986 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

DuskWanderer wrote...

Careful you don't misstep, friend, and how quickly you forget Liara is romanceable by both genders. You would actually have to compare the number of people that are actually capable of romancing them (and of course, imports) 

FemShep is only picked by 1/3 of players, but Garrus has how many compared to Liara? He's only got a third of the chances. Ditto with Tali and Ashley....
 

I agree, even with the stuff I cut. the data is never as cut and dry as it appears. You can't just give a bunch of statistics as though each of the characters have had the same level of chance as the other. Liara has had multiple advantages in the game compared to every other squadmate.  Her only disadvantage is ME2 and even then one can maintain their relationship with her or rekindle it at the start of ME3.  My male Shepard can't even romance Kaidan in ME1 or ME2 and on top of that I can't even recruit him in ME2 and in ME3 I can't keep him as a squad mate until the second half of the game. I don't see how that is a fair comparison to  Liara or Garrus.

[Han Shot First]

Ah, the BSN...

When confronted with poll results that disagree with your viewpoint, simply bury your head in the sand and claim the results are flawed. I see nothing as changed from March of 2012 when some people were saying the poll results indicating a large percentage of the fanbase was unhappy with the endings was inaccurate.

Carry on BSN. All is well!

[SlottsMachine]

All polls are crap.

[SlottsMachine]

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

We're at a very ridiculous point if we're pretending the mere existence of a character in a scene is somehow a problem.

You need to lighten up

Playing DA:O will help with that. 

[Barquiel]

DuskWanderer wrote...
All of these factors lead me to believe that all four of them (Garrus, Tali, Ashley, and Kaidan) are more often picked than Liara. Raw numbers may support her, but she has more options to be romanced then the other four. 

It is strictly the raw numbers that are relevant to the issue. For all we know, there are more players who romanced Liara than any other character in the series. But even if we assume Garrus is more popular as a femShep romance...do you really think he would surpass Liara if Bioware had made him bi? And Liara has twice as many votes as the second most popular romance in this survey. Even if you remove the FemShep votes...she would still be the most popular choice.

DuskWanderer wrote...
What do you call the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC? Or all the constant moments she was given over the course of the series. if you don't consider it writer bias, what do you consider it? 

Bioware created LotSB due to fan demand for Liara (as stated in several interviews)...and not because Patrick Weekes liked writing Liara's story more than anyone else's. They deemed the Liara/Shadow Broker arc good DLC material and decided to cash in (the sales proved they were right). That could be considered a smart financial decision...

DuskWanderer wrote...
What are you attempting to prove with this? In addition to Liara being required for missions (thus, driving up her numbers), I think people just tend to pick the ones they know. Also, you very quickly discount the fact that Ash/Kaidan isn't around for half the game. I'm also pretty sure most people pick the missions like the Sanctum lab as soon as they get them. In that case, you'd only have a few missions left with Ash/Kaidan around. 

That's why I posted the Leviathan DLC survey. Every squadmate is available and has the same amount of content in the DLC. Look at the numbers. 

The VS is available for Mars, the Ardat-Yakshi Monastery, Gellix, the Rannoch arc, Thessia, Horizon, Cerberus Headquarters, Earth and some side missions. I think that's more than 50% of the game. But even if we are generous and double their numbers...they would still be the least popular squadmates. As for Liara, DLC missions are obviously excluded from the Pax Statistics (no Javik). On Menae, once you meet Garrus, he's forced on you from that point through the rest of the mission and Liara goes back to the Normandy. That leaves Mars and Thessia...two missions (not to mention that other characters have also a forced mission).

DuskWanderer wrote...
She doesn't do that: Shepard gets data from the Eden Prime labs (through aid of the Cypher) and figures out how to open it. All Liara says is that the pod was damaged, which she gathered from a few taps on her omni-tool. Given that Liara has as much experience with Prothean cryo-stasis as anyone else (to say, none), I'm still not certain why they forced her on us. Other than for us to shill her.

The Alliance tells you Cerberus has uncovered a major Prothean artifact on Eden Prime. Maybe it's wise to bring a prothean expert? I haven't played From Ashes, but seems like the logical thing to do.

DuskWanderer wrote...
The fact that she's shoehorned everywhere as Shepard's friend when it's wholly irrelevant to the narrative. Whoever thought of that was the one that worshipped her.

Show me one scene in ME3 where she's "shoehorned as Shepard's friend".

DuskWanderer wrote...
What would you call it if not favoritism? As much as I like Jack in ME3, she has the very real possibility of not being there. Ditto with Garrus.

Garrus has the very real possibility of not being there because he was already a permanent squadmate in ME2 (unlike Liara). But he ends up with just as much content than the unkillable, non-optional squadmates in ME3. He has more screentime than any other character in the series. But it's Liara who is the writer's pet? Anyway, Bioware put more effort into Liara and Garrus than any other character because they have huge fanbases. Unpopular characters end up as named Banshees...or dump Shepard. It's absurd to assume Liara has a lot of content because Mac Walters and/or some other developers are big Liara fans.

Modifié par Barquiel, 11 octobre 2013 - 09:11 .

[Han Shot First]

Barquiel wrote...


Garrus has the very real possibility of not being there because he was already a permanent squadmate in ME2 (unlike Liara). But he ends up with just as much content than the unkillable, non-optional squadmates in ME3. He has more screentime than any other character in the series. But it's Liara who is the writer's pet? Anyway, Bioware put more effort into Liara and Garrus than any other character because they have huge fanbases. Unpopular characters end up as named Banshees...or dump Shepard. It's absurd to assume Liara has a lot of content because Mac Walters and/or some other developers are big Liara fans.

The bolded bit is the real reason why Liara got so much content. Its no coincidence that the two most popular squadmates of the series also got the most amount of content in Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 11 octobre 2013 - 05:36 .

[dreamgazer]

Only one of Mass Effect's characters has had a cameo on Big Bang Theory, in case you need some proof of the "popularity" outside the BSN.

[Steelcan]

Now I hate Liara, like a lot, but it makes sense that she gets more content. I don't like it, but it makes sense.

[DuskWanderer]

Barquiel wrote...

It is strictly the raw numbers that are relevant to the issue. For all we know, there are more players who romanced Liara than any other character in the series. But even if we assume Garrus is more popular as a femShep romance...do you really think he would surpass Liara if Bioware had made him bi? And Liara has twice as many votes as the second most popular romance in this survey. Even if you remove the FemShep votes...she would still be the most popular choice.

I'm sorry, Barquiel, but no, she wouldn't. Your own data disproves it: Liara is an available choice for 100% of characters, Kaidan is only available for 25%. Raw numbers are only unilateral if the raw numbers are the same for all. What you'd really have to do to find out who was the most popular romance is to take the amount of times in which picking that character is an option for romance (the denominator), and then seeing how many made the choice to pick that specific one. 

Garrus (and Kaidan) had about roughly 1/3 of the choices Liara did, but Garrus was only an option for 1/3 of players. Kaidan was only an option for 1/4 of players.  By the fractions, we see that, while Liara had higher raw numbers, Garrus and Kaidan were picked more often when they were available choices. 

I'll concede Tali, she comes close, but doesn't quite reach it, but not Ashley, as she has two fractions. One, she's only available for men, and two, she's only available when she is the VS. Both fractions drive down her denominator, and make her fraction greater than Liara. 

EDIT: Sorry, missed the part about bi-Garrus. I'm not sure, to tell the truth. Liara was presented as bi from the beginning, Garrus was not. I'm not sure it would have gone over well. I don't remember it going over well with Kaidan, I remember people complaining about that. I'll just stick with the data I provided. 

Bioware created LotSB due to fan demand for Liara (as stated in several interviews)...and not because Patrick Weekes liked writing Liara's story more than anyone else's. They deemed the Liara/Shadow Broker arc good DLC material and decided to cash in (the sales proved they were right). That could be considered a smart financial decision...

I really have nothing to argue against this: I actually see more people cheer the Tela Vasir boss battle rather then Liara, but that has nothing to do with why they created it. I'll concede this point.

That's why I posted the Leviathan DLC survey. Every squadmate is available and has the same amount of content in the DLC. Look at the numbers.  

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The Leviathan DLC is available the second you return from Palaven, you can complete it before the Cerberus coup. It may also explain Tali's low numbers (and Javik's high numbers). If you are telling me that everyone waits until after Priority: Citadel II to play it, please provide a source. 

The VS is available for Mars, the Ardat-Yakshi Monastery, Gellix, the Rannoch arc, Thessia, Horizon, Cerberus Headquarters, Earth and some side missions. I think that's more than 50% of the game. But even if we are generous and double their numbers...they would still be the least popular squadmates. As for Liara, DLC missions are obviously excluded from the Pax Statistics (no Javik). On Menae, once you meet Garrus, he's forced on you from that point through the rest of the mission and Liara goes back to the Normandy. That leaves Mars and Thessia...two missions (not to mention that other characters have also a forced mission).

I'm sorry, but you are still ignoring the fact that Liara is still required for three missions, which will drive her numbers up more for each person that plays it. The VS is required for one. Each player that plays through the game gives two extra points to Liara. 

Further, you also ignored the statement that people usually play missions as soon as they get them. 

Thirdly, and I'm sorry that I have to keep repeating myself, but you are using nothing but raw numbers, without taking into effect that Ashley and Kaidan are not available in some games, and thus, cannot be selected. That will drive their numbers down. 

If we only went on the PAX statistics, correct multiplication to account for their lack of time in the game would put Ashley and Kaidan on the level of Vega. Tali would be on the level of Liara. Garrus would be superior due to only being around for one mission.  Liara would go massively down. 

The Alliance tells you Cerberus has uncovered a major Prothean artifact on Eden Prime. Maybe it's wise to bring a prothean expert? I haven't played From Ashes, but seems like the logical thing to do.

Isn't that why you're sending Shepard, who has the Prothean Cypher and is actually capable of understanding their language? 

Show me one scene in ME3 where she's "shoehorned as Shepard's friend".

I will give you more than one: 

Her introduction, where you must be friendly to her (ME2's is worse, but you asked for ME3. Just check Shepard's voice inflection if you don't believe it's shoehorned that they are friends)
She comes up twice to your cabin without being invited instead of using the comm
Pre-EC, the fact that Liara is your last thought unless you romanced Ashley or Kaidan (I don't know if she's there if you don't romance anyone after the EC came on. Can anyone answer that?)
The fact that you must laugh to her flirting if she comes to get you on the Citadel DLC. (It's worse if you're romancing someone else) 
After Priority: Thessia, you don't get to side with Javik about Liara's temper tantrum (you only get to say he's right, but then, after that, you have to either tell him to lay off, or justify her behavior as saying she's having a bad day) 

Garrus has the very real possibility of not being there because he was already a permanent squadmate in ME2 (unlike Liara). But he ends up with just as much content than the unkillable, non-optional squadmates in ME3. He has more screentime than any other character in the series. But it's Liara who is the writer's pet? Anyway, Bioware put more effort into Liara and Garrus than any other character because they have huge fanbases. Unpopular characters end up as named Banshees...or dump Shepard. It's absurd to assume Liara has a lot of content because Mac Walters and/or some other developers are big Liara fans.

Tali has a huge fanbase and she doesn't have a lot of content in ME3. Aria has a huge fanbase and she doesn't have a lot of content (in vanilla ME3, at least). Kal'Reegar has a lot of fans and he doesn't have a lot of content. Kirrahe spawned meme after meme and he doesn't have a lot of content. Harbinger has a lot of fans and he didn't get a lot of content. 

I really could do this all day. 


Also, if you'll allow me a personal note. We disagree, but you are incredibly polite and your posts are easy to follow, Barquiel. I don't agree with you for reasons stated, but I respect you. Just thought you'd like to know that. 

Modifié par DuskWanderer, 11 octobre 2013 - 09:32 .

[Hazegurl]

Steelcan wrote...

Now I hate Liara, like a lot, but it makes sense that she gets more content. I don't like it, but it makes sense.

I agree, I hate the polls and still don't see them as 100% accurate considering all the variables that go into them. However, it is widely known that Liara and Garrus are big fan faves and therefore Bioware will pander to that audience more than any other. It sucks that even the VS gets shafted in favor of them but it is what it is.  I just wish that Bioware didn't send Liara to Shep's room all the time or force her to come to Thessia, or force Shepard into acting like losing Thessia was the greatest failure of his life, or have Shepard hug Liara in ME2. They could have still had given Liara more content (even if it doesn't make sense depending on the player) without forcing Shepard's hand.  

[dreamgazer]

StreetMagic wrote...

It doesn't matter if you're going to give that benefit of the doubt. That you're willing to acknowledge her importance - even if it's just slightly. There are Liara fans who think even that isn't enough. It's black or white. You must acknowledge nothing short of Liara's (or rather the fanbase's) total dominance over everyone else's game experience. And you must like it. It's like a game in and of itself. A competition. And they already won. Now it's just a time for gloating.

Anyone competing in some such "game", no matter which side they're on, has already lost. 

[Hazegurl]

I remember playing ME3 first before even coming to these boards cause I didn't want to be spoiled and I couldn't help but think "who the heck is this blue alien chick sniffing around Shep's room? I'm playing to romance a guy." lol!

Then I played ME2 and did the story intro (ME1 wasn't out on PS3 yet) and noticed the different descriptions for Kaidan, Ashley, and Liara and shrugged while picking Kaidan to live and romancing no one. I thought it was strange that my Shep was hugging and sighing all over the blue alien chick.

Then I played ME1 and the rest together, a full trilogy run and thought, geez this blue alien chick is pushy! lol

Who knew she was a "goddess" within the fandom. Ah, the BSN.  I almost regret coming here.

[rashie]

Hazegurl wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Now I hate Liara, like a lot, but it makes sense that she gets more content. I don't like it, but it makes sense.

I agree, I hate the polls and still don't see them as 100% accurate considering all the variables that go into them. However, it is widely known that Liara and Garrus are big fan faves and therefore Bioware will pander to that audience more than any other. It sucks that even the VS gets shafted in favor of them but it is what it is.  I just wish that Bioware didn't send Liara to Shep's room all the time or force her to come to Thessia, or force Shepard into acting like losing Thessia was the greatest failure of his life, or have Shepard hug Liara in ME2. They could have still had given Liara more content (even if it doesn't make sense depending on the player) without forcing Shepard's hand.  

It was not the fall of Thessia that bothered him/her, it was Cerberus managing to steal the "catalyst" while they where in the very same room effectively dooming the completion of the Crucible , if it had been a regular mission instead with a success i.e extract some important people Shepards reaction would have been similar to menae afterwards.

[DuskWanderer]

rashie wrote...

It was not the fall of Thessia that bothered him/her, it was Cerberus managing to steal the "catalyst" while they where in the very same room effectively dooming the completion of the Crucible , if it had been a regular mission instead with a success i.e extract some important people Shepards reaction would have been similar to menae afterwards.

Sorry, but I can't agree with that. Shepard actually never mentions Cerberus at all: Garrus and Kaidan do, but Shepard doesn't. He references Thessia directly with Joker, with Tevos, and with Javik. 

It really does feel like we're shoehorned that Thessia is the worst thing that could ever happen. 

[Han Shot First]

Hazegurl wrote...

 or force Shepard into acting like losing Thessia was the greatest failure of his life

It was the greatest failure of his life.

Shepard reacts the way he does not because he cares more about Thessia than Earth or Palaven, but because he was facing the very real possibility that Cerberus had managed to sabotage the Crucible project, dooming the entire war effort. The weight of the trillions of lives at stake and the potential cost of his failure was pressing down on him.

I get that some people don't like Shepard's reaction with Joker or Tevos because it involves autodialogue, and they'd rather their character was an unflappable stoic, but the reaction itself is often misunderstood by people on the BSN. Its not about Thessia, its about being defeated and the cost of that defeat potentially being the annihilation of galactic civilization.

[dreamgazer]

Han Shot First wrote...

Shepard reacts the way he does not because he cares more about Thessia than Earth or Palaven, but because he was facing the very real possibility that Cerberus had managed to sabotage the Crucible project, dooming the entire war effort. The weight of the trillions of lives at stake and the potential cost of his failure was pressing down on him.

I get that some people don't like Shepard's reaction with Joker or Tevos because it involves autodialogue, and they'd rather their character was an unflappable stoic, but the reaction itself is often misunderstood by people on the BSN. Its not about Thessia, its about being defeated and the cost of that defeat potentially being the annihilation of galactic civilization.

Accurate. 

[P. Domi]

Han Shot First wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

 or force Shepard into acting like losing Thessia was the greatest failure of his life

It was the greatest failure of his life.

Shepard reacts the way he does not because he cares more about Thessia than Earth or Palaven, but because he was facing the very real possibility that Cerberus had managed to sabotage the Crucible project, dooming the entire war effort. The weight of the trillions of lives at stake and the potential cost of his failure was pressing down on him.

I get that some people don't like Shepard's reaction with Joker or Tevos because it involves autodialogue, and they'd rather their character was an unflappable stoic, but the reaction itself is often misunderstood by people on the BSN. Its not about Thessia, its about being defeated and the cost of that defeat potentially being the annihilation of galactic civilization.

This is correct, and he also mentions he's "sick of Cerberus beating us to the punch"
Skip to 41:25

Modifié par pablodomi, 12 octobre 2013 - 05:27 .

[Iakus]

Except Shepard ends up acting like if they had stopped Kai Leng and gotten teh beacon themselves, this wold have magically stopped the Reapers then and there.

Thessia was about to fall no matter what Shep did.

[DuskWanderer]

iakus wrote...

Except Shepard ends up acting like if they had stopped Kai Leng and gotten teh beacon themselves, this wold have magically stopped the Reapers then and there.

Thessia was about to fall no matter what Shep did.

This is true, but the other side does have a point with this one. Even if Thessia fell, if they had the Catalyst, they'd just be rushing for time. 

However, even the "It's about Cerberus" side has to admit that the conversations with Tevos, Joker, Javik and everyone else had problems, and greatly ran under the assumption that Thessia was assumed to have more impact. 

[dgcatanisiri]

iakus wrote...

Except Shepard ends up acting like if they had stopped Kai Leng and gotten teh beacon themselves, this wold have magically stopped the Reapers then and there.

Thessia was about to fall no matter what Shep did.

Hell, Thessia was lost the minute the Reapers landed. The way that Shepard talks all through Thessia is that 'if we get this artifact, we've won,' and that's just plain stupid and proven as such with just a minimum of thought - if it were some magic 'I win' bomb, why would Shepard need to recover it in the first place? Why not have the asari simply activate it themselves? So it has to be something that would at best need to be incorporated into something bigger, which would take time. Meanwhile, there is a full scale Reaper invasion on Thessia, with multiple Sovereign class Reapers wandering around. Thessia fell to the Reapers the minute they started landing, which was well before Shepard even arrived.

And yet, Shepard blames themselves for Thessia's loss. Not the loss of the data, not Cerberus getting the best of them, for losing Thessia. The loss of Thessia, however, was in no way affected by Shepard's involvement one way or the other.

[AlexMBrennan]

The way that Shepard talks all through Thessia is that 'if we get this artifact, we've won,' and that's just plain stupid and proven as such with just a minimum of thought

Except that it's possible to win (or lose) the war without it being immediately over - the beacon on Thessia was thought to contain the missing piece needed to complete the Crucible, so that speech makes a certain amount of sense.

And yet, Shepard blames themselves for Thessia's loss.

I more got the impression that Shepard blamed themselves for getting beaten by Kai Lame. Again. But yeah, that scene lacks the option to call out the Councillor for hiding data vital to the war effort until it was already too late.

[Hazegurl]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

iakus wrote...

Except Shepard ends up acting like if they had stopped Kai Leng and gotten teh beacon themselves, this wold have magically stopped the Reapers then and there.

Thessia was about to fall no matter what Shep did.

Hell, Thessia was lost the minute the Reapers landed. The way that Shepard talks all through Thessia is that 'if we get this artifact, we've won,' and that's just plain stupid and proven as such with just a minimum of thought - if it were some magic 'I win' bomb, why would Shepard need to recover it in the first place? Why not have the asari simply activate it themselves? So it has to be something that would at best need to be incorporated into something bigger, which would take time. Meanwhile, there is a full scale Reaper invasion on Thessia, with multiple Sovereign class Reapers wandering around. Thessia fell to the Reapers the minute they started landing, which was well before Shepard even arrived.

And yet, Shepard blames themselves for Thessia's loss. Not the loss of the data, not Cerberus getting the best of them, for losing Thessia. The loss of Thessia, however, was in no way affected by Shepard's involvement one way or the other.

Right, I guess one can see it as Shepard being angry about both Cerberus beating them and Thessia.  But I got the impression that Shepard feels he could have done something about Thessia and that is what he was angry about. He even blows up at Joker about the Asari dying with no way for the player to back out.   You can only lighten the mood after the fact.

[Xilizhra]

I more got the impression that Shepard blamed themselves for getting beaten by Kai Lame. Again. But yeah, that scene lacks the option to call out the Councillor for hiding data vital to the war effort until it was already too late.

Probably because there's no proof that she hid anything.

He even blows up at Joker about the Asari dying with no way for the player to back out.

Not nearly enough.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 octobre 2013 - 01:52 .