2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

At most. Gaider decided to retcon it to be worse.

Also, bear in mind that Loghain Joins during a Blight (which is supposed to not be good for a Warden's lifespan, though I'm not sure its a problem in and of itself), and is a melee fighter (which gets him covered in blood frequently, that's also not good. In fact I'm wondering if that's not the main problem with the former.)

Damn you, Gaider!

It sort of makes me want to go back to my mage Warden over the Dalish, so I could copy Avernus' trick with delaying the Calling indefinitely.

[Steelcan]

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...
I would never even think for a second about sparing that treacherous coward Loghain, he deserves to be denounced and executed.

No

Alistair disapproves -20

Alistair can stick himself on a pike for trying to kill the greatest hero Ferelden has ever known

Who was responsible for the complete defeat at Ostagar, the king's death, the near complete destruction of the Wardens and the near demise of his oh so beloved Fereldan. Come on mate, it's obvious he's done more harm than good.

Implying that
1. Ostagar was winnable, it wasn't
2. Cailan should be king, he shouldn't (competence is a nice quality in a leader)

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

One of his battlecries is "I do not fear death," and when he is
approached with regards to the Dark Ritual he says he'd be more than
willing to die to atone for his sins. Which he backs up if you don't do
the Ritual and you have him on the roof. Coward is not the word for
this.

I'd count him better for this if he showed any signs of guilt about his worst sin.

Selling those filthy knife ears?

[AresKeith]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

At most. Gaider decided to retcon it to be worse.

Also, bear in mind that Loghain Joins during a Blight (which is supposed to not be good for a Warden's lifespan, though I'm not sure its a problem in and of itself), and is a melee fighter (which gets him covered in blood frequently, that's also not good. In fact I'm wondering if that's not the main problem with the former.)

I think it still depends on the willpower of the Warden's, though I could be wrong

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...
I would never even think for a second about sparing that treacherous coward Loghain, he deserves to be denounced and executed.

No

Alistair disapproves -20

Alistair can stick himself on a pike for trying to kill the greatest hero Ferelden has ever known

Who was responsible for the complete defeat at Ostagar, the king's death, the near complete destruction of the Wardens and the near demise of his oh so beloved Fereldan. Come on mate, it's obvious he's done more harm than good.

You are massively oversimplifying.

The defeat at Ostagar was inevitable. There are too many darkspawn, as we have from Gaider and from actually watching the battle. The King's death was not entirely Loghain's fault either. Loghain seems to have annoyed Cailan not to fight on the front, which is a good idea whether or not Loghain planned to withdraw. And that's all Loghain can really do, legally. The near complete destruction of the Wardens? That was because the bulk of them were at the front, which Duncan should have pointed out was foolish. The near complete demise of Ferelden? Okay, some of the blame for that is with Loghain, since he massively failed uniting Ferelden. Teagan is also partially responsible, since he raised his objection to Loghain's actions before the Blight was settled. Accusing the main general of treason is the sort of thing you do after the darkspawn are dead.

Loghain has done things that are legitimately wrong. Ostagar is not one of them.

[Sir DeLoria]

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Who was responsible for the complete defeat at Ostagar, the king's death, the near complete destruction of the Wardens and the near demise of his oh so beloved Fereldan. Come on mate, it's obvious he's done more harm than good.

Implying that
1. Ostagar was winnable, it wasn't
2. Cailan should be king, he shouldn't (competence is a nice quality in a leader)

Was framing the Grey Wardens a heroic deed? On what basis do you think Ostagar was not winnable? 

Even if Cailan was a foolish moron, he had the birthright to the thrown and killing him was terrible for the stability of the country. The Blight could've been ended sooner, if Loghain wasn't such a ignorant meathead and had called for foreign support.

[Xilizhra]

The near complete demise of Ferelden? Okay, some of the blame for that is with Loghain, since he massively failed uniting Ferelden. Teagan is also partially responsible, since he raised his objection to Loghain's actions before the Blight was settled. Accusing the main general of treason is the sort of thing you do after the darkspawn are dead.

Teagan only said something after Loghain tried to seize ultimate power. That wasn't even necessary; he should have let Anora handle the political side. That's what she's good at, it's what she's been doing for Cailan's whole reign. All he has to be is a general, but he tried to be a dictator and ruined everything.

[Steelcan]

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Who was responsible for the complete defeat at Ostagar, the king's death, the near complete destruction of the Wardens and the near demise of his oh so beloved Fereldan. Come on mate, it's obvious he's done more harm than good.

Implying that
1. Ostagar was winnable, it wasn't
2. Cailan should be king, he shouldn't (competence is a nice quality in a leader)

Was framing the Grey Wardens a heroic deed? On what basis do you think Ostagar was not winnable? 

Even if Cailan was a foolish moron, he had the birthright to the thrown and killing him was terrible for the stability of the country. The Blight could've been ended sooner, if Loghain wasn't such a ignorant meathead and had called for foreign support.

1.  Return to Ostagar plus common sense establish it pretty well.
2.  So its A-oh as long as he is the rightful heir <_< pls...  And given how Orlais in DA2 is said to be eyeing Ferelden again I'd say his mistrust was entirely justified

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

The near complete demise of Ferelden? Okay, some of the blame for that is with Loghain, since he massively failed uniting Ferelden. Teagan is also partially responsible, since he raised his objection to Loghain's actions before the Blight was settled. Accusing the main general of treason is the sort of thing you do after the darkspawn are dead.

Teagan only said something after Loghain tried to seize ultimate power. That wasn't even necessary; he should have let Anora handle the political side. That's what she's good at, it's what she's been doing for Cailan's whole reign. All he has to be is a general, but he tried to be a dictator and ruined everything.

Which Teagan objected to at rather a suboptimal time.

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

The near complete demise of Ferelden? Okay, some of the blame for that is with Loghain, since he massively failed uniting Ferelden. Teagan is also partially responsible, since he raised his objection to Loghain's actions before the Blight was settled. Accusing the main general of treason is the sort of thing you do after the darkspawn are dead.

Teagan only said something after Loghain tried to seize ultimate power. That wasn't even necessary; he should have let Anora handle the political side. That's what she's good at, it's what she's been doing for Cailan's whole reign. All he has to be is a general, but he tried to be a dictator and ruined everything.

Because Eamon was not trying to sieze power right? Oh wait, Teagan didn't care if Eamon was doing it.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...
I would never even think for a second about sparing that treacherous coward Loghain, he deserves to be denounced and executed.

No

Alistair disapproves -20

Alistair can stick himself on a pike for trying to kill the greatest hero Ferelden has ever known

Who was responsible for the complete defeat at Ostagar, the king's death, the near complete destruction of the Wardens and the near demise of his oh so beloved Fereldan. Come on mate, it's obvious he's done more harm than good.

Implying that
1. Ostagar was winnable, it wasn't
2. Cailan should be king, he shouldn't (competence is a nice quality in a leader)

He did imprison his daughter, the queen, in order to run her country though. And refuged to accept any aide when it was obviously needed against the darkspawn. And was more than incompetent in his time running his so called beloved country by having his diplomacy be in the form of a giant metal fist to the face.

Then there's allowing tevinter to kdinap fereldan citizens for new slaves in exchange for funds, ignoring the massive undermining of his country authority to their former rulers, along with hiring a blood mage to poison the arl of redcliffe and thus led to the entire forces being unsalvagable for the war against the darkspawn instead of simply having him, I don't know, take conner hostage and force the arl's alligance in the crisis. Than there's the blatent throwing out of laws governing the land in order to allow a illegal slaughter of the cousland bloodline by howe in a power grab. Allowing howe to run the state in every matter loghian did not, and not allowing his daughter to run anything.

He's basically a really dumb person whose suppose to represent a pragmatist, but is just a incompentent arse in execution.

[Sir DeLoria]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You are massively oversimplifying.

The defeat at Ostagar was inevitable. There are too many darkspawn, as we have from Gaider and from actually watching the battle. The King's death was not entirely Loghain's fault either. Loghain seems to have annoyed Cailan not to fight on the front, which is a good idea whether or not Loghain planned to withdraw. And that's all Loghain can really do, legally. The near complete destruction of the Wardens? That was because the bulk of them were at the front, which Duncan should have pointed out was foolish. The near complete demise of Ferelden? Okay, some of the blame for that is with Loghain, since he massively failed uniting Ferelden. Teagan is also partially responsible, since he raised his objection to Loghain's actions before the Blight was settled. Accusing the main general of treason is the sort of thing you do after the darkspawn are dead.

Loghain has done things that are legitimately wrong. Ostagar is not one of them.

Yes, Loghain was very heroic. Poisining opponents, hunting down allies, ignoring and denying the blight, not calling for foreign support when it was needed etc
Even if he was not responsible for Ostagar, I can think of plenty good reasons to chop his hideous head off.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Necanor wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You are massively oversimplifying.

The defeat at Ostagar was inevitable. There are too many darkspawn, as we have from Gaider and from actually watching the battle. The King's death was not entirely Loghain's fault either. Loghain seems to have annoyed Cailan not to fight on the front, which is a good idea whether or not Loghain planned to withdraw. And that's all Loghain can really do, legally. The near complete destruction of the Wardens? That was because the bulk of them were at the front, which Duncan should have pointed out was foolish. The near complete demise of Ferelden? Okay, some of the blame for that is with Loghain, since he massively failed uniting Ferelden. Teagan is also partially responsible, since he raised his objection to Loghain's actions before the Blight was settled. Accusing the main general of treason is the sort of thing you do after the darkspawn are dead.

Loghain has done things that are legitimately wrong. Ostagar is not one of them.

Yes, Loghain was very heroic. Poisining opponents, hunting down allies, ignoring and denying the blight, not calling for foreign support when it was needed etc
Even if he was not responsible for Ostagar, I can think of plenty good reasons to chop his hideous head off.

That's fair.

Darth Brotarian wrote...

He's basically a really dumb person whose suppose to represent a pragmatist, but is just a incompentent arse in execution. 

And this.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 octobre 2013 - 01:10 .

[Xilizhra]

Which Teagan objected to at rather a suboptimal time.

Because, to someone who hadn't been at Ostagar, it certainly looked like a simple coup.

Because Eamon was not trying to sieze power right? Oh wait, Teagan didn't care if Eamon was doing it.

Er, Eamon was either dying or trying only to oppose Loghain during the course of the game (aside from the final battle). If he is trying to seize power, he's subtle enough about it that Teagan either doesn't notice or doesn't consider it important at the time... and since Eamon isn't nearly as disruptive about it, it's not causing as many problems for the nation against the Blight.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Necanor wrote...
I would never even think for a second about sparing that treacherous coward Loghain, he deserves to be denounced and executed.

No

Alistair disapproves -20

Alistair can stick himself on a pike for trying to kill the greatest hero Ferelden has ever known

Who was responsible for the complete defeat at Ostagar, the king's death, the near complete destruction of the Wardens and the near demise of his oh so beloved Fereldan. Come on mate, it's obvious he's done more harm than good.

You are massively oversimplifying.

The defeat at Ostagar was inevitable. There are too many darkspawn, as we have from Gaider and from actually watching the battle. The King's death was not entirely Loghain's fault either. Loghain seems to have annoyed Cailan not to fight on the front, which is a good idea whether or not Loghain planned to withdraw. And that's all Loghain can really do, legally. The near complete destruction of the Wardens? That was because the bulk of them were at the front, which Duncan should have pointed out was foolish. The near complete demise of Ferelden? Okay, some of the blame for that is with Loghain, since he massively failed uniting Ferelden. Teagan is also partially responsible, since he raised his objection to Loghain's actions before the Blight was settled. Accusing the main general of treason is the sort of thing you do after the darkspawn are dead.

Loghain has done things that are legitimately wrong. Ostagar is not one of them.

Except for the fact that it was treason, and he never once tried to bring up any of his points and instead did a half-assed scheme of blaming the wardens and orlais, which was only because of his own prejudice.

Anyone who would rather see his country get pillaged by darkspawn than get allies from another country to help, in the crisis that has needed multiple countries untied to defeat before, should not be taken seriously.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Which Teagan objected to at rather a suboptimal time.

Because, to someone who hadn't been at Ostagar, it certainly looked like a simple coup.

Not the time to handle this.

[Steelcan]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

He did imprison his daughter, the queen, in order to run her country though. And refuged to accept any aide when it was obviously needed against the darkspawn. And was more than incompetent in his time running his so called beloved country by having his diplomacy be in the form of a giant metal fist to the face.

Then there's allowing tevinter to kdinap fereldan citizens for new slaves in exchange for funds, ignoring the massive undermining of his country authority to their former rulers, along with hiring a blood mage to poison the arl of redcliffe and thus led to the entire forces being unsalvagable for the war against the darkspawn instead of simply having him, I don't know, take conner hostage and force the arl's alligance in the crisis. Than there's the blatent throwing out of laws governing the land in order to allow a illegal slaughter of the cousland bloodline by howe in a power grab. Allowing howe to run the state in every matter loghian did not, and not allowing his daughter to run anything.

He's basically a really dumb person whose suppose to represent a pragmatist, but is just a incompentent arse in execution.

Accepting help from a known enemy who is known to have ambitions of retaking your alnd is not a good idea. 

Letting the Tevinters kidnap elves was extreme but he needed money, not defending it, just saying there was a rationale however deplorable. 

He wouldn't be the first to try and take out his opposition with assassination.

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Which Teagan objected to at rather a suboptimal time.

Because, to someone who hadn't been at Ostagar, it certainly looked like a simple coup.

Not the time to handle this.

Either way, Loghain should never have put himself into that position. He's not only a terrible politician, he evidently doesn't recognize his own shortcomings.

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Which Teagan objected to at rather a suboptimal time.

Because, to someone who hadn't been at Ostagar, it certainly looked like a simple coup.

Not the time to handle this.

Either way, Loghain should never have put himself into that position. He's not only a terrible politician, he evidently doesn't recognize his own shortcomings.

His speech before his sacerfice does show he recognizes his shortcoming and the problems he caused.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Alistair can stick himself on a pike for trying to kill the greatest hero Ferelden has ever known

Who was responsible for the complete defeat at Ostagar, the king's death, the near complete destruction of the Wardens and the near demise of his oh so beloved Fereldan. Come on mate, it's obvious he's done more harm than good.

You are massively oversimplifying.

The defeat at Ostagar was inevitable. There are too many darkspawn, as we have from Gaider and from actually watching the battle. The King's death was not entirely Loghain's fault either. Loghain seems to have annoyed Cailan not to fight on the front, which is a good idea whether or not Loghain planned to withdraw. And that's all Loghain can really do, legally. The near complete destruction of the Wardens? That was because the bulk of them were at the front, which Duncan should have pointed out was foolish. The near complete demise of Ferelden? Okay, some of the blame for that is with Loghain, since he massively failed uniting Ferelden. Teagan is also partially responsible, since he raised his objection to Loghain's actions before the Blight was settled. Accusing the main general of treason is the sort of thing you do after the darkspawn are dead.

Loghain has done things that are legitimately wrong. Ostagar is not one of them.

Except for the fact that it was treason, and he never once tried to bring up any of his points and instead did a half-assed scheme of blaming the wardens and orlais, which was only because of his own prejudice.

The king was effectively dead the moment his lines met the darkspawn. Loghain's soldiers still had a chance to gtfo.

Anyone who would rather see his country get pillaged by darkspawn than get allies from another country to help, in the crisis that has needed multiple countries untied to defeat before, should not be taken seriously.

This is a fairer criticism.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 octobre 2013 - 01:14 .

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Which Teagan objected to at rather a suboptimal time.

Because, to someone who hadn't been at Ostagar, it certainly looked like a simple coup.

Not the time to handle this.

Either way, Loghain should never have put himself into that position. He's not only a terrible politician, he evidently doesn't recognize his own shortcomings.

Statesmanship and Tactical genius don't often go together

[Xilizhra]

His speech before his sacerfice does show he recognizes his shortcoming and the problems he caused.

Yes... much, much too late to be helpful.

Statesmanship and Tactical genius don't often go together

And it baffles me that he thought he was capable of running Ferelden.
I'm not denying that Loghain is an excellent general. In fact, as you said, it's probably one of the things that makes him so bad at politics.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 octobre 2013 - 01:16 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Steelcan wrote...

Accepting help from a known enemy who is known to have ambitions of retaking your alnd is not a good idea. 

There's worse things than being conquered by Orlais. Not many, mind you, but the Blight is at the top of the list.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Statesmanship and Tactical genius don't often go together

And it baffles me that he thought he was capable of running Ferelden.
I'm not denying that Loghain is an excellent general. In fact, as you said, it's probably one of the things that makes him so bad at politics.

He did seem to think he was running an army of unquestioning soldiers when he addressed the Landsmeet after Ostagar.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Steelcan wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

He did imprison his daughter, the queen, in order to run her country though. And refuged to accept any aide when it was obviously needed against the darkspawn. And was more than incompetent in his time running his so called beloved country by having his diplomacy be in the form of a giant metal fist to the face.

Then there's allowing tevinter to kdinap fereldan citizens for new slaves in exchange for funds, ignoring the massive undermining of his country authority to their former rulers, along with hiring a blood mage to poison the arl of redcliffe and thus led to the entire forces being unsalvagable for the war against the darkspawn instead of simply having him, I don't know, take conner hostage and force the arl's alligance in the crisis. Than there's the blatent throwing out of laws governing the land in order to allow a illegal slaughter of the cousland bloodline by howe in a power grab. Allowing howe to run the state in every matter loghian did not, and not allowing his daughter to run anything.

He's basically a really dumb person whose suppose to represent a pragmatist, but is just a incompentent arse in execution.

Accepting help from a known enemy who is known to have ambitions of retaking your alnd is not a good idea. 

Letting the Tevinters kidnap elves was extreme but he needed money, not defending it, just saying there was a rationale however deplorable. 

He wouldn't be the first to try and take out his opposition with assassination.

I don't see how "there was a rationale" is a defense for slave trading, but looking at a situation like the one involving darkspawn massing in large numbers and employing coordinated tactics can easily be dismissed as "not a blight" and that rekindling a war with orlais is more important.

For someone whose suppose to be about grey morality and doing what was best for the country, loghian jsut seems to want another war with the frenchy mask wearers and is willing to let the entire backbone of his country get figuratively and in some cases literally raped by the darkspawn if it means he can focus all his time on the "true" enemy.

Why didn't he ever try to, say, reason with the grey wardens? Tried to explain to them that calians strategy was flawed and it lead to him and his orders downfall? That now was the time to regroup and think of a new plan, and temporarliy make peace in order to ensure his country survived.

But no, that would be too smart for military man loghian to think up. So sending groups of armed men to demand everyone help him just because was the route he took, that and saying that if any grey wardens or orlesians crossed the border he would kill them all.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 20 octobre 2013 - 01:21 .