986 réponses à ce sujet

[Rusty Sandusky]

This thread, it's been places.

[Hazegurl]

I didn't mind the tutorial with Liara but the Alenko comment was annoying after I played ME1 and ME2 back to back.

Liara was actually funny and sweet in ME1. The only thing that got to me was how pushy bioware made her and the bug forcing me to replay certain parts of ME1 when I wanted to go straight into ME2 did not help.

[TheMyron]

ThisOnesUsername wrote...

This thread, it's been places.

Is your avatar Gary Busey?

[TheMyron]

StreetMagic wrote...

BTW, I think I'm being pretty objective here. I don't even like Alenko that much. He's alright, but I'm not the biggest fan (no offense).. but even I can see how lame this comes off.

I just can't get myself to kill a girl, so I always leave Kaiden behind.

[Rusty Sandusky]

TheMyron wrote...

ThisOnesUsername wrote...

This thread, it's been places.

Is your avatar Gary Busey?

Yeparoonies.

[Hazegurl]

Wow, that's sad that someone thinks a game character is a better alternative to real love. I agree, none of the romance threads and forums and character discussion threads wouldn't be such a big deal if ppl didn't take these fictional characters so darn seriously. Kaidan and Miranda are my faves, I think default Shepard looks so darn good paired with them and the romance with Kaidan is just awesome. I tried killing him off and going with Ashley in one play through and I felt so guilty I restarted the mission to save him. lol! But I have passed over a lot of "Kaidan is boring and suck" threads and in others I have stated why I disagree and just move on. there's no need to slap another poster over the face with a glove and challenge them to a deal.

[dgcatanisiri]

StreetMagic wrote...

I'm not a Liara hater, but I think the time where she really grates on me (in that "violent" way) is Mars and how they wrote her as a sort of tutorial character. There was a time when she was kneeling down and cowering.. you know just a scientist who left the fighting to others. Now she's instructing Shepard how to do simple things like take cover. It's kind of jarring. Also, Alenko is both older than and outranks my Shepard now, and she has that comment about how capable he's become.. like he's some little child who's finally spreading his wings. Seems like this stuff is written for new players. Not to mention he's already a member of the Master Sentinel Race.. so there's no reason to doubt those types anyways

Yeah, dear god, that comment about how Ashley/Kaidan 'have become' capable grates on me so much, especially with Shepard just auto-agreeing with her. BOTH were trained Alliance soldiers prior to the events of ME1, and Liara was just an archeologist who had likely never held a gun before in her life - who, exactly, has 'become' capable, between them and her? It actually comes across as rather condescending, almost like her opinion of herself is that she was the kind who could or would do all of this asari commando stuff before she met Ashley/Kaidan, with them being less able than she was at the time of ME1. And Shepard just agrees with her statement, as if s/he agrees with that impression.

Do note, I am like 99.9% sure that that wouldn't actually be her impression, but that's really the thing here - in moments like this, I feel like the game, the writing, props her up at the expense of other characters in an effort at making her look better. It's the 'and' thing that someone mentioned a few pages back. She's the prothean expert AND an extremely powerful biotic AND the one who recovered Shepard's body AND the Shadow Broker AND Shepard's closest confidante. It's too much for one character and it starts cutting in to the ability of the other characters to make decent contributions, because it's Liara who is there to be all of these things. By virtue of her being the guaranteed variable, things were written around her, rather than anyone else.

And yeah, it really isn't fair to BLAME Liara for this, given that it's really the writers not mapping out where they were going and what they would do in later games before they started putting the game together, so they DO introduce a lot of characters who they then had no idea how to treat in later installments, as well as arranged to potentially die at points prior to the finale, so they weren't utilized. But, since she gets this spotlight, she makes a convenient scapegoat for the complaints about the writers. It's not really fair for her, but, by giving her that spotlight, she also got made into a target - objectively, what is it about Liara that makes her getting this attention earned? Why is she the one who got made a guaranteed variable unlike other characters? (And I would be asking this question if it had been a character other than Liara who had been put in this position.) It's less about Liara as a character and more about her handling by the writers, by them putting her in the forefront and leaving others in the background.

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, dear god, that comment about how Ashley/Kaidan 'have become' capable grates on me so much, especially with Shepard just auto-agreeing with her. BOTH were trained Alliance soldiers prior to the events of ME1, and Liara was just an archeologist who had likely never held a gun before in her life - who, exactly, has 'become' capable, between them and her? It actually comes across as rather condescending, almost like her opinion of herself is that she was the kind who could or would do all of this asari commando stuff before she met Ashley/Kaidan, with them being less able than she was at the time of ME1. And Shepard just agrees with her statement, as if s/he agrees with that impression.

Keep in mind that she already had combat experience; fighting off various pirates and the like on her digsites. Also that she's the most powerful party member in ME1.

[Hazegurl]

StreetMagic wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Wow, that's sad that someone thinks a game character is a better alternative to real love. I agree, none of the romance threads and forums and character discussion threads wouldn't be such a big deal if ppl didn't take these fictional characters so darn seriously. Kaidan and Miranda are my faves, I think default Shepard looks so darn good paired with them and the romance with Kaidan is just awesome. I tried killing him off and going with Ashley in one play through and I felt so guilty I restarted the mission to save him. lol! But I have passed over a lot of "Kaidan is boring and suck" threads and in others I have stated why I disagree and just move on. there's no need to slap another poster over the face with a glove and challenge them to a deal.

I like Ash and Kaidan both, but it depends on my Shepard. I like saving Kaidan as a biotic.. A renegade biotic, that is. Kaidan is like the Paragon counterpart. Alenko is Ice, Renegade Shepard is Fire. Kind of neat to have both around too, since Shepard was named after Alan Shepard, and Alenko is a Slavic name. Kind of subtle throwback to US/Russian space programs. As a Soldier or Infiltrator, I like Ashley. Ash sort of plays the part of student (romance or not) in this case.. and I guess the trust between them comes crashing down a bit because of the Cerberus plot. This is what I love about Bioware's games for the most part though.. Easy to create these backstories. It's very flexible. All of the characters are a like a pallete to paint with. Except less so in ME3.

I like the way you role play  I sometimes wish there was an option to save both. I sort of love the idea of Shepard, Kaidan, and Ashley working together as Specters



I agree that Bioware can be rather flexible and I wouldn't have it any other way. I have a nice little backstory on my Renegade Earth Shep. And I totally head canon Liara out of the recovery of Shep's body. IMO, it makes far more sense for TIM and Cerberus to get his body from the Shadow broker than her anyway.

[dgcatanisiri]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yeah, dear god, that comment about how Ashley/Kaidan 'have become' capable grates on me so much, especially with Shepard just auto-agreeing with her. BOTH were trained Alliance soldiers prior to the events of ME1, and Liara was just an archeologist who had likely never held a gun before in her life - who, exactly, has 'become' capable, between them and her? It actually comes across as rather condescending, almost like her opinion of herself is that she was the kind who could or would do all of this asari commando stuff before she met Ashley/Kaidan, with them being less able than she was at the time of ME1. And Shepard just agrees with her statement, as if s/he agrees with that impression.

Keep in mind that she already had combat experience; fighting off various pirates and the like on her digsites. Also that she's the most powerful party member in ME1.

I legitimately do not recall her ever saying that she fought pirates at the digsites. The most I remember is her referring to pirates as potential threats, but that doesn't mean she personally fought them - as a prothean researcher, her digs would have to be approved by the Citadel Council, based on the laws of Citadel space regarding prothean artifacts, which would likely call for a security presence to be out there with them specifically to deal with pirates and the like, people who are trained to deal with the fighting while the researchers take cover. So I don't see any mention of the threat of pirates at the dig sites being a guarantee of Liara having combat experience.

As for her power abilities, yeah, like all characters, she's pretty powerful once she's gotten some experience (though she's a pure biotic in a game where biotics are hilariously over-powered), but when we meet her, she's not had the opportunity to utilize them. So even with her growing and improving over the course of ME1, so are Ashley and Kaidan, who already had military training to back them up in their own abilities. And that 'capable' line comes after Ashley/Kaidan come up with an idea about getting across the tramway and to Cerberus, as if she hadn't been expecting them to come up with a plan that would work. Like I said, that bit feels like it's propping her character up at Ashley/Kaidan's expense, and while I don't consider it Liara's intention, that's how it comes across, due to the writing.

[Hazegurl]

I agree, sadly the writing for Liara just plain sucks. Having more content doesn't automatically make it good content. It's just more, that's all. She came across as quite arrogant with the Ash/Kaidan line even to a newbie player like myself but a part of me questioned if Kaidan/Ashley were some sort of screw up or lightweight compared to her. Turns out it was the other way around. I hope that the writing for the squad mates in the next mass effect is more balanced and well thought out.

[Xilizhra]

I legitimately do not recall her ever saying that she fought pirates at the digsites. The most I remember is her referring to pirates as potential threats, but that doesn't mean she personally fought them - as a prothean researcher, her digs would have to be approved by the Citadel Council, based on the laws of Citadel space regarding prothean artifacts, which would likely call for a security presence to be out there with them specifically to deal with pirates and the like, people who are trained to deal with the fighting while the researchers take cover. So I don't see any mention of the threat of pirates at the dig sites being a guarantee of Liara having combat experience.

She does, in fact, mention having fought them off at one point.

I agree, sadly the writing for Liara just plain sucks. Having more content doesn't automatically make it good content. It's just more, that's all. She came across as quite arrogant with the Ash/Kaidan line even to a newbie player like myself but a part of me questioned if Kaidan/Ashley were some sort of screw up or lightweight compared to her. Turns out it was the other way around. I hope that the writing for the squad mates in the next mass effect is more balanced and well thought out.

Hah. The VS screwed up far harder, twice.

[DuskWanderer]

Xilizhra wrote...

She does, in fact, mention having fought them off at one point.

At best, Liara's fought a few pirates. Ashley and Kaidan, simply by virtue of fighting through Eden Prime (to say nothing of backstory) would be more experienced than she. 

I agree with the poster who says it's really feels like the writers playing Liara up at the expense of the VS. She is a researcher, they are soldiers. They are better at war than she is: It's not a criticism, it's just a fact. 

It would have been better if Liara had simply mentioned something about how they keep moving, despite Earth. Liara mentions over the course of the mission (and the game) that she has difficulty focusing, and it would keep Liara's character consistent, without making the VS look like a putz. Let Liara shine on the information brokering: That's her thing. 

Hah. The VS screwed up far harder, twice.

What "screw-ups" would those be? Horizon? From the outside, Cerberus is ME3's Cerberus, not ME2's (Remember, the Illusive Man quite clearly states on the Cerberus HQ mission that ME2's Cerberus was a front) Not going with Shepard was just bloody common sense. 

[Xilizhra]

At best, Liara's fought a few pirates. Ashley and Kaidan, simply by virtue of fighting through Eden Prime (to say nothing of backstory) would be more experienced than she.

You make a great many assumptions there.

I agree with the poster who says it's really feels like the writers playing Liara up at the expense of the VS. She is a researcher, they are soldiers. They are better at war than she is: It's not a criticism, it's just a fact.

It's not a fact at all. They're both highly skilled in combat. I've no doubt the VS is better with guns, but Liara is better with biotics.

What "screw-ups" would those be? Horizon? From the outside, Cerberus is ME3's Cerberus, not ME2's (Remember, the Illusive Man quite clearly states on the Cerberus HQ mission that ME2's Cerberus was a front) Not going with Shepard was just bloody common sense.

Horizon (just walking away from Shepard was on the foolish side regardless), and then siding with Udina.

[DuskWanderer]

Xilizhra wrote...

You make a great many assumptions there.

No fewer than your assumption that Liara is superior to them.

It's not a fact at all. They're both highly skilled in combat. I've no doubt the VS is better with guns, but Liara is better with biotics.

Proof? Liara may be an asari, but she's a child, not trained in war. She's had what basically amounts to high school gym class (she mentions it's basic education). Kaidan, by contrast, was specifically trained to use his biotics in battle.

Horizon (just walking away from Shepard was on the foolish side regardless), and then siding with Udina.

I've already answered Horizon, you need to provide more proof than what you've said. As for siding with Udina? They actually don't do that. They have their gun drawn and turn it towards Shepard, not knowing it's actually Shepard. After that, Udina and Shepard argue. And then, Ash/Kaidan side with Shepard.

The only time they side against you if Udina shows evidence that you killed the salarian. 

Unilaterally doing whatever Shepard tells you is not sensible, particularly given the fact that they live in a world with indoctrination.

[Xilizhra]

No fewer than your assumption that Liara is superior to them.

I never said so. Their prowess is in different areas.

Proof? Liara may be an asari, but she's a child, not trained in war. She's had what basically amounts to high school gym class (she mentions it's basic education). Kaidan, by contrast, was specifically trained to use his biotics in battle.

You're wholly ignoring what she's said about fighting off pirates ("never met anything my biotics could not handle"), and she's not a child; the actual line is "considered barely more than a child," which, well, isn't a child.

I've already answered Horizon, you need to provide more proof than what you've said. As for siding with Udina? They actually don't do that. They have their gun drawn and turn it towards Shepard, not knowing it's actually Shepard. After that, Udina and Shepard argue. And then, Ash/Kaidan side with Shepard.

If you want, we could come to some accord about withdrawing any claims of screwedupness for either side.

[Hazegurl]

lol! I love the VS more than any other squad mate *because* they speak up against Shepard and don't kiss his/her a**. Wrex is the only other squad mate that challenges Shepard when needed. I'm not interested in mindless 'yes' men mind slaves. I don't consider that riveting character development, but to each his/her own.

[Barquiel]

The VS totally screwed up their mission on Horizon, and that has nothing to do with kissing Shepards a**. Anderson sent them to Horizon to investigate whether or not Cerberus is involved in the colony disappearances. They see how Shepard works with Cerberus and saved the colony from unknown aliens. Ok...why not investigate what's going on? There are some really basic questions they should have asked to give Anderson and the alliance an idea what Shepard is up to. That was their mission. How did Shepard's squad counter the seeker swarm attack? The Collectors attack human colonies...what evidence does Shepard have? Who else is on Shepards squad? They could have asked for details about the Lazarus project, scans of the collector ship, etc. None of these reasonable questions was asked. Instead they call Shepard a traitor and storm off.

I think "capable" simply means "getting things done without Shepard holding their hand". Liara saved Shepard's body from the collectors and found the crucible plans. Miranda managed a project that ended with the greatest medical breakthrough in history and saved the citadel (with Jacob). Wrex has united a good portion of the krogan clans. Garrus' crusade was pointless, but he kept three huge mercenary gangs and waves of freelancers at bay for days with nothing but a sniper rifle and a ton of ammo. What did Ashley/Kaidan accomplish on their own?

Modifié par Barquiel, 16 octobre 2013 - 02:53 .

[Hazegurl]

Kaidan (VS) was sent only to investigate Cerberus' involvement. He got his answer already. He knew of the Collectors, Seeker swarms, and how the colonists were abducted. There is nothing else to investigate. It was made perfectly clear that the alliance was not going to operate outside of their zone and they considered any Human colony outside the zone to be "on their own" and they too had a hostile attitude toward alliance aid. I highly doubt the VS sent in a report crying "Shepard is a traitor"

 Kaidan was promoted to Staff Commander sometime after Shep's death, was eventually promoted to Major (A higher rank than Shepard), and commands the first spec Ops biotic squad. He got all this done using old L2 implants that even your precious Liara praised him for in ME1. I doubt he got all of these promotions by sitting on his butt doing nothing all day but waiting for Shepard to hold his hand. The only promotion that is suspect is Council Spectre, but I don't see how Kaidan would be just totally undeserving of the title, and the rest of the Councilors seem perfectly fine with the choice and even relied on him for protection during the Citadel attack.  So yeah minus council Spectre (a title he gets after Mars) Kaidan was already a higher rank than Shepard within the Alliance so what the heck is Liara talking about again? 
 

Modifié par Hazegurl, 16 octobre 2013 - 08:15 .

[Sir DeLoria]

I don't see how Liara is any better than the VS in ME2. She puts her own interests ahead and refuses to join Shepard. The VS distrusts Shep and refuses to join them. Wrex is more interested in leading his clan and thus refuses to join. I'm not criticizing any of them, but I don't see how they are superior or inferior to one another.

They all have their own reasons, the result is more or less the same.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

actual line is "considered barely more than a child,"

love at first sight for you no?

Modifié par Steelcan, 16 octobre 2013 - 08:38 .