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[Br3admax]

Gwydden wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Treason has been a crime punishable by death for the highest noble sense fudalism. You do know this right? 

Yes, but only if you lose. Plenty of nobles and not so noble people seem willing to support Loghain or just let the matter go if the Warden didn't have a good case.

Loghain lost, friend. 

[Shadow Fox]

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

Again you couldn't kill him he lives if Alistair is denied his revenge so are you it's only fair I'm asking if you could accept that?
Neither was Loghain you had to force him to submit via winning a duel.

You're forgetting that Gray Wardens are supposed to not let personal feelings get in the way when it comes to fighting the darkspawn.

Except most do so I fail to see why Alistair alone is condemned for this.

Because Alistair went AWOL during a freaking Blight,the other Gray Wardens did'nt abandon their duties to fight darkspawn because they had a hissy fit.

Velanna,Anders and all the Wardens in The Calling did:whistle: and Janeka helped free an extremely dangerous Darkspawn as well.

[cjones91]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

Again you couldn't kill him he lives if Alistair is denied his revenge so are you it's only fair I'm asking if you could accept that?
Neither was Loghain you had to force him to submit via winning a duel.

You're forgetting that Gray Wardens are supposed to not let personal feelings get in the way when it comes to fighting the darkspawn.

Except most do so I fail to see why Alistair alone is condemned for this.

Because Alistair went AWOL during a freaking Blight,the other Gray Wardens did'nt abandon their duties to fight darkspawn because they had a hissy fit.

Velanna,Anders and all the Wardens in The Calling did:whistle: and Janeka helped free an extremely dangerous Darkspawn as well.

But did they abandon their duties during a Blight?Because Alistair did and that makes it much morse.

[Gwydden]

Br3ad wrote...

Loghain lost, friend. 

Yes. However, what I was trying to say was that not that many people cared about what he did until the Warden came along. Even the civil war sparked not because he was suspected to have abandoned Cailan and the army at Ostagar, but because he forcefully appointed himself as regent.

[Shadow Fox]

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

Again you couldn't kill him he lives if Alistair is denied his revenge so are you it's only fair I'm asking if you could accept that?
Neither was Loghain you had to force him to submit via winning a duel.

You're forgetting that Gray Wardens are supposed to not let personal feelings get in the way when it comes to fighting the darkspawn.

Except most do so I fail to see why Alistair alone is condemned for this.

Because Alistair went AWOL during a freaking Blight,the other Gray Wardens did'nt abandon their duties to fight darkspawn because they had a hissy fit.

Velanna,Anders and all the Wardens in The Calling did:whistle: and Janeka helped free an extremely dangerous Darkspawn as well.

But did they abandon their duties during a Blight?Because Alistair did and that makes it much morse.

No it isn't given he doesn't know why Wardens only can kill Darkspawn and doesn't leave the party only after you betray him.

[TK514]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

Again you couldn't kill him he lives if Alistair is denied his revenge so are you it's only fair I'm asking if you could accept that?
Neither was Loghain you had to force him to submit via winning a duel.

You're forgetting that Gray Wardens are supposed to not let personal feelings get in the way when it comes to fighting the darkspawn.

Except most do so I fail to see why Alistair alone is condemned for this.

Because we hold our friends especially to higher standards than we do other people.  We expect them to be better than the faceless masses.  We expect them to trust us when we lead by example the same way we should trust them when they do.

And we are disappointed when they refuse to trust us, especially in times of conflict and stress.

It honestly doesn't matter what the Head Warden does, or what Fiona did, or what any of those others.  They could be goat buggering baby eaters, for all I care.  Our characters don't know them, and at that point, we don't know even know they exist, except as an abstract 'other Wardens must be out there somewhere'.  Alistair was a major factor in teaching The Warden of what it meant to BE a Warden.  Everything our characters know about the organization stems from three sources:  Stories learned while growing up, a couple of days of mystery from Duncan, and a year with Alistair.

So what you're seeing at the Landsmeet is Alistair spitting on your friendship and Duncan's memory.  He is implicitly saying that he doesn't trust your judgement and he doesn't care about the things Duncan believed in or what he's been teaching you for the last year.  That he would rather stand by and let every man, woman and child in Ferelden, and possibly beyond, be murdered by the Darkspawn than have Loghain choke to death on a Tainted Chalice or live to become a death seeking ghoul in 10-30 years.  That level of betrayal would be bad enough in a random comrade in arms.  From a friend?

And honestly, it could have been forgiven as a spur of the moment outburst if we'd had the chance to talk to him later and explain.  He's a joker, but I never thought he was immune to reason.  I expected, until DA2, that if given time to cool down and talk about it, he could have been brought around.  But since Drunken Moron Alistair is only the worst of several potential Alistairs, I tend to treat that as the result of a series of the worst case scenarios that led him there, rather than who he really was if given half a chance.

Someone asked about the HN working with Howe if the situation had come down to him being offered the Chalice;  from my perspective, absolutely.  I wouldn't have had anything to do with the man, socially, but I'd have listened to the advice of an individual who was smart enough and ruthless enough to engineer the near extermination of a more powerful rival's family, take their lands, and then negotiate and manipulate his way into some of the most powerful positions in the nation.  And then I'd have made certain that, post Blight, we were never in the same country together again.

Modifié par TK514, 19 octobre 2013 - 11:59 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Because Alistair went AWOL during a freaking Blight,the other Gray Wardens did'nt abandon their duties to fight darkspawn because they had a hissy fit.

Velanna,Anders and all the Wardens in The Calling did:whistle: and Janeka helped free an extremely dangerous Darkspawn as well.

But did they abandon their duties during a Blight?Because Alistair did and that makes it much morse.

No it isn't given he doesn't know why Wardens only can kill Darkspawn and doesn't leave the party only after you betray him.

The what-Alistair-considers-a-betrayal is entirely consistent with Grey Warden values. Abandoning the Wardens is the opposite of that. And despite Alistair not knowing why the Wardens were literally necessary, he already knew enough to know that he was valuable.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 octobre 2013 - 11:53 .

[cjones91]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

I've always wanted the option to, as a Coulsand warden, tell Alistair after the blight was over, "Yes, I took my revenge on Howe. And you know what? It didn't change a damn thing. It didn't bring my mother or father back. It didn't give my brother his wife and son back. All vengeance got me was the chance to see a man my father considered his best friend spit on his name as he choked to death on his own blood."

Yes, I could have worked with Howe for just long enough to get the job done, and then I'd kill him. And no, I wouldn't have cared if he was remembered as a hero if he made the sacrifice because he would have been dead.

This is a moot point, however. Howe would never had been able to swallow his pride and accept defeat with the grace Loghain did, would have never accepted submitting to the joining, and if he was held down and forced to drink, and survived, would have never had the courage the strike the final blow on the Archdemon.

Again you couldn't kill him he lives if Alistair is denied his revenge so are you it's only fair I'm asking if you could accept that?
Neither was Loghain you had to force him to submit via winning a duel.

You're forgetting that Gray Wardens are supposed to not let personal feelings get in the way when it comes to fighting the darkspawn.

Except most do so I fail to see why Alistair alone is condemned for this.

Because Alistair went AWOL during a freaking Blight,the other Gray Wardens did'nt abandon their duties to fight darkspawn because they had a hissy fit.

Velanna,Anders and all the Wardens in The Calling did:whistle: and Janeka helped free an extremely dangerous Darkspawn as well.

But did they abandon their duties during a Blight?Because Alistair did and that makes it much morse.

No it isn't given he doesn't know why Wardens only can kill Darkspawn and doesn't leave the party only after you betray him.

What you consider a betrayal I consider using a valuable asset to deal with a greater threat.

[BlueMagitek]

Could you guys trim quotes? Thanks.

[Xilizhra]

No, you know that becoming a Grey Warden is a death sentence at that point. Whether or not he'll kill the archdemon is irrelevant(and my personal canon is a dark ritual run, so he didn't); sooner or later, he'll die in a dank, dark hole, surrounded by darkspawn.

The guy's in his fifties and newly a Grey Warden; the odds that the taint will get him before old age does seem rather low.

I'm neutral on Loghain, truth be told. I can see why he's a useful asset to bring into the fold (although whether he's more useful than Alistair, I don't know), but he's also a racist fiend, which is fairly easy to discern from his plan to enslave the Alienage for extremely spurious reasons. As such, I make the entire question moot by choosing Alistair to duel him; my Dalish Warden considers it to really be more his fight than hers.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

The guy's in his fifties and newly a Grey Warden; the odds that the taint will get him before old age does seem rather low.

I'm neutral on Loghain, truth be told. I can see why he's a useful asset to bring into the fold (although whether he's more useful than Alistair, I don't know), but he's also a racist fiend, which is fairly easy to discern from his plan to enslave the Alienage for extremely spurious reasons. As such, I make the entire question moot by choosing Alistair to duel him; my Dalish Warden considers it to really be more his fight than hers.

I think it was Howe's plan, rather than Loghain's, but I can understand despising him for his part in selling the elves into slavery. I've spared Loghain, even though it was likely that my Surana Warden lost some of his family to slavery. Then again, I spared Zevran, and I saw my Warden has pragmatic about stopping the Blight.

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The guy's in his fifties and newly a Grey Warden; the odds that the taint will get him before old age does seem rather low.

I'm neutral on Loghain, truth be told. I can see why he's a useful asset to bring into the fold (although whether he's more useful than Alistair, I don't know), but he's also a racist fiend, which is fairly easy to discern from his plan to enslave the Alienage for extremely spurious reasons. As such, I make the entire question moot by choosing Alistair to duel him; my Dalish Warden considers it to really be more his fight than hers.

I think it was Howe's plan, rather than Loghain's, but I can understand despising him for his part in selling the elves into slavery. I've spared Loghain, even though it was likely that my Surana Warden lost some of his family to slavery. Then again, I spared Zevran, and I saw my Warden has pragmatic about stopping the Blight.

Riordan never mentions recruiting Loghain in this situation, Alistair just kills him immediately. If he had made the offer first, I'd probably feel obligated to spare Loghain, but I think I like the story more with Alistair there.

[Sir DeLoria]

I would never even think for a second about sparing that treacherous coward Loghain, he deserves to be denounced and executed.

[Steelcan]

Necanor wrote...

I would never even think for a second about sparing that treacherous coward Loghain, he deserves to be denounced and executed.

No

[Sir DeLoria]

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

I would never even think for a second about sparing that treacherous coward Loghain, he deserves to be denounced and executed.

No

Alistair disapproves -20

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, you know that becoming a Grey Warden is a death sentence at that point. Whether or not he'll kill the archdemon is irrelevant(and my personal canon is a dark ritual run, so he didn't); sooner or later, he'll die in a dank, dark hole, surrounded by darkspawn.

The guy's in his fifties and newly a Grey Warden; the odds that the taint will get him before old age does seem rather low.

We have from Gaider that being old doesn't help you fight the Taint.

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, you know that becoming a Grey Warden is a death sentence at that point. Whether or not he'll kill the archdemon is irrelevant(and my personal canon is a dark ritual run, so he didn't); sooner or later, he'll die in a dank, dark hole, surrounded by darkspawn.

The guy's in his fifties and newly a Grey Warden; the odds that the taint will get him before old age does seem rather low.

We have from Gaider that being old doesn't help you fight the Taint.

I know, but doesn't it take like thirty years for the Calling to come?

[Steelcan]

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

I would never even think for a second about sparing that treacherous coward Loghain, he deserves to be denounced and executed.

No

Alistair disapproves -20

Alistair can stick himself on a pike for trying to kill the greatest hero Ferelden has ever known

[HiroVoid]

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

I would never even think for a second about sparing that treacherous coward Loghain, he deserves to be denounced and executed.

No

Alistair disapproves -20

Execution time I guess.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Necanor wrote...

I would never even think for a second about sparing that treacherous coward Loghain, he deserves to be denounced and executed.

One of his battlecries is "I do not fear death," and when he is approached with regards to the Dark Ritual he says he'd be more than willing to die to atone for his sins. Which he backs up if you don't do the Ritual and you have him on the roof. Coward is not the word for this.

[cjones91]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, you know that becoming a Grey Warden is a death sentence at that point. Whether or not he'll kill the archdemon is irrelevant(and my personal canon is a dark ritual run, so he didn't); sooner or later, he'll die in a dank, dark hole, surrounded by darkspawn.

The guy's in his fifties and newly a Grey Warden; the odds that the taint will get him before old age does seem rather low.

We have from Gaider that being old doesn't help you fight the Taint.

I know, but doesn't it take like thirty years for the Calling to come?

I believe the Taint worsens depending on how old the Gray Warden is.

[HiroVoid]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, you know that becoming a Grey Warden is a death sentence at that point. Whether or not he'll kill the archdemon is irrelevant(and my personal canon is a dark ritual run, so he didn't); sooner or later, he'll die in a dank, dark hole, surrounded by darkspawn.

The guy's in his fifties and newly a Grey Warden; the odds that the taint will get him before old age does seem rather low.

We have from Gaider that being old doesn't help you fight the Taint.

I know, but doesn't it take like thirty years for the Calling to come?

I think I remember hearing Gaider mention the taint can affect a person faster if the person is also older.

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

I would never even think for a second about sparing that treacherous coward Loghain, he deserves to be denounced and executed.

No

Alistair disapproves -20

Alistair can stick himself on a pike for trying to kill the greatest hero Ferelden has ever known

I'm fairly sure Alistair never attacks the PC.

One of his battlecries is "I do not fear death," and when he is
approached with regards to the Dark Ritual he says he'd be more than
willing to die to atone for his sins. Which he backs up if you don't do
the Ritual and you have him on the roof. Coward is not the word for
this.

I'd count him better for this if he showed any signs of guilt about his worst sin.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 octobre 2013 - 12:58 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...
I would never even think for a second about sparing that treacherous coward Loghain, he deserves to be denounced and executed.

No

Alistair disapproves -20

Alistair can stick himself on a pike for trying to kill the greatest hero Ferelden has ever known

Who was responsible for the complete defeat at Ostagar, the king's death, the near complete destruction of the Wardens and the near demise of his oh so beloved Fereldan. Come on mate, it's obvious he's done more harm than good.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, you know that becoming a Grey Warden is a death sentence at that point. Whether or not he'll kill the archdemon is irrelevant(and my personal canon is a dark ritual run, so he didn't); sooner or later, he'll die in a dank, dark hole, surrounded by darkspawn.

The guy's in his fifties and newly a Grey Warden; the odds that the taint will get him before old age does seem rather low.

We have from Gaider that being old doesn't help you fight the Taint.

I know, but doesn't it take like thirty years for the Calling to come?

At most. Gaider decided to retcon it to be worse.

Also, bear in mind that Loghain Joins during a Blight (which is supposed to not be good for a Warden's lifespan, though I'm not sure its a problem in and of itself), and is a melee fighter (which gets him covered in blood frequently, that's also not good. In fact I'm wondering if that's not the main problem with the former.)