helps them out against the darkspawn unless a Blight happens.You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

Modifié par cjones91, 18 octobre 2013 - 10:09 .

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Using your logic the dwarves would have been perfectly jusitified in invading the surface since nobody but the Grey Warden has helped them combat the darkspawn.

But they have. When the Archdemon rises and the Darkspawn take to surface, who's there to stop them? The humans, they defeat the horde and slay the Old God. Had there not been humans around, the dwarves would have been overrun by A Bligth attacking from both the surface and underground.
Every race has has a part to play in defeating the Spawn. The dwarven duty is to serve as a meat shield while the human kingdoms recuperate just in time for the bout with the next Archdemon.

Actually if the surfacers really wanted to help fight the darkspawn they would have sent men to assist the dwarves in the Deep Roads.Instead they sit on their hands until a Blight happens and then after it ends they pretend the darkspawn are gone for good.The dwarves have complained for centuries about how the surfacers like to pretend the darkspawn are gone while they fight day and night to prevent the darkspawn from fully invading the surface.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

cjones91 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.

Awkward.

[Cainhurst Crow]

cjones91 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

When it comes to the Dales, I wouldn't worry about kicking humans out or purging them to give it back to the elves. At the end of Asunder, the humans are fleeing the Dales en masse, as a result of the Orlesian Civil War. Some will still be there, but at present, there is an opportunity for the elves to regain their land without displacing the humans, who have already fled.

If it's possible, as Inquisitor I'd give them the land and then post a contingent of soldiers at the borders to turn away Orlesians and the Chantry until the Dalish have settled and set up shop. The humans won't be able to complain (too much) because they already abandoned the land.

I'd certainly like to accomplish that as a Dalish Inquisitor. It would be better than the alternative that some suggested on the last page - that the elves should simply make themselves useful to humans, as though their freedom of religion and culture are meaningless.

It has nothing to do with making themselves useful to humans and everything to do with making themselves a responsible part of the global (or Thedas) community as a whole.  Which is comprised of humans, dwarves and elves.

Sitting out a global catastrophe while everyone else suffers just makes them resent you and be less inclined to look favorably on you in the future.  When you do nothing but watch while everyone else tries to save the block from burning down, you don't get to be surprised when later you get in a fight with your neighbor and everyone takes his side.  Or, in the case of the Dales, when the rest of the world is more than willing to join an Exalted March to kick your teeth in and then accept it when the church decides the heroes of your douchebag people have no place in the holy texts anymore.

The Elves are NEVER going to be able to put up serious opposition to humanity.  If there were ever a time that was possible, it is long gone.  Is there an outside chance the elves could vulture themselves back into the Dales for a bit while the rest of the world is dealing with the global threat?  Maybe.  And when the global threat is past, humanity will rebuild itself, look around, and say "F*****g knife ears."  Only this time, I imagine humanity would be less inclined to stop with absorbtion or exile.

The Dalish are supposed to be big on their history.  Here's a lesson they should be taking to heart from Andraste onward:

When they play nice with others, they get rewarded with land and their heroes are venerated across racial lines.  When they don't, the dominant species of the continent deals with the global threat, licks it's collective wounds and then punishes them for not helping.

Using your logic the dwarves would have been perfectly jusitified in invading the surface since nobody but the Grey Warden has helped them combat the darkspawn.

They should have if they wanted land above, but they were content with living below ground and equated surface life into being for the crazy and the casteless.

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Using your logic the dwarves would have been perfectly jusitified in invading the surface since nobody but the Grey Warden has helped them combat the darkspawn.

But they have. When the Archdemon rises and the Darkspawn take to surface, who's there to stop them? The humans, they defeat the horde and slay the Old God. Had there not been humans around, the dwarves would have been overrun by A Bligth attacking from both the surface and underground.
Every race has has a part to play in defeating the Spawn. The dwarven duty is to serve as a meat shield while the human kingdoms recuperate just in time for the bout with the next Archdemon.

True, but by extension, if there were no humans, there would have never been darkpawn in the first place. Just saying.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

cjones91 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.

Awkward.

Different contexts for vastly different scenarios.

[TK514]

cjones91 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Using your logic the dwarves would have been perfectly jusitified in invading the surface since nobody but the Grey Warden has helped them combat the darkspawn.

Sure, that's true if you ignore everything we know about the dwarven culture and attitudes and just pretend they are short surfacers.

A better analogy would be suggesting the dwarves of Kal-Sharok and every other thaig would be perfectly justified for invading Orzammar for leaving them to die.

The dwarves have complained for a long time about how nobody helps them out against the darkspawn unless a Blight happens.You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

Actually, I'm saying that when you screw over your neighbors, expect the rest to take the other guy's side when you get in a fight with one of them.  And if you do it a second time, don't be surprised when you get worse than the first time.  There's not a lot of ambiguity there.

The elves explicitly turned their backs on the rest of the world and left them to die at the hands of the darkspawn, so the rest of the world took Orlais' side when it came to dispute.  If the elves are stupid enough to weaken Thedas again when everyone in the world is threatened, they shouldn't be surprised when the rest of the world acts to redress that wrong at a later date.

[Cainhurst Crow]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

cjones91 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.

Awkward.

Different contexts for vastly different scenarios.

You mean the context of "I want to win this argument and show those mean elf bulliers what for not matter what"?

[cjones91]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

cjones91 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.

Awkward.

Different contexts for vastly different scenarios.

You mean the context of "I want to win this argument and show those mean elf bulliers what for not matter what"?

No,one side has been treated like **** for centuries while the other has been enjoying the fruits of stolen property.It's two totally different events but like always people love to twist my posts out of context.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
Actually if the surfacers really wanted to help fight the darkspawn they would have sent men to assist the dwarves in the Deep Roads.

Why? The dwarves rest and rebuild while there is a Blight, and the humans rest and rebuild while there isn't one.

The dwarves have complained for centuries about how the surfacers like to pretend the darkspawn are gone while they fight day and night to prevent the darkspawn from fully invading the surface.

They fulfill their duty admirably. Their sacrifice will be honored in the coming empire.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

cjones91 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.

Awkward.

Different contexts for vastly different scenarios.

Nope.

Post 1: I think people shouldn't invade other countries just because they feel they have been wrongued.
Post 2: I think the humans deserve to be invaded because the elves feel they have been wrongued.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Actually if the surfacers really wanted to help fight the darkspawn they would have sent men to assist the dwarves in the Deep Roads.

Why? The dwarves rest and rebuild while there is a Blight, and the humans rest and rebuild while there isn't one.

The dwarves have complained for centuries about how the surfacers like to pretend the darkspawn are gone while they fight day and night to prevent the darkspawn from fully invading the surface.

They fulfill their duty admirably. Their sacrifice will be honored in the coming empire.

The dwarves never rest when a Blight ends.They send recon parties into the Deep Roads to push the Darkspawn back after they have retreated from the surface.

And good luck trying to defeat all of the darkspawn invading the surface when the dwarves die because nobody was willing to send them some supplies or extra men.

Modifié par cjones91, 18 octobre 2013 - 10:29 .

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

cjones91 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.

Awkward.

Different contexts for vastly different scenarios.

Nope.

Post 1: I think people shouldn't invade other countries just because they feel they have been wrongued.
Post 2: I think the humans deserve to be invaded because the elves feel they have been wrongued.

Nice try but that post was me saying that the elves have a justifcation for taking back the Dales because they were treated like crap for centuries.The elves have a actual reason for doing the things they are doing,unlike the humans who felt that the elves did'nt do enough to help them in the Second Blight.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
The dwarves never rest when a Blight ends.They send recon parties into the Deep Roads to push the Darkspawn back after they have retreated from the surface.

Did you read what I say? "Dwarves rest and rebuild while there is a Blight, humans rest and rebuild while there isn't one."
If the Spawn have retreated from the surface, then the humans have done their part and the Blight is over. If the Blight is over, then it's time for the dwarves to fight so, obviously, the'll sed recon parties amongs other military tactis.

And good luck trying to defeat all of the darkspawn invading the surface when the dwarves die because nobody was willing to send them some supplies or extra men.

So long as they hold out for two more Bligths...

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

cjones91 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.

Awkward.

Different contexts for vastly different scenarios.

Nope.

Post 1: I think people shouldn't invade other countries just because they feel they have been wrongued.
Post 2: I think the humans deserve to be invaded because the elves feel they have been wrongued.

Nice try but that post was me saying that the elves have a justifcation for taking back the Dales because they were treated like crap for centuries.The elves have a actual reason for doing the things they are doing,unlike the humans who felt that the elves did'nt do enough to help them in the Second Blight.

So, it's wrong for people to invade another country because of perceived sligths (mistreatment being a slight) except if you say it's right, in which case it's totally fine.

[Senya]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Actually if the surfacers really wanted to help fight the darkspawn they would have sent men to assist the dwarves in the Deep Roads.

Why? The dwarves rest and rebuild while there is a Blight, and the humans rest and rebuild while there isn't one.

The dwarves have complained for centuries about how the surfacers like to pretend the darkspawn are gone while they fight day and night to prevent the darkspawn from fully invading the surface.

They fulfill their duty admirably. Their sacrifice will be honored in the coming empire.

The dwarves never rest when a Blight ends.They send recon parties into the Deep Roads to push the Darkspawn back after they have retreated from the surface.

And good luck trying to defeat all of the darkspawn invading the surface when the dwarves die because nobody was willing to send them some supplies or extra men.

Actually, a Dwarf Warden can request human aid for the Dwarves as a boon. If Bhelen is king, he accepts it, but if Harrowmont is king he, with presumably the support of the Assembly, rejects any aid other than some supplies. Judging by the fact that Harrowmont is a traditionalist, his rejection of surface military aid would be the traditionalist response. And Orzammar has been rule by tradition for thousands of years so...

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
The dwarves never rest when a Blight ends.They send recon parties into the Deep Roads to push the Darkspawn back after they have retreated from the surface.

Did you read what I say? "Dwarves rest and rebuild while there is a Blight, humans rest and rebuild while there isn't one."
If the Spawn have retreated from the surface, then the humans have done their part and the Blight is over. If the Blight is over, then it's time for the dwarves to fight so, obviously, the'll sed recon parties amongs other military tactis.

And good luck trying to defeat all of the darkspawn invading the surface when the dwarves die because nobody was willing to send them some supplies or extra men.

So long as they hold out for two more Bligths...

I read what you said and I simply disagreed with it.The dwarves don't rest at all when it comes to fighting the darkspawn,they train,recruit,forge weapons,and constantly build up defense points to push the darkspawn back.

To the dwarves fighting the darkspawn is a full time job and resting means their enemy can start gathering strength.

[Br3admax]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
The dwarves never rest when a Blight ends.They send recon parties into the Deep Roads to push the Darkspawn back after they have retreated from the surface.

Did you read what I say? "Dwarves rest and rebuild while there is a Blight, humans rest and rebuild while there isn't one."

This I don't agree with. Blights last a few decades at the most. Dwarves deal with the darkspawn for centuries without end. 

[MisterJB]

[quote]cjones91 wrote...
So long as they hold out for two more Bligths...[/quote]I read what you said and I simply disagreed with it.The dwarves don't rest at all when it comes to fighting the darkspawn,they train,recruit,forge weapons,and constantly build up defense points to push the darkspawn back.

To the dwarves fighting the darkspawn is a full time job and resting means their enemy can start gathering strength.
[/quote]
That's called "rebuilding".

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

cjones91 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.

Awkward.

Different contexts for vastly different scenarios.

Nope.

Post 1: I think people shouldn't invade other countries just because they feel they have been wrongued.
Post 2: I think the humans deserve to be invaded because the elves feel they have been wrongued.

Nice try but that post was me saying that the elves have a justifcation for taking back the Dales because they were treated like crap for centuries.The elves have a actual reason for doing the things they are doing,unlike the humans who felt that the elves did'nt do enough to help them in the Second Blight.

So, it's wrong for people to invade another country because of perceived sligths (mistreatment being a slight) except if you say it's right, in which case it's totally fine.

What happened to the elves isn't a perceived slight.....it actually happened.They were stripped of their homes and culture, while most were forced to live in slums where literally anyone can walk in and do whatever they want to the elves with no consequences.

[cjones91]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...
So long as they hold out for two more Bligths...[/quote]I read what you said and I simply disagreed with it.The dwarves don't rest at all when it comes to fighting the darkspawn,they train,recruit,forge weapons,and constantly build up defense points to push the darkspawn back.

To the dwarves fighting the darkspawn is a full time job and resting means their enemy can start gathering strength.
[/quote]
That's called "rebuilding".[/quote]You said the dwarves take breaks inbetween Blights,I gave you proof that's not the case and now you are back pedalling.

[Cainhurst Crow]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

cjones91 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.

Awkward.

Different contexts for vastly different scenarios.

Nope.

Post 1: I think people shouldn't invade other countries just because they feel they have been wrongued.
Post 2: I think the humans deserve to be invaded because the elves feel they have been wrongued.

Nice try but that post was me saying that the elves have a justifcation for taking back the Dales because they were treated like crap for centuries.The elves have a actual reason for doing the things they are doing,unlike the humans who felt that the elves did'nt do enough to help them in the Second Blight.

Seems like someone's been listening to one too many of sarel's fairytales. The dalish began to expand after the second blight by taking the town of red crossing, than Montsimmard, than set their sights on Val Royeaux. It could be understandable why they did it, seeing as how tensions between the two sides had been mounting, but the dalish never the less began a campaign of expansion even if to try and make some form of point that the orlesians decided to opposed. Originally it was just the dales vs orlesians, but when the other nations saw their ally from the second blight being threatened by the ****s who sat by and did nothing against the darkspawn, they decided to help their ally and the dalish lost.

They are the losers of a war they started, and they are paying the price. Using your logic, tevinter has every right to invade thedas and take over agian, since they rightly shed their blood winning and defending those territories in the first place only for a cult to rise up and take it all away.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
You said the dwarves take breaks inbetween Blights,I gave you proof that's not the case and now you are back pedalling.

Do you, by any chance, believe that any country in the world only recruits soldiers, trains them, forge weapons, etc, if there is an active war going on?
The dwarves rest and rebuild while there isn't a Blight. Part of rebuilding involves preparing for the certainty of the next war.