986 réponses à ce sujet

[Kataphrut94]

See, I've never romanced her so I don't really have those problems. It's also why I find the other common complaint about her (being the 'forced' or 'canon' love interest) laughable. To me, she's just a friend and I see no problem with how she's portrayed. She is a bit of a 'chick' compared to most of the characters, but that's fine; if everyone was a Garrus-esque unflappable badass, it would just be boring.

[RZIBARA]

not everyone likes her being a friend. Especially when you could be rude to her in the first game

[Sir DeLoria]

The only scene where I was creeped out by Liara was when I found Shep's burned and twisted armor on display at her apartment. Fresh of his mangled body.

[Neria Rose]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

OT: I wish that people would stop this nonsense about Liara somehow being a stalker. I don't even know what she's done to get that reputation, but the worst people seem to bring up is her going up to Shepard's cabin a couple of times to chat. Umm...if that's your idea of 'stalking', then that reflects worse on you than it does her.

Her coming to the cabin when she could either use a comm or relay the info through EDI is severely annoying. But she comes off as stalkerish when you discover Shepard's old armor on display in her apartment and that the excuse she gives for fetching Shepard's corpse is that she "couldn't let go" (which is particularly jarring for a Shepard like mine, who picked her up dead last and interacted with her absolutely no more than necessary).

Modifié par Neria Rose, 13 octobre 2013 - 09:45 .

[Wynterdust]

Kind of agree, she just comes off as a loyal friend to me. Never seen anything in the trilogy that would suggest she's a stalker in any way.
At the end of the day, you save her life so she's going to be grateful for that and consider you someone she can trust. It's only natural that she would be sad over the loss of someone that previously saved her life.

Modifié par Wynterdust, 13 octobre 2013 - 09:47 .

[Han Shot First]

TheMyron wrote...

Liara is actually part of Leng's excuse for winning on Thessia, he would not have been able to throw someone like Garrus or Vega.

Considering that he picks up Liara by the neck, one handed, and tosses her about 20 feet through the air like she were made of paper...I'd say he would have been able to also toss Garrus or Vega.

In the real world it simply isn't possible to do that to another person, even if she only weighs 115 lbs (52 kg). That was full-on cybernetic robot-strength dude.

[TheMyron]

Han Shot First wrote...

TheMyron wrote...

Liara is actually part of Leng's excuse for winning on Thessia, he would not have been able to throw someone like Garrus or Vega.

Considering that he picks up Liara by the neck, one handed, and tosses her about 20 feet through the air like she were made of paper...I'd say he would have been able to also toss Garrus or Vega.

In the real world it simply isn't possible to do that to another person, even if she only weighs 115 lbs (52 kg). That was full-on cybernetic robot-strength dude.

True, but then again it could be that the molecular density of the Asari is even lower than human females.

[Kataphrut94]

Neria Rose wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

OT: I wish that people would stop this nonsense about Liara somehow being a stalker. I don't even know what she's done to get that reputation, but the worst people seem to bring up is her going up to Shepard's cabin a couple of times to chat. Umm...if that's your idea of 'stalking', then that reflects worse on you than it does her.

Her coming to the cabin when she could either use a comm or relay the info through EDI is severely annoying. But she comes off as stalkerish when you discover Shepard's old armor on display in her apartment and that the excuse she gives for fetching Shepard's corpse is that she "couldn't let go" (which is particularly jarring for a Shepard like mine, who picked her up dead last and interacted with her absolutely no more than necessary).

Picking up the armour is a bit of a weird one, but I tend to pool that in with the general awfulness of the 'Shepard dies' subplot. Pretty much all the complaints about Liara seem to have stemmed from her Mass Effect 3 depiction, so I'm not too concerned with what she did beforehand. Besides, she's wasn't the only one who had a go at that armour; when Legion does it, it's cute.

As for the cabin thing, I still don't see what the problem is. She's Shepard's friend, she's not unwelcome in the captain's room.

[KR96]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Picking up the armour is a bit of a weird one, but I tend to pool that in with the general awfulness of the 'Shepard dies' subplot. Pretty much all the complaints about Liara seem to have stemmed from her Mass Effect 3 depiction, so I'm not too concerned with what she did beforehand. Besides, she's wasn't the only one who had a go at that armour; when Legion does it, it's cute.

As for the cabin thing, I still don't see what the problem is. She's Shepard's friend, she's not unwelcome in the captain's room.

Agreed. I mean, I actually liked the fact that there was a bit of personal interaction between NPC's on board. Such as Javik and James standing in the kitchen for example, it was simple, but I loved it. I would find it really strange if a 'friend' with whom I have completed a suicide mission which saved the Citadel, uses the ship's AI to pass her messages to me, instead of visiting me in person. 

[TheMyron]

I do miss the shy nerd chick she used to be.

[KR96]

TheMyron wrote...

I do miss the shy nerd chick she used to be.

Really? I thought that she pretty much was that nerd in ME3. I actually liked her better during LotSB. She wasn't such a crybaby then. After the Thessia mission I actually felt a bit of disgust over how depressed she was.  

Modifié par killerrabbit1996, 13 octobre 2013 - 11:13 .

[Skvindt]

She was kind of awkward (in a cute way) in ME1, but improved a bit in ME3. Still shy, but a little more comfortable around people.

[dgcatanisiri]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Neria Rose wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

OT: I wish that people would stop this nonsense about Liara somehow being a stalker. I don't even know what she's done to get that reputation, but the worst people seem to bring up is her going up to Shepard's cabin a couple of times to chat. Umm...if that's your idea of 'stalking', then that reflects worse on you than it does her.

Her coming to the cabin when she could either use a comm or relay the info through EDI is severely annoying. But she comes off as stalkerish when you discover Shepard's old armor on display in her apartment and that the excuse she gives for fetching Shepard's corpse is that she "couldn't let go" (which is particularly jarring for a Shepard like mine, who picked her up dead last and interacted with her absolutely no more than necessary).

Picking up the armour is a bit of a weird one, but I tend to pool that in with the general awfulness of the 'Shepard dies' subplot. Pretty much all the complaints about Liara seem to have stemmed from her Mass Effect 3 depiction, so I'm not too concerned with what she did beforehand. Besides, she's wasn't the only one who had a go at that armour; when Legion does it, it's cute.

As for the cabin thing, I still don't see what the problem is. She's Shepard's friend, she's not unwelcome in the captain's room.

With Legion, the armor is a sign of Legion's development - there's no reason for a geth to still have the armor, to not replace it, and yet Legion keeps it, a sign of how Legion is different, evolving, finding an understanding with organics. To Legion, the armor should mean nothing, and yet it does. With Liara, she holds on to Shepard's armor and practically enshrines it on display in her apartment. To Liara, regardless of her relationship status with Shepard in ME1, the armor means everything, and it's... Did you ever watch 'Hey Arnold,' how Helga would make a shrine of Arnold out of chewing gum and various other things? She hid it away from prying eyes in the back of her closet, with the fact that, even though it was played for laughs, she did this being a sign of how messed up she was. Liara does this and Shepard literally can't be creeped out. Can't find it unsettling. Can't find it off-putting. There is no option to display any bit of discomfort with it.

And for me, my issues with Liara stem from how she takes responsibility for giving Cerberus Shepard's body. This hits my bodily autonomy buttons. To say the least, I am VERY uncomfortable with her doing this. It's... I believe in DNRs. There are many people in the world who do. So to have someone who is portrayed as Shepard's friend disregard what Shepard may have wanted, not to mention to not even have the subject brought up in the first place, is very disturbing to me, and yet the game proceeds under the impression that everyone, Shepard included, is perfectly fine with the whole 'resurrection' thing. They make Miranda regret wanting to put a control chip in Shepard's head and asking for Shepard's forgiveness for it, for wanting it, but Shepard and Liara never get to discuss the fact that it's entirely possible that Shepard would not have wanted to be brought back from the dead? The impression that I get from the game is that I am supposed to view Liara doing this as an implicitly good and proper thing, and I vehemently do not.

As a result of that, I DON'T consider her a close friend. I DO get uncomfortable with how close she gets. This is why I complain about the cabin stuff - it's not that she's coming uninvited, though that is part of it. It's what happens when she does. When she comes to the cabin, she brings with her conversations that allow Shepard to be vulnerable, to express their emotions, to let go of the mask of 'the commander' and be human. These conversations are optional, yes, but they have no counterparts. If you are romancing Garrus, Tali, Ashley, or Kaidan, they never come up to the cabin to discuss these things. And, of course, there's the Miranda, Jack, Thane, and Jacob romancers who are **** out of luck entirely. If we want an opportunity to show Shepard's vulnerability, to have a chance to stretch out role-playing muscles and talk about what it is we want Shepard to be thinking, these conversations HAVE to happen with Liara and Liara alone. These conversations may make no sense to be taking place with Liara for the Shepard we've created, but if they don't happen with her, they don't happen at all. And that is a problem.

[Hazegurl]

StreetMagic wrote...

Her relationship parameters are sort of self-contained, for each game. They keep reintroducing the window with her, and it inadvertertently comes off like she's a character who doesn't either have a good memory or doesn't take no for an answer.

This is the biggest issue I have with Liara. The window keeps opening long after I have closed it so it seems like I have to keep on closing the window over and over again. Her character can come across as quite obsessive too, esp. with the whole armor thing.

dgcatanisiri

As a result of that, I DON'T consider her a close friend. I DO get uncomfortable with how close she gets. This is why I complain about the cabin stuff - it's not that she's coming uninvited, though that is part of it. It's what happens when she does. When she comes to the cabin, she brings with her conversations that allow Shepard to be vulnerable, to express their emotions, to let go of the mask of 'the commander' and be human. These conversations are optional, yes, but they have no counterparts. If you are romancing Garrus, Tali, Ashley, or Kaidan, they never come up to the cabin to discuss these things. And, of course, there's the Miranda, Jack, Thane, and Jacob romancers who are **** out of luck entirely. If we want an opportunity to show Shepard's vulnerability, to have a chance to stretch out role-playing muscles and talk about what it is we want Shepard to be thinking, these conversations HAVE to happen with Liara and Liara alone. These conversations may make no sense to be taking place with Liara for the Shepard we've created, but if they don't happen with her, they don't happen at all. And that is a problem.

I agree. Another example is the meet up at the Citadel. Even as a friend it seems too intimate imo, sharing secrets no one else knows etc. I had a play through where I wanted Liara as a friend. I didn't want to tell her to keep it professional like I did in my other play throughs. But the line she says after agreeing to be her friend was a bit too much for me considering the fact that my Shep was romancing Kaidan. It sucks that I couldn't see my Shep have that same level of intimate and vulnerable interaction with him. Bottom line if you're romancing Liara you will have a very deep and loving romantic story but most other LIs don't. You either have to head canon some stuff or take it as it is.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:33 .

[Bruce M. Shepard]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

 If you are romancing Garrus, Tali, Ashley, or Kaidan, they never come up to the cabin to discuss these things. And, of course, there's the Miranda, Jack, Thane, and Jacob romancers who are **** out of luck entirely. If we want an opportunity to show Shepard's vulnerability, to have a chance to stretch out role-playing muscles and talk about what it is we want Shepard to be thinking, these conversations HAVE to happen with Liara and Liara alone. These conversations may make no sense to be taking place with Liara for the Shepard we've created, but if they don't happen with her, they don't happen at all. And that is a problem.

hear hear.

Modifié par Matches T. Malone, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:48 .

[Xilizhra]

And for me, my issues with Liara stem from how she takes responsibility for giving Cerberus Shepard's body. This hits my bodily autonomy buttons. To say the least, I am VERY uncomfortable with her doing this. It's... I believe in DNRs. There are many people in the world who do. So to have someone who is portrayed as Shepard's friend disregard what Shepard may have wanted, not to mention to not even have the subject brought up in the first place, is very disturbing to me, and yet the game proceeds under the impression that everyone, Shepard included, is perfectly fine with the whole 'resurrection' thing. They make Miranda regret wanting to put a control chip in Shepard's head and asking for Shepard's forgiveness for it, for wanting it, but Shepard and Liara never get to discuss the fact that it's entirely possible that Shepard would not have wanted to be brought back from the dead? The impression that I get from the game is that I am supposed to view Liara doing this as an implicitly good and proper thing, and I vehemently do not.

If your Shepard would rather die than help save the galaxy--and moreover, be annoyed at someone for ensuring the latter--they'd never have been Shepard in the first place. So, unfortunately, I cannot see this as valid.

[Barquiel]

Xilizhra wrote...

And for me, my issues with Liara stem from how she takes responsibility for giving Cerberus Shepard's body. This hits my bodily autonomy buttons. To say the least, I am VERY uncomfortable with her doing this. It's... I believe in DNRs. There are many people in the world who do. So to have someone who is portrayed as Shepard's friend disregard what Shepard may have wanted, not to mention to not even have the subject brought up in the first place, is very disturbing to me, and yet the game proceeds under the impression that everyone, Shepard included, is perfectly fine with the whole 'resurrection' thing. They make Miranda regret wanting to put a control chip in Shepard's head and asking for Shepard's forgiveness for it, for wanting it, but Shepard and Liara never get to discuss the fact that it's entirely possible that Shepard would not have wanted to be brought back from the dead? The impression that I get from the game is that I am supposed to view Liara doing this as an implicitly good and proper thing, and I vehemently do not.

If your Shepard would rather die than help save the galaxy--and moreover, be annoyed at someone for ensuring the latter--they'd never have been Shepard in the first place. So, unfortunately, I cannot see this as valid.

This.

Not to mention that the complaint is sheer nonsense. Liara and Shepard did discuss it in ME2. Liara even talks about how ashamed she was to give Shepard's body to Cerberus and that she thought Shepard would hate her. She says she's sorry and you have two options for a response: "I'm not" or "So am I"

[dgcatanisiri]

Barquiel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And for me, my issues with Liara stem from how she takes responsibility for giving Cerberus Shepard's body. This hits my bodily autonomy buttons. To say the least, I am VERY uncomfortable with her doing this. It's... I believe in DNRs. There are many people in the world who do. So to have someone who is portrayed as Shepard's friend disregard what Shepard may have wanted, not to mention to not even have the subject brought up in the first place, is very disturbing to me, and yet the game proceeds under the impression that everyone, Shepard included, is perfectly fine with the whole 'resurrection' thing. They make Miranda regret wanting to put a control chip in Shepard's head and asking for Shepard's forgiveness for it, for wanting it, but Shepard and Liara never get to discuss the fact that it's entirely possible that Shepard would not have wanted to be brought back from the dead? The impression that I get from the game is that I am supposed to view Liara doing this as an implicitly good and proper thing, and I vehemently do not.

If your Shepard would rather die than help save the galaxy--and moreover, be annoyed at someone for ensuring the latter--they'd never have been Shepard in the first place. So, unfortunately, I cannot see this as valid.

This.

Not to mention that the complaint is sheer nonsense. Liara and Shepard did discuss it in ME2. Liara even talks about how ashamed she was to give Shepard's body to Cerberus and that she thought Shepard would hate her. She says she's sorry and you have two options for a response: "I'm not" or "So am I"

It's not about being dead over saving the galaxy. It's about bodily autonomy, about respecting someone's wishes for what they want done to and with their body. We don't just rip viable organs out of peoples' bodies when they die, despite how many lives would be saved. We make sure that those people consented to give their organs beforehand. And if they didn't consent, then we leave them be, regardless of who might be saved if we ignored that lack of consent. We respect their wishes. Likewise, with modern medical advances, we are capable of bringing people back after flat-lining, but there are plenty of people who will say that if they have flat-lined, they do not want to be brought back. Again, that desire is respected. In the medical community, an individual's desires for themselves trump whatever might come of ignoring them.

Yes, for the galaxy, Shepard being resurrected was the right thing. But for Shepard, for the individual, was being resurrected the right thing? Are they pleased to be resurrected, or do they hate the fact that someone else decided that they wanted Shepard brought back to life? We decide that for ourselves, and for me, because of influences in my life, issues that are enough a part of who I am that I can not disassociate from those feelings when creating my Shepards, I say that my Shepards don't consider it to be the right thing. If someone in my life decided to disregard my DNR, made the doctors bring me back anyway, you can bet I'd be pissed at them, and I would likely cut them out of my life as much as possible. If we had a job at the same place, I would ask that one of us be transferred, and I can reasonably expect any employer would do so, that they would acknowledge this as a valid reason to keep us separated. And yet, there's no way to transfer Liara off the Normandy. She IS on the Normandy, she IS a squadmate option, and she IS required on four missions.

And that conversation on Illium doesn't do anything to go into the issue - sure, there's anger if you take the 'so am I' option, but then, after that line or two of dialogue, it is NEVER brought up again, not to mention how it loops to the neutral 'let me know if I can help' dialogue to close out the conversation, or the never-patched bug of how, if you don't take the path to that dialogue the first time you can, it disappears forever. If it's taken, Liara doesn't reference it in LotSB in some kind 'I thought after what I told you, you'd never want to speak to me again' statement, or asking if Shepard has forgiven her. Miranda will bring up wanting to put a control chip in Shepard's head in ME3. Liara never, in LotSB or ME3, asks if Shepard has forgiven her, if Shepard is still angry with her, if Shepard would like her to leave the Normandy and avoid any awkward situations... Nothing. The game doesn't just act like these issues are being ignored, that they've put them aside for the greater good, it acts like they don't even exist. That Shepard should not be and has never been angry at her about this. But I'm plenty angry about it, and that anger comes with me when I'm playing.

[Hazegurl]

dgcatanisiri wrote...
It's not about being dead over saving the galaxy. It's about bodily autonomy, about respecting someone's wishes for what they want done to and with their body. ...

You bring up something very interesting and a missed opportunity for the writers. I remember watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the episode of her expressing her disappointment at having been brought back to life.  

Buffy quote: "Wherever I ... was ... I was happy. At peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time ... didn't mean anything ... nothing had form ... but I was still me, you know? And I was warm ... and I was loved ... and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions, or ... any of it, really ... but I think I was in heaven. And now I'm not. [near tears][/i] I was torn out of there. Pulled out ... by my friends. Everything here is ... hard, and bright, and violent. Everything I feel, everything I touch ... this is hell. Just getting through the next moment, and the one after that ... knowing what I've lost... [pause][/i] They can never know. Never"

I can sort of see this applying to your Shepard and I do think it's a shame that the writers did not take the Shepard death plot further than just a plot device. It would have been a great moment to showcase Shepard's feelings about being brought back into a world of violence to fight the Reaper threat no one prepared for when his own life was essentially  over.  I can actually understand a Shepard reaching the conclusion that the death he chose to have was taken away from him. Would they have found the Crucible without him? Yeah. Could they have united the galaxy without him? Maybe. What happens when the needs of everyone out weighs your own wishes? The writers could have reflected that a bit more, they should have given the player the option to feel raw about being brought back to keep fighting, to have issues with Liara and call her out for it and yeah, give Liara something she needed to be sorry for. 

[DuskWanderer]

Keeping someone's charred burned armor in a display case in your apartment is more than a little creepy. Even more when you pulled that armor off of the corpse yourself. Especially if you only just picked Liara up at the end of the game, jetted off to Ilos, and that was the end.

If it's not stalkerish, it's exceedingly mentally unbalanced

[Sir DeLoria]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

when Legion does it, it's cute.

Cute? That stupid robot better give me my armor back.

[Xilizhra]

It's not about being dead over saving the galaxy. It's about bodily autonomy, about respecting someone's wishes for what they want done to and with their body. We don't just rip viable organs out of peoples' bodies when they die, despite how many lives would be saved. We make sure that those people consented to give their organs beforehand. And if they didn't consent, then we leave them be, regardless of who might be saved if we ignored that lack of consent. We respect their wishes. Likewise, with modern medical advances, we are capable of bringing people back after flat-lining, but there are plenty of people who will say that if they have flat-lined, they do not want to be brought back. Again, that desire is respected. In the medical community, an individual's desires for themselves trump whatever might come of ignoring them.

I have a confession: I'm not sure if the former is a good idea. How much right does one have to dictate what's done with meat they no longer have any use for? I have fewer issues with the flatlining thing, but that's basically just saying that you're suicidal under certain circumstances.

Yes, for the galaxy, Shepard being resurrected was the right thing. But for Shepard, for the individual, was being resurrected the right thing? Are they pleased to be resurrected, or do they hate the fact that someone else decided that they wanted Shepard brought back to life? We decide that for ourselves, and for me, because of influences in my life, issues that are enough a part of who I am that I can not disassociate from those feelings when creating my Shepards, I say that my Shepards don't consider it to be the right thing. If someone in my life decided to disregard my DNR, made the doctors bring me back anyway, you can bet I'd be pissed at them, and I would likely cut them out of my life as much as possible. If we had a job at the same place, I would ask that one of us be transferred, and I can reasonably expect any employer would do so, that they would acknowledge this as a valid reason to keep us separated. And yet, there's no way to transfer Liara off the Normandy. She IS on the Normandy, she IS a squadmate option, and she IS required on four missions.

Keep in mind that you've already had a bunch of genetic enhancements as an elite Alliance soldier; Shepard's no stranger to medical operations that'd be quite alien to most of us here. Keep in mind too, that what you're asking for is, in effect, being upset that you have to save the galaxy... which is possible, I suppose, but definitely not something, I daresay, that most gamers are interested in. I don't think it's unreasonable that Shepard considers this just one more hurdle to be jumped for the greater good, like all the numerous life-threatening missions.

Buffy quote: "Wherever I ... was ... I was happy. At peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time ... didn't mean anything ... nothing had form ... but I was still me, you know? And I was warm ... and I was loved ... and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions, or ... any of it, really ... but I think I was in heaven. And now I'm not. [near tears][/i] I was torn out of there. Pulled out ... by my friends. Everything here is ... hard, and bright, and violent. Everything I feel, everything I touch ... this is hell. Just getting through the next moment, and the one after that ... knowing what I've lost... [pause][/i] They can never know. Never"

This explicitly does not happen in ME2. Shepard has no experience of being dead, only of the Normandy exploding and then immediately waking up in the Cerberus lab. Rather naturally, you can't perceive much when your brain's stopped working.

I can sort of see this applying to your Shepard and I do think it's a shame that the writers did not take the Shepard death plot further than just a plot device. It would have been a great moment to showcase Shepard's feelings about being brought back into a world of violence to fight the Reaper threat no one prepared for when his own life was essentially over. I can actually understand a Shepard reaching the conclusion that the death he chose to have was taken away from him. Would they have found the Crucible without him? Yeah. Could they have united the galaxy without him? Maybe. What happens when the needs of everyone out weighs your own wishes? The writers could have reflected that a bit more, they should have given the player the option to feel raw about being brought back to keep fighting, to have issues with Liara and call her out for it and yeah, give Liara something she needed to be sorry for.

The needs of everyone else have been outweighing your own for the entire series; it's kind of the point of heroes like this.