986 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

StreetMagic wrote...

I think the conversation could be productive if we could at least get Liara fans to acknowledge that other characters deserve more screentime. Not necessarily that Liara needs less. She doesn't really need less. Just that her presence is more noticable when there's a lack of focus on other characters (a problem I think the developers themselves tried to acknowledge and fix with the Citadel DLC). It was the last game, the last hurrah.. time to pull out the stops and have a final epic farewell, y'know? People needed to experience the series ending in various, personal ways. Not in any specific way, where their favorite elements were diminished. Liara ends up becoming a scapegoat for these complaints, when there's a lot to like about the character in isolation (to me anyways).

Then organize your compatriots to stop hating on her, and we might be able to come to some sort of accord.

[The Night Mammoth]

StreetMagic wrote...

I think the conversation could be productive if we could at least get Liara fans to acknowledge that other characters deserve more screentime.

You say that as if it'd be a difficult task and that anyone has actually tried.

[Xilizhra]

Off the top of my head, the only person who I think wants to enforce specific plot points is David (I'm referring to his whole schtick about her having instrinscally superior "characterization"). But then, I get the feeling nobody likes him, including other Liara fans. To me, Mass Effect has it's anchoring plot points, but not too many. It's more of a platform for different stories (or rather, different ways of conveying the story).

I like David. He's frequently interesting.

I'll say that I personally did not feel the need for much more character parts than I already had, and I don't really know where they'd be ideally put. I'm not necessarily averse to the idea, but, well, that.

[jtav]

Liara has what I call the "and" problem. She's a Prothean expert and the person who recovered Shepard's corpse and the Shadow Broker and Shepard's closest confidant. One or two of these is okay, but all of them smacks of Sue-dom, especially when her characterization swings wildly to accommodate the various roles and at least one of said roles could be excised from the plot with minimal impact.

[Xilizhra]

I understand your personal need, but that's kind of what I'm trying to move away from. Or rather, it's personal for each person. In order to talk about the series, you have to acknowledge different ways to playing the games, and step in other people's shoes or to have played similarly as they did.

I don't play the game in multiple ways. I have one character, and that's it. I may fiddle with the class some, but there's just one canonical character I want to use (Origins was a bit of an exception due to a great deal of wrangling on what I felt the best story would be).

Liara is all I want, or need.

[Xilizhra]

StreetMagic wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I understand your personal need, but that's kind of what I'm trying to move away from. Or rather, it's personal for each person. In order to talk about the series, you have to acknowledge different ways to playing the games, and step in other people's shoes or to have played similarly as they did.

I don't play the game in multiple ways. I have one character, and that's it. I may fiddle with the class some, but there's just one canonical character I want to use (Origins was a bit of an exception due to a great deal of wrangling on what I felt the best story would be).

Liara is all I want, or need.

That's cool. I'm kind of the same way.. almost. A little undecided on biotic characters or a soldier.

But aren't you able to step in people's shoes/brainstorm different possibilities? You seem like a..umm.. nicer person than me usually. So you're obviously capable of empathy. That's all I'm saying. It's as simple as making a list of different things others might encounter, just like if you were to brainstorm any other new idea.

I'm certainly capable of it, but when so many people are trying to bump my favorite character's position down, I'm not necessarily inclined to do so. Theoretically, I suppose we could add some kind of emotional cutscene for all squadmates? Though Butch Deadlift has that already with the N7 cutscene... Tali could stand to have more, I suppose. The Citadel meetings seem to be a good start.

[iOnlySignIn]

Necanor wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

If she actually suggested that I'd like her portrayal in ME3 a lot more, since that's actually the smart thing to do.

It's what Catwoman suggested to Batman on multiple occassions (in The Dark Knight Rises for example) and it made me like Catwoman a lot more since she cares more about the welfare of the protagonist than some laughable childish notions of heroism or justice.

Shep is a high ranking officer in the alliance and a council spectre. He has his duties, oaths and responsibilities. 

Running isn't "the smart thing to do", it's the coward's way out.

Suicide is courageous. Duty before reason.

This is the sort of thinking that started the Geth-Quarian War in ME3 which nearly wiped out both species.

[Hazegurl]

Xilizhra wrote...
This explicitly does not happen in ME2. Shepard has no experience of being dead, only of the Normandy exploding and then immediately waking up in the Cerberus lab. Rather naturally, you can't perceive much when your brain's stopped working.

The needs of everyone else have been outweighing your own for the entire series; it's kind of the point of heroes like this.

 It doesn't happen in ME2 cause the writers used Shep's death as a plot device and had no plans to actually do anything else with his death.  I'm not saying it had to be just like Buffy, he doesn't have to experience going to a heaven or anything. However, he could have expressed being at peace with how his life ended and disappointment with being thrust back into a world of violence.

The second sentence touches upon nothing I've said. I said that the writer's could have reflected that inner conflict better than what they did.  Everyone needed Buffy alive but she was going through her own inner struggle between what everyone else wanted and needed and what she wanted and needed to find peace. The same could have been done with Shepard and it probably would have been a better story because of it. The writer's chose to ignore that instead.

Mind you, my Shep's are always cool with TIM recovering his body and bringing him back to life. I just see no reason why another player is denied the chance to express the opposite.

[Xilizhra]

It's not silly at all, don't worry. Empathy is a useful thing. I'd like to make things work out better for you, but I don't really know how.

[Hazegurl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then organize your compatriots to stop hating on her, and we might be able to come to some sort of accord.

It's called having a different opinion. I doubt you love every single character in ME.

[Xilizhra]

Hazegurl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then organize your compatriots to stop hating on her, and we might be able to come to some sort of accord.

It's called having a different opinion. I doubt you love every single character in ME.

I have no grudge against any squadmate.

[Hazegurl]

Great for you then. I mean it. Just try not to get your knickers in a bunch every single time someone expresses disappointment in your favorites.

[Xilizhra]

Hazegurl wrote...

Great for you then. I mean it. Just try not to get your knickers in a bunch every single time someone expresses disappointment in your favorites.

I don't, but it's not as though I'll support you doing violence to their screentime or similar.

[KR96]

Matches T. Malone wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

 If you are romancing Garrus, Tali, Ashley, or Kaidan, they never come up to the cabin to discuss these things. And, of course, there's the Miranda, Jack, Thane, and Jacob romancers who are **** out of luck entirely. If we want an opportunity to show Shepard's vulnerability, to have a chance to stretch out role-playing muscles and talk about what it is we want Shepard to be thinking, these conversations HAVE to happen with Liara and Liara alone. These conversations may make no sense to be taking place with Liara for the Shepard we've created, but if they don't happen with her, they don't happen at all. And that is a problem.

hear hear.

Straight up answer for that is the fact that Liara can't die in ME1 or ME2. Which makes her the perfect character to be forced on Shepard by Bioware. Don't get me wrong, I like Liara and she was my main LI in my playthroughs, but I can understand why people don't like her. 

StreetMagic wrote...

I think the conversation could be productive if we could at least get Liara fans to acknowledge that other characters deserve more screentime. Not necessarily that Liara needs less. She doesn't really need less. Just that her presence is more noticable when there's a lack of focus on other characters (a problem I think the developers themselves tried to acknowledge and fix with the Citadel DLC). It was the last game, the last hurrah.. time to pull out the stops and have a final epic farewell, y'know? People needed to experience the series ending in various, personal ways. Not in any specific way, where their favorite elements were diminished. Liara ends up becoming a scapegoat for these complaints, when there's a lot to like about the character in isolation (to me anyways).

I agree with you. I liked Liara's part in ME3, but was devastated when my other favourite female NPC, Miranda, got such a minor role. She, like Liara and a hell of a lot of other characters, has a lot of potential to become an important part of the story. In truth, all she ever does is show up from time to time to talk for two minutes and appear at Horizon. 

The only character I felt got a decent role other than Liara was Garrus. Tali was just about surivable as well, if she wasn't your favourite character.

Modifié par killerrabbit1996, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:09 .

[Hazegurl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Great for you then. I mean it. Just try not to get your knickers in a bunch every single time someone expresses disappointment in your favorites.

I don't, but it's not as though I'll support you doing violence to their screentime or similar.

How can one "do violence to their screen time"?

[Barquiel]

StreetMagic wrote...

I think the conversation could be productive if we could at least get Liara fans to acknowledge that other characters deserve more screentime. Not necessarily that Liara needs less. She doesn't really need less. Just that her presence is more noticable when there's a lack of focus on other characters (a problem I think the developers themselves tried to acknowledge and fix with the Citadel DLC). It was the last game, the last hurrah.. time to pull out the stops and have a final epic farewell, y'know? People needed to experience the series ending in various, personal ways. Not in any specific way, where their favorite elements were diminished. Liara ends up becoming a scapegoat for these complaints, when there's a lot to like about the character in isolation (to me anyways).

I don't know a single person who thinks that a named Banshee was a great conclusion to Morinth's story.
I think we can all agree that there is no excuse for the poor handling of Jacobs romance in ME3.
I'd have loved to have Grunt, Samara and Mordin back as squadmates...

But Bioware has simply created too many squadmates and romances in the first two games. 17 squadmates, 10 romances (and they created even more romances in ME3). Then they wrote themselves into a corner with ME2. The writers themselves actually admitted that in hindsight a suicide mission in the middle of the triology was a rather bad idea. It was inevitable that fans would feel shafted when it became apparent that their romance didn't get the attention it deserved. Having fewer romances and a smaller cast would have been better, for everyone imo.


And sorry, but complaining that Liara saved Shepard's body from the collectors is still absurd...considering the alternatives.

[rashie]

Hazegurl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Great for you then. I mean it. Just try not to get your knickers in a bunch every single time someone expresses disappointment in your favorites.

I don't, but it's not as though I'll support you doing violence to their screentime or similar.

How can one "do violence to their screen time"?

Punch the monitor when a certain character appear?

[Steelcan]

Hazegurl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then organize your compatriots to stop hating on her, and we might be able to come to some sort of accord.

It's called having a different opinion. I doubt you love every single character in ME.

Death to the blueberry