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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

HiroVoid wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Because you favor retribution over rehabilitation? How Dalish of you.

Uh, recruiting an assassin who just tried to kill you (after being hired to kill you) is a bit of a terrible idea.  Especially if it's just you and Alistair.  You, who may have never heard of the Crows at all before, only has his word to go on.  Loghain also has Alistair being pratty over it, and some people seem to value his opinion for whatever reason.

Plus, Zevran can opt to try and kill you with his friend later on, so he basically was lying about how he's a target just because he failed to kill you the first time.  If he wasn't so interested in leaving the crows in the first place, he could easily have just killed everyone in their sleep or through any other number of methods.

Edit: Is there anyone who agrees with taking Zevran in the party members?  Maybe Leliana?

Sorry for being unclear: I was mostly talking about Loghain. Zevran? I agree that except for metagame, that's a horrible freaking idea. Loghain, on the other hand, is pretty broken by this point and not trained to kill subtly. There's still an argument for not trusting him, but it's a good deal safer to do so.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 octobre 2013 - 04:28 .

[LobselVith8]

HiroVoid wrote...

Plus, Zevran can opt to try and kill you with his friend later on, so he basically was lying about how he's a target just because he failed to kill you the first time.  If he wasn't so interested in leaving the crows in the first place, he could easily have just killed everyone in their sleep or through any other number of methods.

Zevran is a target (as Master Ignacio suggests in their confrontation), but he betrays you in that scenario by siding with Taliesen, who has known Zevran for a long time.

HiroVoid wrote...

Edit: Is there anyone who agrees with taking Zevran in the party members?  Maybe Leliana? 

Leliana approves; she seems familiar with the Antivan Crows, but I don't recall getting approval for sparing and recruiting Zevran with anyone else, as Alistair, Morrigan, and Oghren disapprove.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 octobre 2013 - 04:35 .

[Former_Fiend]

HiroVoid wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Because you favor retribution over rehabilitation? How Dalish of you.

Uh, recruiting an assassin who just tried to kill you (after being hired to kill you) is a bit of a terrible idea.  Especially if it's just you and Alistair.  You, who may have never heard of the Crows at all before, only has his word to go on.  Loghain also has Alistair being pratty over it, and some people seem to value his opinion for whatever reason.

Plus, Zevran can opt to try and kill you with his friend later on, so he basically was lying about how he's a target just because he failed to kill you the first time.  If he wasn't so interested in leaving the crows in the first place, he could easily have just killed everyone in their sleep or through any other number of methods.

Edit: Is there anyone who agrees with taking Zevran in the party members?  Maybe Leliana?

Leliana's the only one who approves, though Shale, Sten, and Wynne don't seem to care either way.

[BlueMagitek]

You don't know if Zevran is being truthful or lying when you encounter him; it's entirely possible to avoid Denerim for the majority of your adventure, or just the Crows sidequest, especially if your Warden isn't a kill happy crazy-cray. 

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Sorry for being unclear: I was mostly talking about Loghain. Zevran? I agree that except for metagame, that's a horrible freaking idea. Loghain, on the other hand, is pretty broken by this point and not trained to kill subtly. There's still an argument for not trusting him, but it's a good deal safer to do so.

Which was answered by my other point.  The person that has been your ally since the beginning of your career as a Grey Warden is adamantly against it and considers it to be getting stabbed in the back.  He isn't being reasonable over it, so if your Warden values Alistair's opinion (or wants Anora on the throne without him turning into a drunk) then you're kind of screwed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

You don't know if Zevran is being truthful or lying when you encounter him; it's entirely possible to avoid Denerim for the majority of your adventure, or just the Crows sidequest, especially if your Warden isn't a kill happy crazy-cray. 

Actually, I think it only triggers during the Landsmeet arc anyway, in order to give you time to make him want to stay. (And because that's a crap-ton of archers, of course.)

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Sorry for being unclear: I was mostly talking about Loghain. Zevran? I agree that except for metagame, that's a horrible freaking idea. Loghain, on the other hand, is pretty broken by this point and not trained to kill subtly. There's still an argument for not trusting him, but it's a good deal safer to do so.

Which was answered by my other point.  The person that has been your ally since the beginning of your career as a Grey Warden is adamantly against it and considers it to be getting stabbed in the back.  He isn't being reasonable over it, so if your Warden values Alistair's opinion (or wants Anora on the throne without him turning into a drunk) then you're kind of screwed.

I figure the best option is probably the two of them on the throne together, and it's a poor idea to put the king on the front-lines anyway. Besides, the death penalty isn't my thing. I agree that its justified if there's no other way to make an enemy or villain less dangerous, but that's not necessarily the case with Loghain.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 octobre 2013 - 04:59 .

[BlueMagitek]

The King is one of 3 or 4 people that can end the Blight though.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The King is one of 3 or 4 people that can end the Blight though.

Yes, but you can't field all four of the people who could potentially do it anyway. You have to choose between fielding the king, or the failed leader who's life is forfeit by that country's law. I don't like the death penalty, but its nonetheless obvious which of the two is less valuable.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 octobre 2013 - 05:28 .

[BlueMagitek]

Except that not every scenario has Alistair as king. So if Alistair is an unhardened, unprepared person who just wants to be a Grey Warden and won't accept Loghain into your organization, do you stab Alistair in the back or do you let him get his way?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Except that not every scenario has Alistair as king. So if Alistair is an unhardened, unprepared person who just wants to be a Grey Warden and won't accept Loghain into your organization, do you stab Alistair in the back or do you let him get his way?

In that scenario, I suppose it's safer to have Alistair as the spare Warden. Though the complicating factor is that you can choose Loghain over Alistair without Alistair losing his head, but not the converse.

[fchopin]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Except that not every scenario has Alistair as king. So if Alistair is an unhardened, unprepared person who just wants to be a Grey Warden and won't accept Loghain into your organization, do you stab Alistair in the back or do you let him get his way?

Loghain dies in all my games whatever Alistair becomes.
I don't let traitors that let there friends die survive if i have any say in the story.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

fchopin wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Except that not every scenario has Alistair as king. So if Alistair is an unhardened, unprepared person who just wants to be a Grey Warden and won't accept Loghain into your organization, do you stab Alistair in the back or do you let him get his way?

Loghain dies in all my games whatever Alistair becomes.
I don't let traitors that let there friends die survive if i have any say in the story.

Because you favor retribution over rehabilitation. Which is fine, I suppose. You can make a case that either is justice. It's just not the way I roll. (Edit: Though you'd be surprised how many of my characters nonetheless have roleplay reasons to kill him.)

(Edit2: Also, while there are credible reasons to kill Loghain, you are massively oversimplifying the Ostagar withdrawal decision.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 octobre 2013 - 05:59 .

[Former_Fiend]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Except that not every scenario has Alistair as king. So if Alistair is an unhardened, unprepared person who just wants to be a Grey Warden and won't accept Loghain into your organization, do you stab Alistair in the back or do you let him get his way?

It's not a stab in the back. Alistair spit in the face of the warden as a person and the wardens as an organization when he threatened to walk if he didn't get his personal vengeance. He wants to throw away that friendship because he doesn't understand what being a grey warden means, he can wallow in the Hanged Man for all I care.

[Wulfram]

Loghain, huh? I guess it was inevitable that this thread would get there eventually.

[In Exile]

Former_Fiend wrote...
It's not a stab in the back. Alistair spit in the face of the warden as a person and the wardens as an organization when he threatened to walk if he didn't get his personal vengeance. He wants to throw away that friendship because he doesn't understand what being a grey warden means, he can wallow in the Hanged Man for all I care.

Given that the person he's demanding the execution of:

(i) Plotted to have every single Warden in Ferelden die
(ii) Blamed the order for regicide
(iii) Doggedly pursued and attempted to kill the last 2 remaning GWs 

I can't see how Alistair is actually betraying the GWs. Even if we assume - despite all the evidence to the contrary - that Loghain would actually be a wortwhile asset,  it's still unacceptable for an order to accept into its ranks a person who just spent a year doing everything possible to dismantle it. 

Loghain took a far bigger crap on the Warden's as an organization. 

[Former_Fiend]

In Exile wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...
It's not a stab in the back. Alistair spit in the face of the warden as a person and the wardens as an organization when he threatened to walk if he didn't get his personal vengeance. He wants to throw away that friendship because he doesn't understand what being a grey warden means, he can wallow in the Hanged Man for all I care.

Given that the person he's demanding the execution of:

(i) Plotted to have every single Warden in Ferelden die
(ii) Blamed the order for regicide
(iii) Doggedly pursued and attempted to kill the last 2 remaning GWs 

I can't see how Alistair is actually betraying the GWs. Even if we assume - despite all the evidence to the contrary - that Loghain would actually be a wortwhile asset,  it's still unacceptable for an order to accept into its ranks a person who just spent a year doing everything possible to dismantle it. 

Loghain took a far bigger crap on the Warden's as an organization. 

And yet there is a senior Warden- one who knew Duncan and the others that died at Ostagar far better than Alistair did- right there arguing for Loghain's recruitment.

Alistair's duty as a warden is to stop the blight by whatever means necessary. Recruiting Loghain can help do that. Alistair refuses out of a desire for revenge. He abandons his duty, he abandons Ferelden, because the man he hates is going to die by the taint and not by the sword.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

DKJaigen wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

After the Fourth Blight the nations of Thedas didn't even deal with the darkspawn in the Anderfels.

you can partially blame the chantry for that. as long they keep shouting that the darkspawn are a punishment from the maker a lot of people are simply going to ignore the darkspawn

What? That's not true. Nobody likes keeping the darkspawn around. They didn't do anything about the Anderfels because it was so remote so the other nations could afford not to care.

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
If it leads to an independent Dales where the People can have their culture and religious freedom, I think it'll be worth the trials and tribulations for a Dalish Inquisitor.

[facepalm] My point is that let's say you do get an independent Dales, it won't last, over time resentment will build in those people forced to relocate to accommodate it, or the Dalish attitude will start to grate again, and eventually they'll be back and it'll all start over again.

The existence of the Inquisition could change that with a Dalish Inquisitor at the helm.

Your Inquisitor won't live forever, and any other Dalish leading the Inquisition is only going to accelerate the violence.  The Dalish need more than an independent organization trying to make things better for them, they need an attitude adjustment.  The Dalish philosophy is not conducive to peaceful co-existence they're going to have problems until they leave the continent or kill EVERYONE ELSE.

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Like I said if the Dalish want humans to be civil they're going to have to find an incentive.  Something that makes being nice to them more beneficial than just attacking them and taking it. 

I doubt that will be possible when Andrastians will want the Dalish to convert, and that isn't likely to transpire.

Yes they will want that, so what?  As long as the Dalish maintain their incentive, keep giving them reasons not to fight them, it will be limited to social pressure and if their society can't survive that we should let it die.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Former_Fiend wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Except that not every scenario has Alistair as king. So if Alistair is an unhardened, unprepared person who just wants to be a Grey Warden and won't accept Loghain into your organization, do you stab Alistair in the back or do you let him get his way?

It's not a stab in the back. Alistair spit in the face of the warden as a person and the wardens as an organization when he threatened to walk if he didn't get his personal vengeance. He wants to throw away that friendship because he doesn't understand what being a grey warden means, he can wallow in the Hanged Man for all I care.

But is IS a stab in the back. You can't talk of betrayl as one one person has dibs on defining it.
Yes, you ARE betrying Alistair. You can think it irrelevant or not important, but it's still betrayl.


Now Loghain? I consider him to big of a liability to let him alive. Rehabilitation is an option when there is no danger...and Loghian still has infulence and suporters, and no guarantee that he won't try to kill you again (other than his word...which is worth jack s*** at this point)

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote..

The existence of the Inquisition could change that with a Dalish Inquisitor at the helm.

Your Inquisitor won't live forever, and any other Dalish leading the Inquisition is only going to accelerate the violence.  The Dalish need more than an independent organization trying to make things better for them, they need an attitude adjustment.  The Dalish philosophy is not conducive to peaceful co-existence they're going to have problems until they leave the continent or kill EVERYONE ELSE. 

Andrastian society isn't conducive to other cultures when they condemn them as heathens and think they need to convert everyone to their religion. Capitulating to humanity doesn't interest me as an option.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I doubt that will be possible when Andrastians will want the Dalish to convert, and that isn't likely to transpire.

Yes they will want that, so what?  As long as the Dalish maintain their incentive, keep giving them reasons not to fight them, it will be limited to social pressure and if their society can't survive that we should let it die.

I don't subscribe to your hypothesis when history has proven otherwise. Let's simply agree to disagree?

[Shadow Fox]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Because you favor retribution over rehabilitation? How Dalish of you.

Uh, recruiting an assassin who just tried to kill you (after being hired to kill you) is a bit of a terrible idea.  Especially if it's just you and Alistair.  You, who may have never heard of the Crows at all before, only has his word to go on.  Loghain also has Alistair being pratty over it, and some people seem to value his opinion for whatever reason.

Well with Loghain  for me outside of personal reasons it's two fold: On one hand I consider killing him to be more merciful than condemning him to be a Warden and also I can't trust him.

[Shadow Fox]

Former_Fiend wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...
It's not a stab in the back. Alistair spit in the face of the warden as a person and the wardens as an organization when he threatened to walk if he didn't get his personal vengeance. He wants to throw away that friendship because he doesn't understand what being a grey warden means, he can wallow in the Hanged Man for all I care.

Given that the person he's demanding the execution of:

(i) Plotted to have every single Warden in Ferelden die
(ii) Blamed the order for regicide
(iii) Doggedly pursued and attempted to kill the last 2 remaning GWs 

I can't see how Alistair is actually betraying the GWs. Even if we assume - despite all the evidence to the contrary - that Loghain would actually be a wortwhile asset,  it's still unacceptable for an order to accept into its ranks a person who just spent a year doing everything possible to dismantle it. 

Loghain took a far bigger crap on the Warden's as an organization. 

And yet there is a senior Warden- one who knew Duncan and the others that died at Ostagar far better than Alistair did- right there arguing for Loghain's recruitment.

Alistair's duty as a warden is to stop the blight by whatever means necessary. Recruiting Loghain can help do that. Alistair refuses out of a desire for revenge. He abandons his duty, he abandons Ferelden, because the man he hates is going to die by the taint and not by the sword.

Riordan only wants Loghain as extra insurance against the Archdemon incase he,Alistair or the Warden die before they can kill it.

Alistair sees joining the Wardens as an honor not a death sentence plus Loghain killed his brother and surrogate family and demonized his order and tried to kill him and his lover/best friend/fellow Warden would you like it if he tried to recruite Howe or Bhelen even knowing what they did to you?

[Former_Fiend]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Except that not every scenario has Alistair as king. So if Alistair is an unhardened, unprepared person who just wants to be a Grey Warden and won't accept Loghain into your organization, do you stab Alistair in the back or do you let him get his way?

It's not a stab in the back. Alistair spit in the face of the warden as a person and the wardens as an organization when he threatened to walk if he didn't get his personal vengeance. He wants to throw away that friendship because he doesn't understand what being a grey warden means, he can wallow in the Hanged Man for all I care.

But is IS a stab in the back. You can't talk of betrayl as one one person has dibs on defining it.
Yes, you ARE betrying Alistair. You can think it irrelevant or not important, but it's still betrayl.


Now Loghain? I consider him to big of a liability to let him alive. Rehabilitation is an option when there is no danger...and Loghian still has infulence and suporters, and no guarantee that he won't try to kill you again (other than his word...which is worth jack s*** at this point)

I never told Alistair we'd kill Loghain. I told him we'd stop the blight. I fail to see how not doing something I never told him I'd do is a betrayal.

I do see him walking away from his duty as a grey warden a betrayal after all the sh*t he gave me about it. I do see him walking away from me after I went out of my way to save Aemon's family because he urged me to a betrayal. I see him asking me to kill a defenseless man who's just yeilded in single combat without being tried or sentenced for treason a betrayal.

And yes, you have every reason to think Loghain may well betray you once he joins you. And you know what the funny thing is? He doesn't. Not once. He makes no attempt on your life, he follows your commands without question, and he does his duty. He serves with honor and distinction. He even goes to Orlais to start recruiting their without much of a complaint. 

I don't try and justify or excuse anything Loghain did. And despite my issues with him, I don't condem Alistair for his decision. I understand it. It's human. Alistair is objectively a better person than Loghain. But he doesn't understand what it means to be a warden, and he doesn't have what it takes to be a warden. Loghain, ironically enough, does.

[Former_Fiend]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...
It's not a stab in the back. Alistair spit in the face of the warden as a person and the wardens as an organization when he threatened to walk if he didn't get his personal vengeance. He wants to throw away that friendship because he doesn't understand what being a grey warden means, he can wallow in the Hanged Man for all I care.

Given that the person he's demanding the execution of:

(i) Plotted to have every single Warden in Ferelden die
(ii) Blamed the order for regicide
(iii) Doggedly pursued and attempted to kill the last 2 remaning GWs 

I can't see how Alistair is actually betraying the GWs. Even if we assume - despite all the evidence to the contrary - that Loghain would actually be a wortwhile asset,  it's still unacceptable for an order to accept into its ranks a person who just spent a year doing everything possible to dismantle it. 

Loghain took a far bigger crap on the Warden's as an organization. 

And yet there is a senior Warden- one who knew Duncan and the others that died at Ostagar far better than Alistair did- right there arguing for Loghain's recruitment.

Alistair's duty as a warden is to stop the blight by whatever means necessary. Recruiting Loghain can help do that. Alistair refuses out of a desire for revenge. He abandons his duty, he abandons Ferelden, because the man he hates is going to die by the taint and not by the sword.

Riordan only wants Loghain as extra insurance against the Archdemon incase he,Alistair or the Warden die before they can kill it.

Alistair sees joining the Wardens as an honor not a death sentence plus Loghain killed his brother and surrogate family and demonized his order and tried to kill him and his lover/best friend/fellow Warden would you like it if he tried to recruite Howe or Bhelen even knowing what they did to you?

Howe? No. Bhelen? Yes. Howe's a sadistic psychopath who's uncontrolable and unpredictable. Bhelen and Loghain are men who are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve what they see as noble goals, whether I happen to agree with those goals or not.

At the end of the day, Alistair is wrong. Being a Grey Warden isn't an honor. It's not a punishment. It's a calling. A duty. It's not about being a hero. It's about doing whatever it takes to get the job done. Alistair isn't willing to do that; Loghain is. 

I didn't make Alistair leave. He made his own decision. He decided that instead of accepting the reality of what the wardens are, instead of biting the bullet, putting aside his personal feelings, putting aside his childish, idealistic fantasy about what his job was and doing his duty, he was going to take his ball and go home.

[Shadow Fox]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Except that not every scenario has Alistair as king. So if Alistair is an unhardened, unprepared person who just wants to be a Grey Warden and won't accept Loghain into your organization, do you stab Alistair in the back or do you let him get his way?

It's not a stab in the back. Alistair spit in the face of the warden as a person and the wardens as an organization when he threatened to walk if he didn't get his personal vengeance. He wants to throw away that friendship because he doesn't understand what being a grey warden means, he can wallow in the Hanged Man for all I care.

But is IS a stab in the back. You can't talk of betrayl as one one person has dibs on defining it.
Yes, you ARE betrying Alistair. You can think it irrelevant or not important, but it's still betrayl.


Now Loghain? I consider him to big of a liability to let him alive. Rehabilitation is an option when there is no danger...and Loghian still has infulence and suporters, and no guarantee that he won't try to kill you again (other than his word...which is worth jack s*** at this point)

I never told Alistair we'd kill Loghain. I told him we'd stop the blight. I fail to see how not doing something I never told him I'd do is a betrayal.

I do see him walking away from his duty as a grey warden a betrayal after all the sh*t he gave me about it. I do see him walking away from me after I went out of my way to save Aemon's family because he urged me to a betrayal. I see him asking me to kill a defenseless man who's just yeilded in single combat without being tried or sentenced for treason a betrayal.

And yes, you have every reason to think Loghain may well betray you once he joins you. And you know what the funny thing is? He doesn't. Not once. He makes no attempt on your life, he follows your commands without question, and he does his duty. He serves with honor and distinction. He even goes to Orlais to start recruiting their without much of a complaint. 

I don't try and justify or excuse anything Loghain did. And despite my issues with him, I don't condem Alistair for his decision. I understand it. It's human. Alistair is objectively a better person than Loghain. But he doesn't understand what it means to be a warden, and he doesn't have what it takes to be a warden. Loghain, ironically enough, does.

Uh you do know that Duncan's mentor only recruited him because she hoped he'd die a painful death right?

[Former_Fiend]

Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that Duncan's mentor was a terrible grey warden herself. The Calling was one very long, drawn out demonstration of what a terrible warden she was.