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[cjones91]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Of course that's not an option the Dalish would ever take because it would require them to actually attempt civility with non-elves, and that just insane.

Because Andrastian humans treat elves - especially heathens - with civility?

No, but the Dalish don't have anything the Andrastians want, far as they know.  Civility is all about providing the right incentive, what can I get from being nice to you that I couldn't get quicker and easier from stabbing you in the face?

The last time the elves tried being civil it ended with a arl's son kidnapping several elven women so that he and his friends could rape them.

Well the Circle,Redcliffe,Lothering and supposedly Highever treat them well enough from what I've seen/heard.

In Redcliff and Lothering the elves are mostly poor and or servants.Highever is reported to not be a elf haven given what some elves in the Denerim Alienage are claiming.And since you could have sex with a elf who is in no position to refuse I'm willing to believe the elves there are only treated slightly better than everywhere else.

[DPSSOC]

cjones91 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
And people wonder why elves are suspicious of humans.Too be honest you reap what you sow and if treating a race like crap for centuries was a crime then a lot of humans in Thedas would be guilty as sin.

Pot meet Kettle.  Kettle, Pot.

Funny because I'm not really on one side or another.If the humans were treated like the elves were then I would be taking the same position right now.

You miss my point.  I was referring to the Dalish again not you.  Throughout their entire history the Dalish have never, correct me if I'm wrong, attempted to be friendly or even polite towards their human neighbours.  They have rejected all attempts at peaceful relations and either killed or threatened anyone who got too close.  Yes the humans of Thedas should be despised for their attitudes and treatment towards Elves, but the Dalish haven't exactly been holding to a gold standard either.

[Shadow Fox]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Of course that's not an option the Dalish would ever take because it would require them to actually attempt civility with non-elves, and that just insane.

Because Andrastian humans treat elves - especially heathens - with civility?

Because the Dalish treat non-Dalish with such civility....  Wardens and Hawkes as exceptions because plot armor.

Even then most act with barely concealed hostility until after you've helped them.

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Of course that's not an option the Dalish would ever take because it would require them to actually attempt civility with non-elves, and that just insane.

Because Andrastian humans treat elves - especially heathens - with civility?

Because the Dalish treat non-Dalish with such civility....  Wardens and Hawkes as exceptions because plot armor.

That's because several clans had run ins with humans that ended with them being run off the land like the Sabrae clan.

[Xilizhra]

In Redcliff and Lothering the elves are mostly poor and or servants.Highever is reported to not be a elf haven given what some elves in the Denerim Alienage are claiming.And since you could have sex with a elf who is in no position to refuse I'm willing to believe the elves there are only treated slightly better than everywhere else.

In the HN's defense, there doesn't seem to be any indication that Iona is unwilling... especially since, at least as a female PC, Iona actually seems to open things, to some extent, with the "you are as pretty as your mother describes" line.

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Capitulating to humanity isn't a route I'm interested in seeing for the People. A Dalish Inquisitor using the organization to help the Elvhen while dealing with the veil tears interests me more.

Very well, enjoy your continued cycle of violence, oppression, and death. 

If it leads to an independent Dales where the People can have their culture and religious freedom, I think it'll be worth the trials and tribulations for a Dalish Inquisitor.

[cjones91]

Xilizhra wrote...

In Redcliff and Lothering the elves are mostly poor and or servants.Highever is reported to not be a elf haven given what some elves in the Denerim Alienage are claiming.And since you could have sex with a elf who is in no position to refuse I'm willing to believe the elves there are only treated slightly better than everywhere else.

In the HN's defense, there doesn't seem to be any indication that Iona is unwilling... especially since, at least as a female PC, Iona actually seems to open things, to some extent, with the "you are as pretty as your mother describes" line.

Maybe,but I highly doubt Iona would be able to turn the HN down without being punished in some way.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Well the Circle,Redcliffe,Lothering and supposedly Highever treat them well enough from what I've seen/heard.

Some elves face racism in the Circle of Magi, as the protagonist can explain to Duncan; there's only one elf (an outsider) in Redcliffe, and there's some surprise at an elven Warden in the village; and elves live in outhouses and barns in Lothering.

[Xilizhra]

cjones91 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In Redcliff and Lothering the elves are mostly poor and or servants.Highever is reported to not be a elf haven given what some elves in the Denerim Alienage are claiming.And since you could have sex with a elf who is in no position to refuse I'm willing to believe the elves there are only treated slightly better than everywhere else.

In the HN's defense, there doesn't seem to be any indication that Iona is unwilling... especially since, at least as a female PC, Iona actually seems to open things, to some extent, with the "you are as pretty as your mother describes" line.

Maybe,but I highly doubt Iona would be able to turn the HN down without being punished in some way.

That would depend wholly on whether you wanted to roleplay a rapist or not. Myself, I don't.

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because Andrastian humans treat elves - especially heathens - with civility?

Because the Dalish treat non-Dalish with such civility....  Wardens and Hawkes as exceptions because plot armor.

Plot armor? Like the Dalish who signed a treaty to aid the Grey Wardens during the Blight? The Dalish who raised Aveline the Knight? The Dalish who protect Feynriel from the templars, despite him technically being human? Hardly plot armor.

[Shadow Fox]

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Of course that's not an option the Dalish would ever take because it would require them to actually attempt civility with non-elves, and that just insane.

Because Andrastian humans treat elves - especially heathens - with civility?

No, but the Dalish don't have anything the Andrastians want, far as they know.  Civility is all about providing the right incentive, what can I get from being nice to you that I couldn't get quicker and easier from stabbing you in the face?

The last time the elves tried being civil it ended with a arl's son kidnapping several elven women so that he and his friends could rape them.

Well the Circle,Redcliffe,Lothering and supposedly Highever treat them well enough from what I've seen/heard.

In Redcliff and Lothering the elves are mostly poor and or servants.Highever is reported to not be a elf haven given what some elves in the Denerim Alienage are claiming.And since you could have sex with a elf who is in no position to refuse I'm willing to believe the elves there are only treated slightly better than everywhere else.

So were the humans there,really I've heard the opposite?,Hard to tell since she was reciprocative to Cousland's advances and  since she was a Lady in Waiting she might've been able to.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In Redcliff and Lothering the elves are mostly poor and or servants.Highever is reported to not be a elf haven given what some elves in the Denerim Alienage are claiming.And since you could have sex with a elf who is in no position to refuse I'm willing to believe the elves there are only treated slightly better than everywhere else.

In the HN's defense, there doesn't seem to be any indication that Iona is unwilling... especially since, at least as a female PC, Iona actually seems to open things, to some extent, with the "you are as pretty as your mother describes" line.

Maybe,but I highly doubt Iona would be able to turn the HN down without being punished in some way.

That would depend wholly on whether you wanted to roleplay a rapist or not. Myself, I don't.

And whether or not the parents approved of rape. But a complicating issue would be whether or not Iona is aware that saying no is an option. (I think the same might be true of the lesser noble squiring for Bryce.)

[Shadow Fox]

cjones91 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Of course that's not an option the Dalish would ever take because it would require them to actually attempt civility with non-elves, and that just insane.

Because Andrastian humans treat elves - especially heathens - with civility?

Because the Dalish treat non-Dalish with such civility....  Wardens and Hawkes as exceptions because plot armor.

That's because several clans had run ins with humans that ended with them being run off the land like the Sabrae clan.

And Elven and Dwarven Wardens?

[Xilizhra]

And whether or not the parents approved of rape. But a complicating issue would be whether or not Iona is aware that saying no is an option. (I think the same might be true of the lesser noble squiring for Bryce.)

It's true that, were I given the dialogue choice, I'd have made "saying no is an option" as clear as possible, and it's a somewhat regrettable oversight that I didn't have said choice. I'll headcanon it in as something that happened before sex instead.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

And whether or not the parents approved of rape. But a complicating issue would be whether or not Iona is aware that saying no is an option. (I think the same might be true of the lesser noble squiring for Bryce.)

It's true that, were I given the dialogue choice, I'd have made "saying no is an option" as clear as possible, and it's a somewhat regrettable oversight that I didn't have said choice. I'll headcanon it in as something that happened before sex instead.

Or it might be that they're trying to make this whole thing subtly sinister. (Which is a kind of creepy thought.)

[cjones91]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Of course that's not an option the Dalish would ever take because it would require them to actually attempt civility with non-elves, and that just insane.

Because Andrastian humans treat elves - especially heathens - with civility?

Because the Dalish treat non-Dalish with such civility....  Wardens and Hawkes as exceptions because plot armor.

That's because several clans had run ins with humans that ended with them being run off the land like the Sabrae clan.

And Elven and Dwarven Wardens?

I did'nt say the Dalish were'nt racist but one has to look at their history with humans to understand why they may not be so peachy about them.

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And whether or not the parents approved of rape. But a complicating issue would be whether or not Iona is aware that saying no is an option. (I think the same might be true of the lesser noble squiring for Bryce.)

It's true that, were I given the dialogue choice, I'd have made "saying no is an option" as clear as possible, and it's a somewhat regrettable oversight that I didn't have said choice. I'll headcanon it in as something that happened before sex instead.

Or it might be that they're trying to make this whole thing subtly sinister. (Which is a kind of creepy thought.)

In which case I'll resent the hell out of whoever made this. I have no major love for the HN origin (Iona is literally the only factor I found interesting about it, actually, as I think a romance between them has major potential), but it's a remarkably dickish move to shove your roleplaying options that far in the direction of evil.

[addiction21]

LobselVith8 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because Andrastian humans treat elves - especially heathens - with civility?

Because the Dalish treat non-Dalish with such civility....  Wardens and Hawkes as exceptions because plot armor.

Plot armor? Like the Dalish who signed a treaty to aid the Grey Wardens during the Blight?

The same Dalish with a Keeper extending his life thru a blood curse that has caused irreparable harm to not just the humans he cursed but his own clan? Great example.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Plot armor?  The Dalish who raised Aveline the Knight?

Exceptional circumstances change nothing. Just like that one clan fighting in the ANderfalls does not change THE FACT the Elves in the Dales did nothing.

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish who protect Feynriel from the templars, despite him technically being human? Hardly plot armor.

Only at the word of a human that had been shown to be usefull and sent there by Flemeth

But tell me again why its okay for your chosen groups to murder as they feel like and not okay for anyone else?

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Well the Circle,Redcliffe,Lothering and supposedly Highever treat them well enough from what I've seen/heard.

Some elves face racism in the Circle of Magi, as the protagonist can explain to Duncan; there's only one elf (an outsider) in Redcliffe, and there's some surprise at an elven Warden in the village; and elves live in outhouses and barns in Lothering.

And the Warden can be confused at the notion that being an elf would cause difficulties in the Circle so that's a varible and we have an elf and human chatting like friends about Jowan in the Origin and atleast 2 Elven First Enchanters,There's surprise at a Dwarven and Mage Warden too,really?

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Capitulating to humanity isn't a route I'm interested in seeing for the People. A Dalish Inquisitor using the organization to help the Elvhen while dealing with the veil tears interests me more.

Very well, enjoy your continued cycle of violence, oppression, and death. 

If it leads to an independent Dales where the People can have their culture and religious freedom, I think it'll be worth the trials and tribulations for a Dalish Inquisitor.

[facepalm] My point is that let's say you do get an independent Dales, it won't last, over time resentment will build in those people forced to relocate to accommodate it, or the Dalish attitude will start to grate again, and eventually they'll be back and it'll all start over again.

Like I said if the Dalish want humans to be civil they're going to have to find an incentive.  Something that makes being nice to them more beneficial than just attacking them and taking it.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 19 octobre 2013 - 02:57 .

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Or it might be that they're trying to make this whole thing subtly sinister. (Which is a kind of creepy thought.)

In which case I'll resent the hell out of whoever made this. I have no major love for the HN origin (Iona is literally the only factor I found interesting about it, actually, as I think a romance between them has major potential), but it's a remarkably dickish move to shove your roleplaying options that far in the direction of evil. 

I remember the Fenris thread bringing this quest up. Wasn't that the developers point with Nan and the elves, to put the player on the other side of racism that the player deals with in the Elven Origin?

[Xilizhra]

Like I said if the Dalish want humans to be civil they're going to have to find an incentive. Something that makes being nice to them more beneficial than just attacking them and taking it.

Monopolize the lyrium trade with the Chantry weakened and the Circles disintegrated? What else would humans be willing to buy from elves?

I remember the Fenris thread bringing this quest up. Wasn't that the
developers point with Nan and the elves, to put the player on the other
side of racism that the player deals with in the Elven Origin?

If so, it was a tremendously ****ty point. It's one thing to be in an environment where racism is accepted, but forcing it on one's PC as a character trait is just wrong. Thankfully, this was not an issue with Hawke.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 octobre 2013 - 03:00 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I never noticed that either of them had any extra content until after I'd completed the Origin but I don't think it was considered a big deal considering neither Iona nor her male counterpart show even the slightest hint of unwillingness or discomfort.

[Shadow Fox]

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Of course that's not an option the Dalish would ever take because it would require them to actually attempt civility with non-elves, and that just insane.

Because Andrastian humans treat elves - especially heathens - with civility?

Because the Dalish treat non-Dalish with such civility....  Wardens and Hawkes as exceptions because plot armor.

That's because several clans had run ins with humans that ended with them being run off the land like the Sabrae clan.

And Elven and Dwarven Wardens?

I did'nt say the Dalish were'nt racist but one has to look at their history with humans to understand why they may not be so peachy about them.

If they were simply wary and passive aggresive towards humans because of their history then fine but Tamlen is rather eager to murder three for simply wandering near their camp*granted if spared they act like dicks too*and the Dalish are arrogant hostile dicks to other Elves and Dwarves

[Xilizhra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I never noticed that either of them had any extra content until after I'd completed the Origin but I don't think it was considered a big deal considering neither Iona nor her male counterpart show even the slightest hint of unwillingness or discomfort.

Well, one could read something into Iona's apparent shyness, so I can see where the concern comes from. Unfortunately. Damn whoever tried to write racism in as automatic.