986 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

actual line is "considered barely more than a child,"

love at first sight for you no?

Kinda messed up, though. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 16 octobre 2013 - 08:49 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Even if Liara had fought off a bunch of pirates, her combat training and experience would still be vastly inferior to anyone else. In order of experience and training, I'd say:

Wrex > Kaidan/Ash > Garrus > Tali > Liara

Modifié par Necanor, 16 octobre 2013 - 08:53 .

[Barquiel]

Shepard either survived impossible odds or saved a lot of people. Then she saved Eden Prime and proved that Saren was a traitor. What did the VS do that was so special to make them a Spectre? Ashley and Kaidan are made a spectre for the sole reason of protecting Donnel Udina... because he wanted someone he could manipulate during the coup. The other councilors don't even trust them. The salarian Council member doesn't contact the VS (who is on the citadel) with concerns about large sums of money moving through the bank accounts of Udina. He contacts Shepard (who is on Tuchanka). And these promotions were political rather than anything else. Promoting them so fast was basically done to create a new "shepard". Going from gunnery chief to commander in 3 years is just way too fast.

And I'm pretty sure the Alliance would have wanted to know about Mordin's countermeasure. Hackett also says in Arrival (if you do it before the suice mission) that they are posting fleets to guard the larger colonies and evacuating smaller ones, however any ships which encounter the Collectors promptly drop out of the contact. I don't know...maybe scans of the collector ship could have been useful.

Modifié par Barquiel, 16 octobre 2013 - 08:56 .

[Br3admax]

I would say Garrus tops Ashley, and Kaidan more comparable to Garrus.

Either way though, Liara has no business staying on the ship after she stopped being useful logically. I would never keep her around on the of chance that she may discover a super weapon someday.

[Sir DeLoria]

Br3ad wrote...

I would say Garrus tops Ashley, and Kaidan more comparable to Garrus.

Either way though, Liara has no business staying on the ship after she stopped being useful logically. I would never keep her around on the of chance that she may discover a super weapon someday.

Yeah, I was wondering wether Garrus was more experienced than Ash and Kaidan. But when it comes down to it, the VS are both Alliance soldiers, whereas Garrus is a space cop.

[dgcatanisiri]

Hazegurl wrote...

Kaidan (VS) was sent only to investigate Cerberus' involvement. He got his answer already. He knew of the Collectors, Seeker swarms, and how the colonists were abducted. There is nothing else to investigate. It was made perfectly clear that the alliance was not going to operate outside of their zone and they considered any Human colony outside the zone to be "on their own" and they too had a hostile attitude toward alliance aid. I highly doubt the VS sent in a report crying "Shepard is a traitor"

 Kaidan was promoted to Staff Commander sometime after Shep's death, was eventually promoted to Major (A higher rank than Shepard), and commands the first spec Ops biotic squad. He got all this done using old L2 implants that even your precious Liara praised him for in ME1. I doubt he got all of these promotions by sitting on his butt doing nothing all day but waiting for Shepard to hold his hand. The only promotion that is suspect is Council Spectre, but I don't see how Kaidan would be just totally undeserving of the title, and the rest of the Councilors seem perfectly fine with the choice and even relied on him for protection during the Citadel attack.  So yeah minus council Spectre (a title he gets after Mars) Kaidan was already a higher rank than Shepard within the Alliance so what the heck is Liara talking about again? 
 

There's also the fact that to the VS, Shepard appearing on Horizon does not mean 'Cerberus resurrected Shepard!' It means 'Commander Shepard, the first human Spectre, has abandoned the Alliance to work with a terrorist organization.' I mean, you see someone who you spent two years thinking was dead suddenly alive again, it's more reasonable to assume that their death was faked rather than all laws of man and nature were violated. So Shepard looks to them as having faked their death to join a terrorist group. Which makes Shepard a traitor and any and all information that they have to offer suspect at best - how reliably does the Alliance treat a terrorist group's intel? Which, by the way, Shepard doesn't even offer to give - they invite Ashley/Kaidan to come with them, but that means working with Cerberus and turning their back on their oaths.

And no one in the Alliance KNEW about the Collectors and their methods prior to the Horizon attacks. Horizon was the first colony to actually have people not be taken, people who could tell what happened. Cerberus didn't even know who was responsible until they got lucky enough to get to Freedom's Progress before Tali's team got Veetor out of there. The Alliance did not have the information to investigate the Collectors at the time of the attack. So the VS would not have orders to investigate the colony disappearances, because the Alliance had no idea who was attacking or how they were doing it, but they didn't have details about who it was or how they were doing it - from the VS's perspective, Shepard showing up, at a colony they're on, in time to rescue them from these attacks? It easily looks like a set-up, meant to get the VS to trust Shepard, and by extension Cerberus, and get them some bigger goal, maybe legitimacy by having these two prominent Alliance figures working with Cerberus, maybe something else. From where the VS stands, everything about Shepard appearing on Horizon right then screamed set up.

I also point out, the games were focused on Commander Shepard's story. Ashley and Kaidan, after Shepard's death, had their own lives, their own stories, their own accomplishments. We don't get told about them because a) they're absent through most of ME2 and ME3 is war/Reaper focused and  the writers seemed to have mostly forgotten about including most things character based following the coup (and all characters got hit with this to varying degrees). But if the VS is offered the Spectre position post-Mars regardless, then they had to do SOMETHING to earn those wings, and with Shepard back in the Council's good graces, it's not a purely political move, since Shepard is a human Spectre. They had their own stories separate from Shepard, their lives did not revolve around Shepard. And that's really kind of the problem of Liara being so many things for Shepard - from the moment she meets Shepard, her character gets entirely wrapped up in Shepard and her relationship to them.

Really, that line of Liara's on Mars could so easily have been something similar but still vitally different - instead of 'Ashley/Kaidan have become quite capable,' make it something like 'Ashley/Kaidan is holding together well. I don't think I would be so stoic if it were Thessia.' Right there, not only do we have her complimenting them instead of condescending, we also have foreshadowing for Thessia and Liara falling apart at it.

[Barquiel]

Liara traveled the Terminus systems before Tali, Ashley and Kaidan were even born. She has a lot more experiance than these three characters.

[Sir DeLoria]

Barquiel wrote...

Liara traveled the Terminus systems before Tali, Ashley and Kaidan were even born. She has a lot more experiance than these three characters.

When is that stated? Regardless, she didn't receive any combat or advanced weapons training. Kaidan and Ash are both experienced Alliance soldiers, who have served for quite some time. Tali has numerous implants, prototype tech applications and received weapons and close combat training. 

Even if Liara fended off pirates, she's never been in a warzone, she's not a military veteran. She is a powerful biotic, but that's it and admits that herself.

Modifié par Necanor, 16 octobre 2013 - 09:10 .

[Mr.House]

Barquiel wrote...

Liara traveled the Terminus systems before Tali, Ashley and Kaidan were even born. She has a lot more experiance than these three characters.

Ash and Kaidan went through military traning, and in Kaidans case, a uniuqe training group when he was young. Just because liara iso lder really means nothing when Kaidan and Ash been training in the military far longer which means their combat skills and leadership and survivablity is far better then Liara. Liara is also very naive about politics.

Liara simply knows about ruins because that's her job.

[Steelcan]

Barquiel wrote...

Liara traveled the Terminus systems before Tali, Ashley and Kaidan were even born. She has a lot more experiance than these three characters.

I doubt it

[Br3admax]

Barquiel wrote...

Liara traveled the Terminus systems before Tali, Ashley and Kaidan were even born. She has a lot more experiance than these three characters.

I suppose the old women who traveled to Europe also had more experience than the Dough Boys. 

[Mr.House]

Eh to be fair, Tali and Liara are in the same boat in my books, of course people will be bias between the two.

Modifié par Mr.House, 16 octobre 2013 - 09:12 .

[Barquiel]

Mr.House wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Liara traveled the Terminus systems before Tali, Ashley and Kaidan were even born. She has a lot more experiance than these three characters.

Ash and Kaidan went through military traning, and in Kaidans case, a uniuqe training group when he was young. Just because liara iso lder really means nothing when Kaidan and Ash been training in the military far longer which means their combat skills and leadership and survivablity is far better then Liara. Liara is also very naive about politics.

Liara simply knows about ruins because that's her job.

Liara has been in real combat situations before, but it was "nothing her biotics couldn't handle?

I could be wrong, but I don't think Ashley and kaidan have been in real combat situations before they fought the geth on Eden Prime (not to mention Tali...).

Modifié par Barquiel, 16 octobre 2013 - 09:17 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Barquiel wrote...

Liara traveled the Terminus systems before Tali, Ashley and Kaidan were even born. She has a lot more experiance than these three characters.

Liara is my LI about 95% of the time, but no, she does not have more relevant experience than Ashley or Kaidan. Probably Tali, since ME1 was the first time Tali had gotten away from the Flotilla, and likely has similar training, but she does not have more experience than two trained soldiers, career soldiers. Good biotics, probably some self defense and Commando training simply by virtue of being Benezia's daughter, but little more than that. She's not a complete newby, but she's there more for her biotic utility and her knowledge than her combat skill.

[Mr.House]

Barquiel wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Liara traveled the Terminus systems before Tali, Ashley and Kaidan were even born. She has a lot more experiance than these three characters.

Ash and Kaidan went through military traning, and in Kaidans case, a uniuqe training group when he was young. Just because liara iso lder really means nothing when Kaidan and Ash been training in the military far longer which means their combat skills and leadership and survivablity is far better then Liara. Liara is also very naive about politics.

Liara simply knows about ruins because that's her job.

Liara has been in real combat situations before, but it was "nothing her biotics couldn't handle?

I could be wrong, but I don't think Ashley and kaidan have been in real combat situations before they fought the geth on Eden Prime (not to mention Tali...).

*headdesk*

[Barquiel]

Mr.House wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Liara traveled the Terminus systems before Tali, Ashley and Kaidan were even born. She has a lot more experiance than these three characters.

Ash and Kaidan went through military traning, and in Kaidans case, a uniuqe training group when he was young. Just because liara iso lder really means nothing when Kaidan and Ash been training in the military far longer which means their combat skills and leadership and survivablity is far better then Liara. Liara is also very naive about politics.

Liara simply knows about ruins because that's her job.

Liara has been in real combat situations before, but it was "nothing her biotics couldn't handle?

I could be wrong, but I don't think Ashley and kaidan have been in real combat situations before they fought the geth on Eden Prime (not to mention Tali...).

*headdesk*

It's been a while since I've played ME1, did they mention something?

Modifié par Barquiel, 16 octobre 2013 - 09:19 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Barquiel wrote...
Liara has been in real combat situations before, but it was "nothing her biotics couldn't handle?

I could be wrong, but I don't think Ashley and kaidan have been in real combat situations before they fought the geth on Eden Prime (not to mention Tali...).

Tali at least fought Geth and mercs before joining up with Shep.

Modifié par Necanor, 16 octobre 2013 - 09:23 .

[Mr.House]

Kaidan had a bunch of commendations and was also hand picked by Anderson. This would not have happen if Kaidan was not in any battles. Ashley was the only one that was ground side most of  her life but she still went through all the training, including the very brutal ones like Titan. She also survived a full geth attack on Edan Prime(not the same as fighting some pirates or a small group of geth)

Also killing a group of pirates is not the same as what soldiers do. Tali and Liara are on the same boat, but they are not even close to Ashley and Kaidan, with Wrex being the top of the totem pole.

Modifié par Mr.House, 16 octobre 2013 - 09:23 .

[Barquiel]

Mr.House wrote...

Kaidan had a bunch of commendations and was also hand picked by Anderson. This would not have happen if Kaidan was not in any battles. Ashley was the only one that was ground side most of  her life but she still went through all the training, including the very brutal ones like Titan. She also survived a full geth attack on Edan Prime(not the same as fighting some pirates or a small group of geth)

Also killing a group of pirates is not the same as what soldiers do. Tali and Liara are on the same boat, but they are not even close to Ashley and Kaidan, with Wrex being the top of the totem pole.

Ashley is just a mere soldier who has served only on backwater colonies because of her blacklisting, and has no specialty like biotics or tech. Kaidan says he was hesitant to use his abilities on living targets, but he changes his mind after Eden Prime. I don't doubt that they've received more training than Liara. But I don't think they have been in any battles (the only battles the alliance fought were some skirmishes with batarian slavers in these years), that's what I meant before with "experience".

Modifié par Barquiel, 16 octobre 2013 - 09:40 .

[Mr.House]

So Kaidan got those commendations from what, playing Dragon Age on the holo?

Also did the Blitz and Torfan escape your mind? Two very big battles?

Modifié par Mr.House, 16 octobre 2013 - 09:43 .

[Hazegurl]

Barquiel wrote...

Shepard either survived impossible odds or saved a lot of people. Then she saved Eden Prime and proved that Saren was a traitor. What did the VS do that was so special to make them a Spectre?

Shepard did not accomplish all of that before becoming a Spectre. He was just an alliance member known for his actions in whatever profile chosen for him in ME1. It is reasonable that all it takes is a recommendation and an exceptional military profile to become a Spectre. However, IMO I believe Kaidan is more deserving than Ashley.

And I'm pretty sure the Alliance would have wanted to know about Mordin's countermeasure. Hackett also says in Arrival (if you do it before the suice mission) that they are posting fleets to guard the larger colonies and evacuating smaller ones, however any ships which encounter the Collectors promptly drop out of the contact. I don't know...maybe scans of the collector ship could have been useful.

I can't really say as I save Arrival for after the SM. From this it seems like they decided to get involved after the VS encountered Shepard and sent their report. I still don't see how the VS is blamed for this. They did just what they were supposed to do. Investigate and report, not hop on a Cerberus ship and run around the galaxy with Shepard.  Besides, I don't really see what the scans could do, it was obvious that the Collectors were very strong and needed to be stopped via the SM.

[Barquiel]

Mr.House wrote...

So Kaidan got those commendations from what, playing Dragon Age on the holo?

Also did the Blitz and Torfan escape your mind? Two very big battles?

...against batarian warlords and pirates 

And not all commendations require service in a combat area.

[Hazegurl]

dgcatanisiri wrote...
There's also the fact that to the VS, Shepard appearing on Horizon does not mean 'Cerberus resurrected Shepard!' It means 'Commander Shepard, the first human Spectre, has abandoned the Alliance to work with a terrorist organization.' I mean, you see someone who you spent two years thinking was dead suddenly alive again, it's more reasonable to assume that their death was faked rather than all laws of man and nature were violated. 

It easily looks like a set-up, meant to get the VS to trust Shepard, and by extension Cerberus, and get them some bigger goal, maybe legitimacy by having these two prominent Alliance figures working with Cerberus, maybe something else. From where the VS stands, everything about Shepard appearing on Horizon right then screamed set up.

You bring up so many great points here that I didn't think about. If we look at the experiments Cerberus were involved with in ME1. Husks and so on. It is easy to believe that Cerberus were setting the whole thing up with a "dead" Shepard on their side. Considering the fact that we learn that Cerberus could have been Alliance at first and recruited ex Alliance personnel.  Oh yeah, the VS was smart not to trust Shepard from their POV.

I also point out, the games were focused on Commander Shepard's story. Ashley and Kaidan, after Shepard's death, had their own lives, their own stories, their own accomplishments. We don't get told about them because a) they're absent through most of ME2 and ME3 is war/Reaper focused and  the writers seemed to have mostly forgotten about including most things character based following the coup (and all characters got hit with this to varying degrees). But if the VS is offered the Spectre position post-Mars regardless, then they had to do SOMETHING to earn those wings, and with Shepard back in the Council's good graces, it's not a purely political move, since Shepard is a human Spectre. They had their own stories separate from Shepard, their lives did not revolve around Shepard. And that's really kind of the problem of Liara being so many things for Shepard - from the moment she meets Shepard, her character gets entirely wrapped up in Shepard and her relationship to them.

I agree, ME is Shep's story so it's only natural that we don't know every single detail of the VS lives without Shepard in it and that goes for the rest of the characters that aren't glued to Shepard's backside.  We'll probably never know everything Jack did to finally become a teacher. We know of all of Liara and Garrus' accomplishments because everything they do somehow relates to Shepard. 

[DuskWanderer]

Conversations with Doctor Chakwas in the first game tell us that Kaidan has been in many high-risk war zones and received commendations for his valor.

As for Ash, while she's been stationed groundside, she's not only exemplary on the technical standpoin, but Eden Prime alone is far more than anything Liara has done.

I also see claims that Ashley and Kaidan were made Spectres for the sole purpose of defending Udina, which is an assertion with no basis in fact. Udina had no reason to believe Shepard would come back to the Citadel during the coup, not to mention he had his hands busy with the summit, and later, the genophage.

I'm willing to believe that Shepard is seen as more capable than Ash/Kaidan, and that Valern/Esheel only picked Shepard because they knew the genophage cure was completed. and Shepard was now free to deal with such a thing.

[Seboist]

ME1 Liara always struck me as if she was written by some basement dweller with little to no interaction with actual women with the hero worship and social retardation(not knowing what humor is, seriously?)

Needless to say, she was the least credible fighter of the team in 1.