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[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

ThinkSharp wrote...
I don't think it's that much of a stretch.
You could really sum up the main trajectory of Jack's life, including
the Normandy stint, as trying to find her place in the galaxy. I mean
the core question of her loyalty mission and it's eventual resolution
are pretty much "who am I? why?"  Sure, she doesn't really give a ****
about the grand idea of "what is humanity's place in the stars?" But she
still asks those questions on a personal level.

That her life
experiences thus far have been pretty much caused by humanity being
thrust into a galaxy shaped by new space-age tech--biotics--and the
resulting need to find it's place at the top of the
galaxy--Cerberus--just emphasizes the theme more.

I won't speak
for Street, but I'd say that on a broader and thematic level it
works. If you're going to look at Jack's actual personal opinions, not
so much.

And, clearly I'm in ME2-mode.

Which for me just makes it a question of identity, of a lost soul trying to find her place and meaning in life. And while I can see the subtext for Ashley, Kaidan and Liara because not only did they have conversations about the subject or closely related to it, it also took place in a game that largely dealt with that theme. As opposed to ME2 which largely sidelined and/or diminshed it.

StreetMagic wrote...

Ascension program. She's now indelibly linked to Kahlee and bringing up/associating with the best humanity can offer at that school. She's a more productive Gillian Grayson. That and her cojones. Her toughness, her hardnosed survival instinct (ash typifies this too). Humanity can never have enough of that.

Which for me is simply the conclusion of her quest for an identity, I don't feel what you mentioned was in focus whatsoever. Yes, she does help raise and defend the kids, but it has nothing to do with humanity.

And really. Grissom as a mission suffers when Jack is present, it is much better than the sad joke it is with her.

[Hazegurl]

I like the thought of the LI representing the themes of human cooperation within the story. If I look at it this way, I wonder how many players picked Liara and Garrus as an LI because they had a 100% pro alien mindset.

Who picked Tali because deep down they emphasized with her being an outcast in a community humans have also been shunned from for a time?

or any of the human LIs because of their more pro human mindset.

I admit that my Shep is certainly more pro human. In ME1 He was quite Xenophobic but was attracted to Kaidan's level headedness when dealing with aliens despite what he went through with the Turian in BAaT. Kaidan understood that humans had to cooperate with the council but he also expressed his anger at the council's refusal to help. Eventually Kaidan reaches a point where he sees aliens as no different than humans. If I were to go with this theme, I could say that my Shep's relationship with him represents Shepard's willingness to cooperate with aliens but without losing his humanity. I don't know if it makes much sense but that's how I see it. lol! In ME3 everything was pro alien, pro synthetic. Super bonding with the aliens and EDI. The writers were really laying it on thick.

What surprised me was how anti Geth Kaidan was to the point of being glad they were dead (if they were killed off). I understand his feelings totally though but considering how accepting he was of Turians I thought he would reach the same level headedness with the Geth. I guess Kaidan is more Pro Organic than anything?

[Xilizhra]

One thing about Liara that did puzzle me.

Why does she sound so hostile towards Samara when you meet her on the AY monestary? At first I thought this was a consequence of having an attempted romance with Samara in 2. But she has the same line no matter what.

If I had to guess, she doesn't like justicars. Which is hardly surprising.

If I were to go with this theme, I could say that my Shep's relationship with him represents Shepard's willingness to cooperate with aliens but without losing his humanity. I don't know if it makes much sense but that's how I see it. lol! In ME3 everything was pro alien, pro synthetic. Super bonding with the aliens and EDI. The writers were really laying it on thick.

I find this notion that building alliances leads to a loss of humanity to be utterly baffling, personally. What do they have to do with each other? At all?

[Xilizhra]

StreetMagic wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


I find this notion that building alliances leads to a loss of humanity to be utterly baffling, personally. What do they have to do with each other? At all?

Nothing. Nothing at all. But the game's main themes tend to be very black and white about it. You don't get enough emphasis on these middle ground paths for humanity's future. They're there, but not explored enough. You have to rely on lore and subtle things here and there. ME3 is unlike the other games, in this respect. The human cause all gets lumped in with Cerberus. The other side opposing it is galactic unity (obviously, the better path.. but I think the camera, if you will, needs to zoom a bit more.. instead of presenting it all as one big melting pot. There are details worth exploring on what the future might look like).

Well.. deservedly so, quite frankly. There's no need to not be black and white about it; which answer is the best is pretty clear. Additionally, the "human cause" was always the Alliance's; Cerberus was all about its own cause, its own domination. And that human cause is, in the end, galactic unity in and of itself, which honesetly is only sensible.

[Hazegurl]

StreetMagic wrote...

Yeah, Kaidan had his own problems with aliens growing up, but his whole theme is like... treat them on an individual basis. Don't fall into xenophobia. They're "saints and jerks", just like us. And we don't have to compromise ourselves to work with them.

 I love that about his character.

Xil, I disagree, The galactic community still has a lot of problems. Such as a melting pot that is only represented by three and now four specie representatives. We have seen these representatives undermine the needs and improvements of other species in favor of their own. Heck we even see with our own eyes how little the three prominent members of the council view the needs of their own Human council member.  I believe that Cerberus and TIM fought for humanity all the way, even in ME3.  But it became a detriment to humanity as well. Thus the dagger in it's back comment. 

I have always role played my Shepard as caring for humans first and foremost and that means working with the community. But he will never tolerate throwing humans under the bus in favor of a half assed galactic community which is just what the council is. imo

Modifié par Hazegurl, 18 octobre 2013 - 12:15 .

[Xilizhra]

You don't get to gloat. It may be black and white, but it's not a complete win for your point of view. The problem was merely execution. The writers are well aware that these complications exist, but they just forget to speak of it enough. But they do hint at it sometimes..

It's not gloating, it's just a fact. If they wanted moral ambiguity, they should have picked a different issue.

For example, I can still oppose TIM on Thessia, but tell him :
"Cerberus was supposed to be humanity's sword, but you turned it into a
dagger in it's back.." This is still a Shepard that believes in some fundamental aspect about human autonomy. He's fighting for galactic unity, but still someone championing a more independent attitude as well.

You can interpret it like this, yes. You can also interpret it calling out TIM on his stated intentions being completely different from his actions without supporting Cerberus at all, as mine did.

[Xilizhra]

StreetMagic wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You don't get to gloat. It may be black and white, but it's not a complete win for your point of view. The problem was merely execution. The writers are well aware that these complications exist, but they just forget to speak of it enough. But they do hint at it sometimes..

It's not gloating, it's just a fact. If they wanted moral ambiguity, they should have picked a different issue.

It is a gloat. That's all you amount to, I think. Well, that and smugness. You already get a lot of your wishlist in this game, and then stick around to rub it in.. unhappy that no one is as happy as you. Kicking people while they're down is way your brand of fun. Nothing short of dominating other people's game experiences will satisfy you. No matter how fun/good your own experience is - you need other people to get trampled by it for the experience to be complete.

Wat?

Er... I'm not quite sure what to say except possibly "check your paranoia." I'm not sure when you came to this forum, but I've always argued strenuously in favor of Paragon worldviews, long before ME3 came out. This has nothing to do with gloating.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

StreetMagic wrote...

Ascension is more than identity.. it becomes more about giving back to humanity. The whole Ascension Project itself is symbolic of human potential.
...
At least try to meet me halfway here. The context of my post was about romances. Not a general discussion about neutral playthroughs. Everything works different depending on your relationships/valued characters, obviously. The writing is often different, the evolution of characters is subtly different, etc..

Änd I disagree. The Ascension Project might be symbolic of human potential, but I didn't feel that they focused on that aspect of it when it came to Jack's participation in it or her relationship with her students. Could they have done it? Yes, but they didn't.

As for the second part, I was also just talking about the romance paths.

StreetMagic wrote...
And I don't know how it suffers with her. I was ****ing overjoyed to see
her. If you don't like it, that's cool, but I'm talking about romances.
Not your playthrough where you didn't care in the first place.
...
If you're just here to be a troll and say how much a character objectively sucks or something, whatever. I'm wasting my time.

Dean_the_Young puts it best.

And I am sorry, I did not intend to come off as a troll, I should have posted the link to begin with but I had trouble finding it.

[Hazegurl]

StreetMagic wrote...
I'm not paranoid. You think your some victim - which is why you jump to the defense of issues like this so much - but I'm here to say you already won. There's no reason to promote your view so much. The more you do makes it look like gloating, self-satisfaction, and smugness. You're no victim, or defending some great minority cause. You're the majority, and you'll only make people feel like **** when you come in and basically say "Deal with it".

Modifié par Hazegurl, 18 octobre 2013 - 12:18 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm not paranoid. You think your some victim - which is why you jump to the defense of issues like this so much - but I'm here to say you already won. There's no reason to promote your view so much. The more you do makes it look like gloating, self-satisfaction, and smugness. You're no victim, or defending some great minority cause. You're the majority, and you'll only make people feel like **** when you come in and basically say "Deal with it".

It's not like the series is over yet. And I legitimately do not understand what you'd want out of the game that would contradict what you said we got.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

One thing about Liara that did puzzle me.

Why does she sound so hostile towards Samara when you meet her on the AY monestary? At first I thought this was a consequence of having an attempted romance with Samara in 2. But she has the same line no matter what.

If I had to guess, she doesn't like justicars. Which is hardly surprising.

That is certainly a possiblity, though given how popular they apparently in their society, I would think that if Liara didn't like them it would have been worthy of a post mission comment when speaking to her.

[Xilizhra]

Lizardviking wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

One thing about Liara that did puzzle me.

Why does she sound so hostile towards Samara when you meet her on the AY monestary? At first I thought this was a consequence of having an attempted romance with Samara in 2. But she has the same line no matter what.

If I had to guess, she doesn't like justicars. Which is hardly surprising.

That is certainly a possiblity, though given how popular they apparently in their society, I would think that if Liara didn't like them it would have been worthy of a post mission comment when speaking to her.

I agree, although since it'd be more Liara content, I doubt many others would (at least in this thread). But she's never been afraid to be an independent thinker.

I really would have loved to go more in-depth on exploring asari society in general, including the whole Ardat-Yakshi thing.

[Hazegurl]

I also want to add that I didn't like what was done with Udina...much. I didn't like the guy but I hated the one sided "How dare you work with Cerberus, you die!" treatment. He's a council member watching his planet die and his so called allies doing nothing to help. The Turians didn't lend a hand until they realized their own planet was next and the Asari chose to sit on valuable tech that could have prepared the galaxy from the start but were more interested in their own superiority (I'm glad they lost Thessia). Everyone was looking out for themselves but somehow humans are automatically wrong for pretty much doing the same thing. I wish there was a way to talk down Udina but then again, I doubt he would remain a council member afterwards anyway.

PS: Still felt good to shoot him lol!

[Xilizhra]

The Turians didn't lend a hand until they realized their own planet was next and the Asari chose to sit on valuable tech that could have prepared the galaxy from the start but were more interested in their own superiority

Which had nothing to do with the Council.

(I'm glad they lost Thessia).

They didn't. It was invaded at the end of the war and had far less damage done to it overall than most of the other places the Reapers hit, including Earth and Palaven (the screenshot at the ending shows asari fighting in a still-intact city as opposed to the rubble of Earth).

Everyone was looking out for themselves but somehow humans are automatically wrong for pretty much doing the same thing.

Well, for outright betraying everyone else in the galaxy and being huge idiots in the bargain, yes.

[Hazegurl]

Xilizhra wrote...
Which had nothing to do with the Council.

Not completely but the Turian council member turned them down for aid and only came in secret. Thus giving the player the Primarch mission.  Mind you I don't blame them as much as I blame the Asari council member.

They didn't. It was invaded at the end of the war and had far less damage done to it overall than most of the other places the Reapers hit, including Earth and Palaven (the screenshot at the ending shows asari fighting in a still-intact city as opposed to the rubble of Earth).

Then I suppose Liara was just being a Drama Queen.

Well, for outright betraying everyone else in the galaxy and being huge idiots in the bargain, yes.

No more idiotic than the Asari sitting on intact Prothean tech since PreME1. Issues no warnings to the rest of the galaxy, giving no preparation time for anyone not even themselves, and outright dismissed Shepard right until their stupid planet started to burn. Good. I wish my Shepard could have laughed at Joker's joke and crack open a beer with him.

[Barquiel]

Shepard spends the entire game convincing other species to help her lovely Earth and leave their own (home)worlds to die. None of the other races does that!

Tactically, taking back Earth is stupid (I understand the importance of earth AFTER the citadel was moved there). It would've made more sense to either help Palaven out, or Thessia. Those two planets have a much weaker Reaper garrison. Earth has the highest reapers presence.Strategically, you want to hit the enemy where it is weak if you're outnumbered or outgunned.

[Xilizhra]

Not completely but the Turian council member turned them down for aid and only came in secret. Thus giving the player the Primarch mission. Mind you I don't blame them as much as I blame the Asari council member.

No, I mean that Tevos didn't know about the beacon either.

Then I suppose Liara was just being a Drama Queen.

The whole mission was a feel-bad one for everyone.

No more idiotic than the Asari sitting on intact Prothean tech since PreME1. Issues no warnings to the rest of the galaxy, giving no preparation time for anyone not even themselves, and outright dismissed Shepard right until their stupid planet started to burn. Good. I wish my Shepard could have laughed at Joker's joke and crack open a beer with him.

Your blaming the entire race for an Udina-like secret government cabal is utterly ridiculous.

Believe it or not, this I can agree on. Sometimes I think this war should've stretched to a quadrilogy.. there's so much to see and address (which is mostly my point about other squadmates too). But whatever. I would have liked to have seen the atmosphere on Thessia, before it really blew up with the Reaper invasion. This is the part of the MEU to present a lot politics and intrigue (besides the Citadel itself). Ardat Yakshi are interesting, but personally the Rana Thanoptis news bulletin interested me the most.

This is why I support a reboot so we can take a closer look at some of this in a hopefully less fraught environment. Ideally without humans, as that'd help avoid repeating themes.

[Barquiel]

Hazegurl wrote...

Not completely but the Turian council member turned them down for aid and only came in secret. Thus giving the player the Primarch mission.  Mind you I don't blame them as much as I blame the Asari council member.

No more idiotic than the Asari sitting on intact Prothean tech since PreME1. Issues no warnings to the rest of the galaxy, giving no preparation time for anyone not even themselves, and outright dismissed Shepard right until their stupid planet started to burn.

Palaven and Earth got hit around the same time. The first asari colonies (Illium for example) and Earth got hit around the same time. Tell me one good reason why the council races should send any ships to attack Earth in that situation. Trying to retake Earth at the beginning of the war would have been a suicide mission. To quote the codex..."Persistent rumors suggest that Udina might have been a high-functioning victim of  Reaper indoctrination. His actions played right into the Reapers' plans: even if the coup failed, it would damage Citadel governance. If it succeeded, his plan to retake Earth would likely have turned into a military blunder that Council forces could ill afford."

Seems like you didn't pay attention to the plot...

1. The Asari didn't talk to the VI at all. They couldn't activate it. That is stated numerous times by several characters. The Prothean VI only activates when Shepard arrives, due to the Cipher...or Javik's presence. The Asari did never access any information concerning the Reapers.
2. And even if somehow they could have activated the VI, Vendetta is programmed to withold the relevant information until the crucible is complete.

Modifié par Barquiel, 18 octobre 2013 - 02:48 .