2497 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

In that scenario, I suppose it's safer to have Alistair as the spare Warden. Though the complicating factor is that you can choose Loghain over Alistair without Alistair losing his head, but not the converse.

Yes, but if you do that, you're placing a devestated nation in the hands of, well, Alistair.  Also against his wishes unless you harden him.

fchopin wrote...

Loghain dies in all my games whatever Alistair becomes.
I don't let traitors that let there friends die survive if i have any say in the story.

Oooooh my, haha.

[BlueMagitek]

Former_Fiend wrote...

It's not a stab in the back. Alistair spit in the face of the warden as a person and the wardens as an organization when he threatened to walk if he didn't get his personal vengeance. He wants to throw away that friendship because he doesn't understand what being a grey warden means, he can wallow in the Hanged Man for all I care.

Alistair considers it a stab in the back.

[Former_Fiend]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

It's not a stab in the back. Alistair spit in the face of the warden as a person and the wardens as an organization when he threatened to walk if he didn't get his personal vengeance. He wants to throw away that friendship because he doesn't understand what being a grey warden means, he can wallow in the Hanged Man for all I care.

Alistair considers it a stab in the back.

Well, of course he does. People who throw tantrums when they don't get their way generally don't consider what they're doing to be throwing a tantrum.

[Shadow Fox]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...
It's not a stab in the back. Alistair spit in the face of the warden as a person and the wardens as an organization when he threatened to walk if he didn't get his personal vengeance. He wants to throw away that friendship because he doesn't understand what being a grey warden means, he can wallow in the Hanged Man for all I care.

Given that the person he's demanding the execution of:

(i) Plotted to have every single Warden in Ferelden die
(ii) Blamed the order for regicide
(iii) Doggedly pursued and attempted to kill the last 2 remaning GWs 

I can't see how Alistair is actually betraying the GWs. Even if we assume - despite all the evidence to the contrary - that Loghain would actually be a wortwhile asset,  it's still unacceptable for an order to accept into its ranks a person who just spent a year doing everything possible to dismantle it. 

Loghain took a far bigger crap on the Warden's as an organization. 

And yet there is a senior Warden- one who knew Duncan and the others that died at Ostagar far better than Alistair did- right there arguing for Loghain's recruitment.

Alistair's duty as a warden is to stop the blight by whatever means necessary. Recruiting Loghain can help do that. Alistair refuses out of a desire for revenge. He abandons his duty, he abandons Ferelden, because the man he hates is going to die by the taint and not by the sword.

Riordan only wants Loghain as extra insurance against the Archdemon incase he,Alistair or the Warden die before they can kill it.

Alistair sees joining the Wardens as an honor not a death sentence plus Loghain killed his brother and surrogate family and demonized his order and tried to kill him and his lover/best friend/fellow Warden would you like it if he tried to recruite Howe or Bhelen even knowing what they did to you?

Howe? No. Bhelen? Yes. Howe's a sadistic psychopath who's uncontrolable and unpredictable. Bhelen and Loghain are men who are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve what they see as noble goals, whether I happen to agree with those goals or not.

At the end of the day, Alistair is wrong. Being a Grey Warden isn't an honor. It's not a punishment. It's a calling. A duty. It's not about being a hero. It's about doing whatever it takes to get the job done. Alistair isn't willing to do that; Loghain is. 

I didn't make Alistair leave. He made his own decision. He decided that instead of accepting the reality of what the wardens are, instead of biting the bullet, putting aside his personal feelings, putting aside his childish, idealistic fantasy about what his job was and doing his duty, he was going to take his ball and go home.

Howe's still a skilled Rogue  and strategist however and Bhelen's a snake who'd betray anyone for his goals wheras Loghain commits and is partial to attrocites against his own people because he's blinded by his hate of Orlais.

So again I ask would you work with Howe even though he murdered your family or sold them to slavery?You can't expect him to do something you wouldn't if the tables were turned.

Well could you?

[Former_Fiend]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...
It's not a stab in the back. Alistair spit in the face of the warden as a person and the wardens as an organization when he threatened to walk if he didn't get his personal vengeance. He wants to throw away that friendship because he doesn't understand what being a grey warden means, he can wallow in the Hanged Man for all I care.

Given that the person he's demanding the execution of:

(i) Plotted to have every single Warden in Ferelden die
(ii) Blamed the order for regicide
(iii) Doggedly pursued and attempted to kill the last 2 remaning GWs 

I can't see how Alistair is actually betraying the GWs. Even if we assume - despite all the evidence to the contrary - that Loghain would actually be a wortwhile asset,  it's still unacceptable for an order to accept into its ranks a person who just spent a year doing everything possible to dismantle it. 

Loghain took a far bigger crap on the Warden's as an organization. 

And yet there is a senior Warden- one who knew Duncan and the others that died at Ostagar far better than Alistair did- right there arguing for Loghain's recruitment.

Alistair's duty as a warden is to stop the blight by whatever means necessary. Recruiting Loghain can help do that. Alistair refuses out of a desire for revenge. He abandons his duty, he abandons Ferelden, because the man he hates is going to die by the taint and not by the sword.

Riordan only wants Loghain as extra insurance against the Archdemon incase he,Alistair or the Warden die before they can kill it.

Alistair sees joining the Wardens as an honor not a death sentence plus Loghain killed his brother and surrogate family and demonized his order and tried to kill him and his lover/best friend/fellow Warden would you like it if he tried to recruite Howe or Bhelen even knowing what they did to you?

Howe? No. Bhelen? Yes. Howe's a sadistic psychopath who's uncontrolable and unpredictable. Bhelen and Loghain are men who are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve what they see as noble goals, whether I happen to agree with those goals or not.

At the end of the day, Alistair is wrong. Being a Grey Warden isn't an honor. It's not a punishment. It's a calling. A duty. It's not about being a hero. It's about doing whatever it takes to get the job done. Alistair isn't willing to do that; Loghain is. 

I didn't make Alistair leave. He made his own decision. He decided that instead of accepting the reality of what the wardens are, instead of biting the bullet, putting aside his personal feelings, putting aside his childish, idealistic fantasy about what his job was and doing his duty, he was going to take his ball and go home.

Howe's still a skilled Rogue  and strategist however and Bhelen's a snake who'd betray anyone for his goals wheras Loghain commits and is partial to attrocites against his own people because he's blinded by his hate of Orlais.

So again I ask would you work with Howe even though he murdered your family or sold them to slavery?You can't expect him to do something you wouldn't if the tables were turned.

Well could you?

You know what? Yes. Yes, I could live with rolling the dice that Howe dies a painful death choking on darkspawn blood, with the knowledge that if he survives, I can kill him after this whole Blight business is over.

[Shadow Fox]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that Duncan's mentor was a terrible grey warden herself. The Calling was one very long, drawn out demonstration of what a terrible warden she was.

And that the First Warden meddles in politics despite his Order forbidding it?Or that Janeka put a hit on someone because she thought it a good idea to release a dangerous Darkspawn?Or Shroud recruiting someone because he owed Anders a favour?Or even Duncan recruiting Alistair because he took pity on him/was friends with his parents?Or Fiona getting involed in the Mage-Templar war?

[Shadow Fox]

Former_Fiend wrote...



You know what? Yes. Yes, I could live with rolling the dice that Howe dies a painful death choking on darkspawn blood, with the knowledge that if he survives, I can kill him after this whole Blight business is over.

Except that's not what I asked I asked if you could WORK  with him if you could swallow the fact that he would be remembered as a hero and that his crimes against you and your family would go unanswered? And what if you couldn't kill him instead you had to live with the fact that your family's murderer went unpunished and you not only couldn't do anything about it you're expected to treat him as a comrade what then?

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 19 octobre 2013 - 09:55 .

[Br3admax]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that Duncan's mentor was a terrible grey warden herself. The Calling was one very long, drawn out demonstration of what a terrible warden she was.

And that the First Warden meddles in politics despite his Order forbidding it?Or that Janeka put a hit on someone because she thought it a good idea to release a dangerous Darkspawn?Or Shroud recruiting someone because he owed Anders a favour?Or even Duncan recruiting Alistair because he took pity on him/was friends with his parents?Or Fiona getting involed in the Mage-Templar war?

Fiona is not a Grey Warden anymore. 

[Shadow Fox]

Br3ad wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that Duncan's mentor was a terrible grey warden herself. The Calling was one very long, drawn out demonstration of what a terrible warden she was.

And that the First Warden meddles in politics despite his Order forbidding it?Or that Janeka put a hit on someone because she thought it a good idea to release a dangerous Darkspawn?Or Shroud recruiting someone because he owed Anders a favour?Or even Duncan recruiting Alistair because he took pity on him/was friends with his parents?Or Fiona getting involed in the Mage-Templar war?

Fiona is not a Grey Warden anymore. 

So she's an Anders then.My bad.

[Former_Fiend]

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

[Br3admax]

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

I don't care about revenge. I don't care about killing. I don't care about making anyone feel better. This is about nobles thinking they are above the laws that they set for themselves. I'll make them follow them. 

[Gwydden]

Br3ad wrote...

I don't care about revenge. I don't care about killing. I don't care about making anyone feel better. This is about nobles thinking they are above the laws that they set for themselves. I'll make them follow them. 

Loghain is very detached from the typical noble. And, in Thedas, most laws appear as flexible as chewing gum. Not saying I disagree with you, mind you, but you can't judge Thedas with current moral standards.

[Former_Fiend]

Br3ad wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

I don't care about revenge. I don't care about killing. I don't care about making anyone feel better. This is about nobles thinking they are above the laws that they set for themselves. I'll make them follow them. 

I sentenced him to death, to. I just used a joining cup instead of a sword; my method lets him be of some use before he dies.

[Br3admax]

Gwydden wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I don't care about revenge. I don't care about killing. I don't care about making anyone feel better. This is about nobles thinking they are above the laws that they set for themselves. I'll make them follow them. 

Loghain is very detached from the typical noble. And, in Thedas, most laws appear as flexible as chewing gum. Not saying I disagree with you, mind you, but you can't judge Thedas with current moral standards.

Treason has been a crime punishable by death for the highest noble sense fudalism. You do know this right? 

[Br3admax]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

I don't care about revenge. I don't care about killing. I don't care about making anyone feel better. This is about nobles thinking they are above the laws that they set for themselves. I'll make them follow them. 

I sentenced him to death, to. I just used a joining cup instead of a sword; my method lets him be of some use before he dies.

Except you don't know about this at the time, and you only hope that he will die. 

[Former_Fiend]

Br3ad wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

I don't care about revenge. I don't care about killing. I don't care about making anyone feel better. This is about nobles thinking they are above the laws that they set for themselves. I'll make them follow them. 

I sentenced him to death, to. I just used a joining cup instead of a sword; my method lets him be of some use before he dies.

Except you don't know about this at the time, and you only hope that he will die. 

No, you know that becoming a Grey Warden is a death sentence at that point. Whether or not he'll kill the archdemon is irrelevant(and my personal canon is a dark ritual run, so he didn't); sooner or later, he'll die in a dank, dark hole, surrounded by darkspawn.

[Shadow Fox]

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

Again you couldn't kill him he lives if Alistair is denied his revenge so are you it's only fair I'm asking if you could accept that?
Neither was Loghain you had to force him to submit via winning a duel.

[Shadow Fox]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

I don't care about revenge. I don't care about killing. I don't care about making anyone feel better. This is about nobles thinking they are above the laws that they set for themselves. I'll make them follow them. 

I sentenced him to death, to. I just used a joining cup instead of a sword; my method lets him be of some use before he dies.

Except you don't know about this at the time, and you only hope that he will die. 

No, you know that becoming a Grey Warden is a death sentence at that point. Whether or not he'll kill the archdemon is irrelevant(and my personal canon is a dark ritual run, so he didn't); sooner or later, he'll die in a dank, dark hole, surrounded by darkspawn.

yes in 10-30 years and that's if he doesn't simply commit suicide.

[Former_Fiend]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

yes in 10-30 years and that's if he doesn't simply commit suicide.

Ten to thirty years of him being useful.

As a point, the epilogue states that he serves with distinction and earns the respect of his fellow wardens- further proving that Alistair was really the only one who cared about what Loghain did, and thus was missing the damn point- before going on his calling.

I'm kind of hoping that takes place after inquisition and he'll show up in the game as the Warden Commander of Orlais, but that's wishful thinking on my part.

[cjones91]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

Again you couldn't kill him he lives if Alistair is denied his revenge so are you it's only fair I'm asking if you could accept that?
Neither was Loghain you had to force him to submit via winning a duel.

You're forgetting that Gray Wardens are supposed to not let personal feelings get in the way when it comes to fighting the darkspawn.

[Br3admax]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

yes in 10-30 years and that's if he doesn't simply commit suicide.

Ten to thirty years of him being useful.

As a point, the epilogue states that he serves with distinction and earns the respect of his fellow wardens- further proving that Alistair was really the only one who cared about what Loghain did, and thus was missing the damn point- before going on his calling.

I'm kind of hoping that takes place after inquisition and he'll show up in the game as the Warden Commander of Orlais, but that's wishful thinking on my part.

Lots of assumptions form earning respect. I respect many tyrants throughout history. I would still kill everyone of them if given the chance. 

[Former_Fiend]

Br3ad wrote...


Lots of assumptions form earning respect. I respect many tyrants throughout history. I would still kill everyone of them if given the chance. 

I stand by Riordan as the principle example. The man was Duncan's best friend. He had known him for longer than Alistair had been alive. They went through the joining together. And he did not care about what Loghain did. Hell, he was even against Loghain being the one to take the final blow.

[Shadow Fox]

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

Again you couldn't kill him he lives if Alistair is denied his revenge so are you it's only fair I'm asking if you could accept that?
Neither was Loghain you had to force him to submit via winning a duel.

You're forgetting that Gray Wardens are supposed to not let personal feelings get in the way when it comes to fighting the darkspawn.

Except most do so I fail to see why Alistair alone is condemned for this.

[cjones91]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

Again you couldn't kill him he lives if Alistair is denied his revenge so are you it's only fair I'm asking if you could accept that?
Neither was Loghain you had to force him to submit via winning a duel.

You're forgetting that Gray Wardens are supposed to not let personal feelings get in the way when it comes to fighting the darkspawn.

Except most do so I fail to see why Alistair alone is condemned for this.

Because Alistair went AWOL during a freaking Blight,the other Gray Wardens did'nt abandon their duties to fight darkspawn because they had a hissy fit.

[Gwydden]

Br3ad wrote...

Treason has been a crime punishable by death for the highest noble sense fudalism. You do know this right? 

Yes, but only if you lose. Plenty of nobles and not so noble people seem willing to support Loghain or just let the matter go if the Warden didn't have a good case.