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[cjones91]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

cjones91 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.

Awkward.

Different contexts for vastly different scenarios.

Nope.

Post 1: I think people shouldn't invade other countries just because they feel they have been wrongued.
Post 2: I think the humans deserve to be invaded because the elves feel they have been wrongued.

Nice try but that post was me saying that the elves have a justifcation for taking back the Dales because they were treated like crap for centuries.The elves have a actual reason for doing the things they are doing,unlike the humans who felt that the elves did'nt do enough to help them in the Second Blight.

Seems like someone's been listening to one too many of sarel's fairytales. The dalish began to expand after the second blight by taking the town of red crossing, than Montsimmard, than set their sights on Val Royeaux. It could be understandable why they did it, seeing as how tensions between the two sides had been mounting, but the dalish never the less began a campaign of expansion even if to try and make some form of point that the orlesians decided to opposed. Originally it was just the dales vs orlesians, but when the other nations saw their ally from the second blight being threatened by the ****s who sat by and did nothing against the darkspawn, they decided to help their ally and the dalish lost.

They are the losers of a war they started, and they are paying the price. Using your logic, tevinter has every right to invade thedas and take over agian, since they rightly shed their blood winning and defending those territories in the first place only for a cult to rise up and take it all away.

How many times do I have to say I'm not Pro Elf?And I think you're confusing Orlais with the Dales because the Orlesian Empire is the one with a history of ruthless expasion and possibly was the one who instigated things with the Dales.

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You said the dwarves take breaks inbetween Blights,I gave you proof that's not the case and now you are back pedalling.

Do you, by any chance, believe that any country in the world only recruits soldiers, trains them, forge weapons, etc, if there is an active war going on?
The dwarves rest and rebuild while there isn't a Blight. Part of rebuilding involves preparing for the certainty of the next war.

Fighting darkspawn has become something ingrained into dwarven society, they even have an entire military force dedicated to it, the legion of the dead. That doesn't really speak of a people who get rest, but who are constantly beseiged but have found a way to hold their ground.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
What happened to the elves isn't a perceived slight.....it actually happened.They were stripped of their homes and culture, while most were forced to live in slums where literally anyone can walk in and do whatever they want to the elves with no consequences.

And the elves also stood aside while darkspawn took human cities. The elves also sacked many human cities, Val-Royeaux included. All of these things actually happened.
So, again, it's wrong for countries to invade others because of sligths, except if you agree with them. And you, of course are the sole judge of what justifies a war and what doesn't.

[Cainhurst Crow]

cjones91 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

cjones91 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.

Awkward.

Different contexts for vastly different scenarios.

Nope.

Post 1: I think people shouldn't invade other countries just because they feel they have been wrongued.
Post 2: I think the humans deserve to be invaded because the elves feel they have been wrongued.

Nice try but that post was me saying that the elves have a justifcation for taking back the Dales because they were treated like crap for centuries.The elves have a actual reason for doing the things they are doing,unlike the humans who felt that the elves did'nt do enough to help them in the Second Blight.

Seems like someone's been listening to one too many of sarel's fairytales. The dalish began to expand after the second blight by taking the town of red crossing, than Montsimmard, than set their sights on Val Royeaux. It could be understandable why they did it, seeing as how tensions between the two sides had been mounting, but the dalish never the less began a campaign of expansion even if to try and make some form of point that the orlesians decided to opposed. Originally it was just the dales vs orlesians, but when the other nations saw their ally from the second blight being threatened by the ****s who sat by and did nothing against the darkspawn, they decided to help their ally and the dalish lost.

They are the losers of a war they started, and they are paying the price. Using your logic, tevinter has every right to invade thedas and take over agian, since they rightly shed their blood winning and defending those territories in the first place only for a cult to rise up and take it all away.

How many times do I have to say I'm not Pro Elf?And I think you're confusing Orlais with the Dales because the Orlesian Empire is the one with a history of ruthless expasion and possibly was the one who instigated things with the Dales.

And the dalish are still the ones who took red crossing and montsimmard. Histroy says this, everyone knows this, except the dalish who have glossed over that part of their histroy as "racist humans" being racist.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
What happened to the elves isn't a perceived slight.....it actually happened.They were stripped of their homes and culture, while most were forced to live in slums where literally anyone can walk in and do whatever they want to the elves with no consequences.

And the elves also stood aside while darkspawn took human cities. The elves also sacked many human cities, Val-Royeaux included. All of these things actually happened.
So, again, it's wrong for countries to invade others because of sligths, except if you agree with them. And you, of course are the sole judge of what justifies a war and what doesn't.

First off it was one human city and I highly doubt the humans would've done things differently if the roles were reversed and the elves were being attacked by darkspawn.Also you are leaving out several details that could have led up to the sacking of Val Royeaux.

[cjones91]

[quote]Darth Brotarian wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...

[quote]Darth Brotarian wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...
You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.
[/quote]

[quote]cjones91 wrote...

[quote]GodWood wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma[/quote]Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?[/quote]Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.
[/quote]
Awkward.
[/quote]Different contexts for vastly different scenarios.
[/quote]

Nope.

Post 1: I think people shouldn't invade other countries just because they feel they have been wrongued.
Post 2: I think the humans deserve to be invaded because the elves feel they have been wrongued.
[/quote]Nice try but that post was me saying that the elves have a justifcation for taking back the Dales because they were treated like crap for centuries.The elves have a actual reason for doing the things they are doing,unlike the humans who felt that the elves did'nt do enough to help them in the Second Blight.
[/quote]

Seems like someone's been listening to one too many of sarel's fairytales. The dalish began to expand after the second blight by taking the town of red crossing, than Montsimmard, than set their sights on Val Royeaux. It could be understandable why they did it, seeing as how tensions between the two sides had been mounting, but the dalish never the less began a campaign of expansion even if to try and make some form of point that the orlesians decided to opposed. Originally it was just the dales vs orlesians, but when the other nations saw their ally from the second blight being threatened by the ****s who sat by and did nothing against the darkspawn, they decided to help their ally and the dalish lost.

They are the losers of a war they started, and they are paying the price. Using your logic, tevinter has every right to invade thedas and take over agian, since they rightly shed their blood winning and defending those territories in the first place only for a cult to rise up and take it all away.

[/quote]How many times do I have to say I'm not Pro Elf?And I think you're confusing Orlais with the Dales because the Orlesian Empire is the one with a history of ruthless expasion and possibly was the one who instigated things with the Dales.
[/quote]

And the dalish are still the ones who took red crossing and montsimmard. Histroy says this, everyone knows this, except the dalish who have glossed over that part of their histroy as "racist humans" being racist.

[/quote]But we don't know what actually provoked them into doing that.Until we get context from multiple sources then it's dumb to simply say one side was completely innocent while the other started it.

[MisterJB]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Fighting darkspawn has become something ingrained into dwarven society, they even have an entire military force dedicated to it, the legion of the dead. That doesn't really speak of a people who get rest, but who are constantly beseiged but have found a way to hold their ground.

Members of the Legion of the Dead will tell you how a Blight on the surface means a break for them. While I don't think we should take their words literally and expect to see them catching a tan it seems obvious that, during a Blight, the Darkspawn activity in the Deep Roads diminishes greatly (this is supported by a large numbers of dwarves wondering where the Darkspawn had gone in DAO) much like what occurs in the surface in the absence of a Blight.

[Senya]

cjones91 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture and making them live in squalor where everyone can rape their women and get away with it.

cjones91 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.

Awkward.

Different contexts for vastly different scenarios.

Nope.

Post 1: I think people shouldn't invade other countries just because they feel they have been wrongued.
Post 2: I think the humans deserve to be invaded because the elves feel they have been wrongued.

Nice try but that post was me saying that the elves have a justifcation for taking back the Dales because they were treated like crap for centuries.The elves have a actual reason for doing the things they are doing,unlike the humans who felt that the elves did'nt do enough to help them in the Second Blight.

Seems like someone's been listening to one too many of sarel's fairytales. The dalish began to expand after the second blight by taking the town of red crossing, than Montsimmard, than set their sights on Val Royeaux. It could be understandable why they did it, seeing as how tensions between the two sides had been mounting, but the dalish never the less began a campaign of expansion even if to try and make some form of point that the orlesians decided to opposed. Originally it was just the dales vs orlesians, but when the other nations saw their ally from the second blight being threatened by the ****s who sat by and did nothing against the darkspawn, they decided to help their ally and the dalish lost.

They are the losers of a war they started, and they are paying the price. Using your logic, tevinter has every right to invade thedas and take over agian, since they rightly shed their blood winning and defending those territories in the first place only for a cult to rise up and take it all away.

How many times do I have to say I'm not Pro Elf?And I think you're confusing Orlais with the Dales because the Orlesian Empire is the one with a history of ruthless expasion and possibly was the one who instigated things with the Dales.

Actually, it depends on who you ask. The humans or the Dalish. The only thing that is clear is that the Dalish were winning the first part of the war and besieged Val Royeaux. That and there were tensions between Orlais and an increasingly humanphobic Dales as the elves refused to have anything to do with (any) humans through either trade or diplomacy.

[LobselVith8]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Seems like someone's been listening to one too many of sarel's fairytales. The dalish began to expand after the second blight by taking the town of red crossing, than Montsimmard, than set their sights on Val Royeaux. It could be understandable why they did it, seeing as how tensions between the two sides had been mounting, but the dalish never the less began a campaign of expansion even if to try and make some form of point that the orlesians decided to opposed. Originally it was just the dales vs orlesians, but when the other nations saw their ally from the second blight being threatened by the ****s who sat by and did nothing against the darkspawn, they decided to help their ally and the dalish lost.

The elven Warden and Dalish history claim the war started when the Dales was invaded by templars. Claiming the Dales was expansionist is a bit ludicrous when no historian makes that claim.

Darth Brotarian wrote...

They are the losers of a war they started, and they are paying the price. Using your logic, tevinter has every right to invade thedas and take over agian, since they rightly shed their blood winning and defending those territories in the first place only for a cult to rise up and take it all away. 

I don't think it's the same when reclaiming the kingdom of the Dales can give the elves the only sanctuary in all of Thedas for them to be safe from purges, templars, intolerant Andrastian humans, and provide the elves with a homeland where they have religious freedom.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
First off it was one human city and I highly doubt the humans would've done things differently if the roles were reversed and the elves were being attacked by darkspawn.

Emperor Drakon single handedly saved the Anderfels; and didn't occupy it; plus his armies fought in Tevinter, Orlais and the Free Marches. That city the elves abandoned? Drakon saved it.
So, yes. While the Second Blight was going on, it was the EVIL orlesians that were fighting all over the continent to save it while the pure, paragon elves watched.

Also you are leaving out several details that could have led up to the sacking of Val Royeaux.

But, did you not say:
"You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture"

Val-Royeaux is the center of orlesian culture and the Chantry is one of the pillar of human culture in general. The elves tried to destroy because they felt they were wronged by humans. Did that suddenly become acceptable?

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 octobre 2013 - 11:02 .

[Senya]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Seems like someone's been listening to one too many of sarel's fairytales. The dalish began to expand after the second blight by taking the town of red crossing, than Montsimmard, than set their sights on Val Royeaux. It could be understandable why they did it, seeing as how tensions between the two sides had been mounting, but the dalish never the less began a campaign of expansion even if to try and make some form of point that the orlesians decided to opposed. Originally it was just the dales vs orlesians, but when the other nations saw their ally from the second blight being threatened by the ****s who sat by and did nothing against the darkspawn, they decided to help their ally and the dalish lost.

The elven Warden and Dalish history claim the war started when the Dales was invaded by templars. Claiming the Dales was expansionist is a bit ludicrous when no historian makes that claim.

Actually, human historians make that claim or at least imply it. The Dalish don't, of course. But that's only natural in both cases.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 18 octobre 2013 - 11:01 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

What happened to the elves isn't a perceived slight.....it actually happened.They were stripped of their homes and culture, while most were forced to live in slums where literally anyone can walk in and do whatever they want to the elves with no consequences. 

And the elves also stood aside while darkspawn took human cities. The elves also sacked many human cities, Val-Royeaux included. All of these things actually happened.

You mean the elves didn't aid an expansionist empire that threatened their life and religious freedom.

And the Dales fought an enemy they claim invaded their kingdom, and started a war.

MisterJB wrote...

So, again, it's wrong for countries to invade others because of sligths, except if you agree with them. And you, of course are the sole judge of what justifies a war and what doesn't. 

There's a difference between conquering nations to expand your empire, and retaliating against an enemy that invaded your sovereign nation.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
First off it was one human city and I highly doubt the humans would've done things differently if the roles were reversed and the elves were being attacked by darkspawn.

Emperor Drakon single handedly saved the Anderfels; and didn't occupy it; plus his armies fought in Tevinter, Orlais and the Free Marches. That city the elves abandoned? Drakon saved it.
So, yes. While the Second Blight was going on, it was the EVIL orlesians that were fighting all over the continent to save it while the pure, paragon elves watched.

Also you are leaving out several details that could have led up to the sacking of Val Royeaux.

But, did you not say:
"You are basically saying it's okay to invade other countries if you feel they have wronged you in some way.To me that's a really sh*tty reason for destroying a race's culture"

Val-Royeaux is the center of orlesian culture and the Chantry is one of the pillar of human culture in general. The elves tried to destroy because they felt they were wronged by humans. Did that suddenly become acceptable?

I'm trying to be reasonable but it's very hard to do so when my posts are taken out of context......<_<

To answer your question:if that actually happened and considering we only have two biased versions of the events then no it's not acceptable.However if that was some reason the Dales attacked like continued incursions into their lands by people who did'nt take the hint and leave then it's a different matter.

[Cainhurst Crow]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Seems like someone's been listening to one too many of sarel's fairytales. The dalish began to expand after the second blight by taking the town of red crossing, than Montsimmard, than set their sights on Val Royeaux. It could be understandable why they did it, seeing as how tensions between the two sides had been mounting, but the dalish never the less began a campaign of expansion even if to try and make some form of point that the orlesians decided to opposed. Originally it was just the dales vs orlesians, but when the other nations saw their ally from the second blight being threatened by the ****s who sat by and did nothing against the darkspawn, they decided to help their ally and the dalish lost.

The elven Warden and Dalish history claim the war started when the Dales was invaded by templars. Claiming the Dales was expansionist is a bit ludicrous when no historian makes that claim.

Except all the historians of thedas claim the dalish attacking red crossing and took montsimmard, along with sacking val royeaux. Everyone but the dalish who don't even seem to aknowledge the incidents of their victories, only the part where they lost.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

They are the losers of a war they started, and they are paying the price. Using your logic, tevinter has every right to invade thedas and take over agian, since they rightly shed their blood winning and defending those territories in the first place only for a cult to rise up and take it all away. 

I don't think it's the same when reclaiming the kingdom of the Dales can give the elves the only sanctuary in all of Thedas for them to be safe from purges, templars, intolerant Andrastian humans, and provide the elves with a homeland where they have religious freedom.

What makes the dales any safer than any other part of thedas? If anything they're now all in one single location, which menas everyone knows where to find them and can coordinate to beseige them if they should find the need to.

[Cainhurst Crow]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

What happened to the elves isn't a perceived slight.....it actually happened.They were stripped of their homes and culture, while most were forced to live in slums where literally anyone can walk in and do whatever they want to the elves with no consequences. 

And the elves also stood aside while darkspawn took human cities. The elves also sacked many human cities, Val-Royeaux included. All of these things actually happened.

You mean the elves didn't aid an expansionist empire that threatened their life and religious freedom.

And the Dales fought an enemy they claim invaded their kingdom, and started a war.

Actually the elves convinently never state why they took human settlements like red crossing. They claim that because they expelled the tempalrs and missionaries did orlias declared war on them. All fine and good, but they took red crossing before orlais ever declared war on them in the first place.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 18 octobre 2013 - 11:10 .

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elven Warden and Dalish history claim the war started when the Dales was invaded by templars. Claiming the Dales was expansionist is a bit ludicrous when no historian makes that claim.

Actually, human historians make that claim or at least imply it. The Dalish don't, of course. But that's only natural in both cases. 

The Chantry version claims the attack on Red Crossing was unprovoked, not that the elves were an expansionist enemy. The Chantry condemned the elves for keeping humans out of their borders, while bringing up 'rumors' of human sacrifices (which seem to contradict each other).

[cjones91]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Seems like someone's been listening to one too many of sarel's fairytales. The dalish began to expand after the second blight by taking the town of red crossing, than Montsimmard, than set their sights on Val Royeaux. It could be understandable why they did it, seeing as how tensions between the two sides had been mounting, but the dalish never the less began a campaign of expansion even if to try and make some form of point that the orlesians decided to opposed. Originally it was just the dales vs orlesians, but when the other nations saw their ally from the second blight being threatened by the ****s who sat by and did nothing against the darkspawn, they decided to help their ally and the dalish lost.

The elven Warden and Dalish history claim the war started when the Dales was invaded by templars. Claiming the Dales was expansionist is a bit ludicrous when no historian makes that claim.

Except all the historians of thedas claim the dalish attacking red crossing and took montsimmard, along with sacking val royeaux. Everyone but the dalish who don't even seem to aknowledge the incidents of their victories, only the part where they lost.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

They are the losers of a war they started, and they are paying the price. Using your logic, tevinter has every right to invade thedas and take over agian, since they rightly shed their blood winning and defending those territories in the first place only for a cult to rise up and take it all away. 

I don't think it's the same when reclaiming the kingdom of the Dales can give the elves the only sanctuary in all of Thedas for them to be safe from purges, templars, intolerant Andrastian humans, and provide the elves with a homeland where they have religious freedom.

What makes the dales any safer than any other part of thedas? If anything they're now all in one single location, which menas everyone knows where to find them and can coordinate to beseige them if they should find the need to.

Except some of the historians were Chantry scholars and so you have to take into account biases when they write down their version of events.

[Cainhurst Crow]

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elven Warden and Dalish history claim the war started when the Dales was invaded by templars. Claiming the Dales was expansionist is a bit ludicrous when no historian makes that claim.

Actually, human historians make that claim or at least imply it. The Dalish don't, of course. But that's only natural in both cases. 

The Chantry version claims the attack on Red Crossing was unprovoked, not that the elves were an expansionist enemy. The Chantry condemned the elves for keeping humans out of their borders, while bringing up 'rumors' of human sacrifices (which seem to contradict each other).

It's not like the dalish have any explination as to why they took the lands anyway. In fact I'm willing to bet the dalish version doesn't even mention them taking any human land or them sacking val royeaux.

They whitewash their history harder than any other people, because they have the most to lose from looking wrong in their actions when it comes to dealing with, what was the term they used, filthy shemlens?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the elves didn't aid an expansionist empire that threatened their life and religious freedom.

They intentionally let an entire city full of innocent humans die at the hands of darkspawn during a Blight. Orlais was not their enemy at the time, and never explicitly tried to expand into their territory at the time, especially while Zazikel was terrorizing Thedas.

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a difference between conquering nations to expand your empire, and retaliating against an enemy that invaded your sovereign nation.

I still see no reason to think the templars were sent to the Dales before the war, even in the elven accounts. Do you think that if the elves did attack first, then the Fall of the Dales would be justified?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 18 octobre 2013 - 11:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the elves didn't aid an expansionist empire that threatened their life and religious freedom.

And the Dales fought an enemy they claim invaded their kingdom, and started a war. 

Actually the elves convinently never state why they took human settlements like red crossing. They claim that because they expelled the tempalrs and missionaries did orlias declared war on them. All fine and good, but they took red crossing before orlais ever declared war on them in the first place. 

Retaliation against an enemy that was invading their kingdom with templars, and fighting a war for victory - to make sure their enemy wasn't in a position to threaten them again. I'm not certain why you think this is some sort of unfathomable mystery. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

cjones91 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Seems like someone's been listening to one too many of sarel's fairytales. The dalish began to expand after the second blight by taking the town of red crossing, than Montsimmard, than set their sights on Val Royeaux. It could be understandable why they did it, seeing as how tensions between the two sides had been mounting, but the dalish never the less began a campaign of expansion even if to try and make some form of point that the orlesians decided to opposed. Originally it was just the dales vs orlesians, but when the other nations saw their ally from the second blight being threatened by the ****s who sat by and did nothing against the darkspawn, they decided to help their ally and the dalish lost.

The elven Warden and Dalish history claim the war started when the Dales was invaded by templars. Claiming the Dales was expansionist is a bit ludicrous when no historian makes that claim.

Except all the historians of thedas claim the dalish attacking red crossing and took montsimmard, along with sacking val royeaux. Everyone but the dalish who don't even seem to aknowledge the incidents of their victories, only the part where they lost.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

They are the losers of a war they started, and they are paying the price. Using your logic, tevinter has every right to invade thedas and take over agian, since they rightly shed their blood winning and defending those territories in the first place only for a cult to rise up and take it all away. 

I don't think it's the same when reclaiming the kingdom of the Dales can give the elves the only sanctuary in all of Thedas for them to be safe from purges, templars, intolerant Andrastian humans, and provide the elves with a homeland where they have religious freedom.

What makes the dales any safer than any other part of thedas? If anything they're now all in one single location, which menas everyone knows where to find them and can coordinate to beseige them if they should find the need to.

Except some of the historians were Chantry scholars and so you have to take into account biases when they write down their version of events.

And the dalish scholars somehow have no bias in regards to dalish histroy?

[cjones91]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the elves didn't aid an expansionist empire that threatened their life and religious freedom.

They intentionally let an entire city full of innocent humans die at the hands of darkspawn during a Blight. Orlais was not their enemy at the time, and never explicitly tried to expand into their territory at the time, especially while Zazikel was terrorizing Thedas.

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's a difference between conquering nations to expand your empire, and retaliating against an enemy that invaded your sovereign nation.

I still see no reason to think the templars were sent to the Dales before the war. Do you think that if the elves did attack first, then the Fall of the Dales would be justified?

Again do you think the humans would'nt have done the same thing if the elves were the ones being attacked by darkspawn?There are some sources that claim the templars were sent after the missionaries were forced to leave the Dales.

[cjones91]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Seems like someone's been listening to one too many of sarel's fairytales. The dalish began to expand after the second blight by taking the town of red crossing, than Montsimmard, than set their sights on Val Royeaux. It could be understandable why they did it, seeing as how tensions between the two sides had been mounting, but the dalish never the less began a campaign of expansion even if to try and make some form of point that the orlesians decided to opposed. Originally it was just the dales vs orlesians, but when the other nations saw their ally from the second blight being threatened by the ****s who sat by and did nothing against the darkspawn, they decided to help their ally and the dalish lost.

The elven Warden and Dalish history claim the war started when the Dales was invaded by templars. Claiming the Dales was expansionist is a bit ludicrous when no historian makes that claim.

Except all the historians of thedas claim the dalish attacking red crossing and took montsimmard, along with sacking val royeaux. Everyone but the dalish who don't even seem to aknowledge the incidents of their victories, only the part where they lost.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

They are the losers of a war they started, and they are paying the price. Using your logic, tevinter has every right to invade thedas and take over agian, since they rightly shed their blood winning and defending those territories in the first place only for a cult to rise up and take it all away. 

I don't think it's the same when reclaiming the kingdom of the Dales can give the elves the only sanctuary in all of Thedas for them to be safe from purges, templars, intolerant Andrastian humans, and provide the elves with a homeland where they have religious freedom.

What makes the dales any safer than any other part of thedas? If anything they're now all in one single location, which menas everyone knows where to find them and can coordinate to beseige them if they should find the need to.

Except some of the historians were Chantry scholars and so you have to take into account biases when they write down their version of events.

And the dalish scholars somehow have no bias in regards to dalish histroy?

Of course not,that's why I said wait until there are other sources from unbiased groups before throwing blame around.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Orlais helped other non Chantry lands during the Second Blight, so I don't see them ignoring the elves if they were attacked, even if the elves don't appreciate the rescue the way Drakon would have preferred like the Anders or Marchers did.

[Senya]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

What happened to the elves isn't a perceived slight.....it actually happened.They were stripped of their homes and culture, while most were forced to live in slums where literally anyone can walk in and do whatever they want to the elves with no consequences. 

And the elves also stood aside while darkspawn took human cities. The elves also sacked many human cities, Val-Royeaux included. All of these things actually happened.

You mean the elves didn't aid an expansionist empire that threatened their life and religious freedom.

And the Dales fought an enemy they claim invaded their kingdom, and started a war.

There is no recorded history of Orlais ever threatening the Dales prior to the Second Blight. Perhaps being expanionsist among other human kingdoms, yes. But there is nothing that says there was any Orlesian threat during that time. The Dales also refused to thelp:

The Anderfels, Tevinter (which might be justifiable if it was only them given their history with the elves up until the Second Blight), the Free Marches, and the Alamarri when the darkspawn poured into Ferelden. And, to behonest, if the Ferelden Valley and Orlais fell, that would have threatened the Dales too. The Dalish seemed to be betting on the humans beating the Darkspawn so they wouldn't have to.

In fact, Orlais became powerful through annexing grateful neighbors while the Dalish came off as those jerks that didn't help anyone.