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[Fardreamer]

Qistina wrote...

Qunari look a lot like the Ottoman empire with all invasion and wars with the Byzantine=Tevinter Imperium. The Turks had really good military organisation and some technology. Dreadnoughts and powder are impressive.

For me, Qunari doesn't look at all like Ottoman Empire, if want to look at technological superiority, it is ever changing...yes Ottoman is high tech at late medieval, but before that the west do have superior tech than the east with a lot of ships...look at Spain, Granada fall to Spain before Ottoman reach golden age...Christopher Columbus sail to America in 1492, Amerigo Vaspuci is before that...at that time Europe already have guns and cannons...

BW has said they originally based the Qunari off the technologically advanced Muslim civilization of the medieval time.  I'd always thought that's what they were based off as well, based on their tech and religion.

[Iakus]

The Qunari apparantly have superior technology to teh rest of Thedas: gunpowder, sanitation, warships, steel armor, etc.

But Thedas has the edge in magic. During teh Exalted Marches against the Qunari, it was the Circles that allowed them to fight the Qunari to a standstill.

[Boycott Bioware]

Fardreamer wrote...
BW has said they originally based the Qunari off the technologically advanced Muslim civilization of the medieval time. I'd always thought that's what they were based off as well, based on their tech and religion.

They are nothing like Muslims in medieval time, nothing like Ottoman and nothing like Islam.

If want to make resemblance, they look like Spartan, Sanskrit, Hindu, Communist, satan (DA2), and Mongols...nothing at all resembles Muslims

[Heimdall]

Qistina wrote...

Fardreamer wrote...
BW has said they originally based the Qunari off the technologically advanced Muslim civilization of the medieval time. I'd always thought that's what they were based off as well, based on their tech and religion.

They are nothing like Muslims in medieval time, nothing like Ottoman and nothing like Islam.

If want to make resemblance, they look like Spartan, Sanskrit, Hindu, Communist, satan (DA2), and Mongols...nothing at all resembles Muslims

To be clear, they were based off more what the Muslim empires represented to Europe during the medieval era:  A powerful foreign force of an alien culture frequently invading and, at least at some points, more technologically advanced.

[Zerker]

Qistina wrote...

Qunari look a lot like the Ottoman empire with all invasion and wars with the Byzantine=Tevinter Imperium. The Turks had really good military organisation and some technology. Dreadnoughts and powder are impressive.

For me, Qunari doesn't look at all like Ottoman Empire, if want to look at technological superiority, it is ever changing...yes Ottoman is high tech at late medieval, but before that the west do have superior tech than the east with a lot of ships...look at Spain, Granada fall to Spain before Ottoman reach golden age...Christopher Columbus sail to America in 1492, Amerigo Vaspuci is before that...at that time Europe already have guns and cannons...

To correct you, it is widely accepted that Ottoman projectile weapons were usually vastly superior to their western equivalent until the end of their expansion era. Also, the reason the Ottomans are mostly associated with cannons lies both in how early they started to use them compared to the bulk of the Europe, and the efficiency of their ranged combat and engineering(though they mostly employed the most remarkable engineers from both middle-east and europe, instead of local ones).

This is displayed during the fall of Constantiniople, during which they used cannons so large and powerful they could only fire once in a few hours, but with devastating effect on the walls(early and larger versions of the Ottoman Dardanelles Gun).

Technological superiority isn't only reason the Qunari people of Dragon Age are associated with Anatolian Turks either.
-The conflict between them and Tevinter(Byzantines),
-Being the target of multiple exalted marches(crusades),
-Being the barbaric, "heathen" newcomers to Thedas from an unknown world, who immedately started on invading, settling and assimilating.
-Using the local populace as workers and soldiers(who can rise in rank as long as they are assimilated, much like the Janissary system).
-Theocracy
-Extreme devotion to philosophy and the value given to philosophers despite not giving up the savage, violent military style.

When all of these are combined, Qunari only fits with the Ottomans/Seljuks in a medieval Europe setting.

Modifié par Maddok900, 01 octobre 2013 - 02:54 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Lord Aesir wrote...
To be clear, they were based off more what the Muslim empires represented to Europe during the medieval era: A powerful foreign force of an alien culture frequently invading and, at least at some points, more technologically advanced.

Same things can be said about Crusaders...British Empire in the east....and many more invaders including United States of America

Maddok900 wrote...
Technological superiority isn't only reason the Qunari people of Dragon Age are associated with Anatolian Turks either.
-The conflict between them and Tevinter(Byzantines),

Byzantines don't only have conflicts with the Turks, they have conflicts with everyone in a long history

-Being the target of multiple exalted marches(crusades),

Ottoman Turk was not a target of Crusades because Crusades happen BEFORE Ottoman become an empire, Jerusalem was not under Ottoman in the Crusades, it was under Umayyads, Abbasids and Fatimids

-Being the barbaric, "heathen" newcomers to Thedas from an unknown world, who immedately started on invading, settling and assimilating.

Can be said towards every invaders including Crusaders

-Using the local populace as workers and soldiers(who can rise in rank as long as they are assimilated, much like the Janissary system).

Nothing like Janissary system, Qunari is more like Hindu system with their caste system

-Theocracy
-Extreme devotion to philosophy and the value given to philosophers despite not giving up the savage, violent military style..

Can be said the same with western Crusaders, Conquistador, Spanish Inquisition, Spanish invaders in America...ect ect ect...

[wcholcombe]

Qistina wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
To be clear, they were based off more what the Muslim empires represented to Europe during the medieval era: A powerful foreign force of an alien culture frequently invading and, at least at some points, more technologically advanced.

Same things can be said about Crusaders...British Empire in the east....and many more invaders including United States of America

Maddok900 wrote...
Technological superiority isn't only reason the Qunari people of Dragon Age are associated with Anatolian Turks either.
-The conflict between them and Tevinter(Byzantines),

Byzantines don't only have conflicts with the Turks, they have conflicts with everyone in a long history

-Being the target of multiple exalted marches(crusades),

Ottoman Turk was not a target of Crusades because Crusades happen BEFORE Ottoman become an empire, Jerusalem was not under Ottoman in the Crusades, it was under Umayyads, Abbasids and Fatimids

-Being the barbaric, "heathen" newcomers to Thedas from an unknown world, who immedately started on invading, settling and assimilating.

Can be said towards every invaders including Crusaders

-Using the local populace as workers and soldiers(who can rise in rank as long as they are assimilated, much like the Janissary system).

Nothing like Janissary system, Qunari is more like Hindu system with their caste system

-Theocracy
-Extreme devotion to philosophy and the value given to philosophers despite not giving up the savage, violent military style..

Can be said the same with western Crusaders, Conquistador, Spanish Inquisition, Spanish invaders in America...ect ect ect...

This isn't a relegious debate.  The representation of the Qunari being based off the turks and such is more the difference in Science and Technology between them and Europe.  They are based off the eastern countries just as Thedas is based off of Europe.  Also, since Thedas is European, the Qunari are portrayed in the same light as the Turks were by Europeans.  Yes, other countries can be compared to that, but it is the time period and the perspective of the presentation.

Societally, my closest association to the Qunari would be a perfect Socialist state, which has never existed in Human history and I doubt ever will.

Lots of Countries can be seen as Expansionest and are portrayed that way: Orlais(France), Ferelden(England), Tevinter(Rome or Persians?? I actually have never been able to settle on who Tevinter would be), Free Marches(Greek City States), Antiva (Italy). etc etc etc.  However, it is all about the perspective, and the perspective of the Qunari matches with the perspective Europe had of the Ottoman Turks.

[Boycott Bioware]

Just accept the fact, Bioware actually make a mistake saying Qunari = Muslim, Islamic, Ottoman, Militant Islamic Borg...then there are fans or peoples who agree wholeheartedly because of their sentiment toward Muslims and Islam. The rest is cover up by Bioware trying to give positive light in that issue, but the damage have been done

Qunari is NOTHING like Muslim or Turk or Islam or even Middle East, but the thing keep on and on and each time i feel disappointed...firstly Qunari is bad, secondly they are portrayed horn headed barbaric reddish Satan-like appearance in DA2...it is a total contra from Sten of DA:O...why? Even Sten in DA:O is a unique character with unique background, but in DA2 it is destroyed and being described as Militant Islamic Borg and Ottoman Turk while they are nothing like both Muslim and Turk

[Zerker]

Byzantines don't only have conflicts with the Turks, they have conflicts with everyone in a long history

It seems to me you are trying very hard to not associate Qunari culture with the major muslim power of the middle-ages(despite the developers admitting otherwise), for some reason. But I'll play along.
Byzantines had 2 major conflicts with "newcomer" heathens during the medieval era, Arabs and Turks. Latter being the longest and most widely-known, considering that conflict was the end of their empire.

Ottoman Turk was not a target of Crusades because Crusades happen BEFORE Ottoman become an empire, Jerusalem was not under Ottoman in the Crusades, it was under Umayyads, Abbasids and Fatimids

Crusades involving Seljuk Turks:
http://en.wikipedia....nces.27_Crusade
http://en.wikipedia....eople's_Crusade
http://en.wikipedia..../Second_Crusade

Crusades directly against Ottoman Turks:
http://en.wikipedia....rusade_of_Varna
http://en.wikipedia....de_of_Nicopolis


Can be said towards every invaders including Crusaders

Read it as a cultural trait, not a moral one, in context with other points I made.


Nothing like Janissary system, Qunari is more like Hindu system with their caste system

I don't think you have any idea of what Ottoman Devshirme system is.
Let me get you through step by step,
A conquers a land.
A tries to assimilate the public.
A appoints the succesfully assimilated populace on different duties based on ther respective talents, soldiers, scientists, philosophers, governers, workers  and even grand vizier.

This is the exact policy of Qunari against their conquered subjects. I don't think the caste system in their culture is related to Ottomans; however, assigning conquered peoples to roles based on their skills certainly does resemble the Devshirme.

Can be said the same with western Crusaders, Conquistador, Spanish Inquisition, Spanish invaders in America...ect ect ect...

Again, those points are parts of a pattern, which forms the resemblence to eastern muslim culture(Ottomans at that time) together, not separately.


Edit: Had a quoting issue, had to recolor it.

Modifié par Maddok900, 01 octobre 2013 - 03:44 .

[Boycott Bioware]

wcholcombe wrote...
Lots of Countries can be seen as Expansionest and are portrayed that way: Orlais(France), Ferelden(England), Tevinter(Rome or Persians?? I actually have never been able to settle on who Tevinter would be), Free Marches(Greek City States), Antiva (Italy). etc etc etc. However, it is all about the perspective, and the perspective of the Qunari matches with the perspective Europe had of the Ottoman Turks.

If want to talk about similarities, i can say Tevinter is Abbasid empire, at that time, i mean Abbasiyah Dynasty, Muslims are magicians-like, the peak of knowledge pursuing is at Abbasid time, we got alchemists, mathematicians, physicist, physicians, wonders of technology and mysticism at the same time...most Muslims "heretics" are existed at that time...Muslim alchemists and astrologists are misunderstand as magicians

Western portrayal of Muslims of that era is what you got as "white bearded wizard wearing robes using astrolabe", because astrology reach it's peak in Abbasid time, and 1001 Nights (Arabian Nights) stories is from this era, the story include Alladin have flying carpet, genie in the bottle and so many magical stories

Mages are Muslims in DA world...Templar fight against Mages, the Crusade have Knight Templar troop, that is the Church military order to fight Muslims in Crusades...in DA, Templar fight Mages...

"When Mages (Muslims) of Tevinter Imperium (Umayyad/Abbasid/Fatimid) found the way to enter the Golden City (Jerusalem)...."

[Iakus]

I always imagined Tevinter as being closer to the Byzantine Empire.

But really, no nation or race in Thedas has direct parallels. They just borrow certain aspects.

[Dominus]

Relatively. As Darth Brotarian pointed out on Page 1, they're a very efficient and organized race. I'm not expecting them to look like the cyberdemon from Doom near the end, but it seems they do have a technological advantage.

Have we really seen that much of the Qun thus far between DA:O and DA2 outside of lore?

[Boycott Bioware]

It seems to me you are trying very hard to not associate Qunari culture with the major muslim power of the middle-ages(despite the developers admitting otherwise), for some reason. But I'll play along.

Yes i will try hard not to relate Qunari with Muslims, Turk, Ottoman and Islam even if i got banned from BSN forever and ever because i am a Muslim, i don't like Muslims being portrayed as giant reddish horn headed brutal creature in DA

Byzantines had 2 major conflicts with "newcomer" heathens during the medieval era, Arabs and Turks. Latter being the longest and most widely-known, considering that conflict was the end of their empire.

Byzantine was Roman, what Tevinter was? Did Tevinter fall to Qunari? No isn't it? So Tevinter is not Byzantium

Byzantine have many attacks from barbarians including Atilla The Hun, Byzantine also have war with Persians, Byzantine conflict with the Turk is just a new form of old conflict.

Crusades involving Seljuk Turks:
http://en.wikipedia....nces.27_Crusade
http://en.wikipedia....eople's_Crusade
http://en.wikipedia..../Second_Crusade

Crusades directly against Ottoman Turks:
http://en.wikipedia....rusade_of_Varna
http://en.wikipedia....de_of_Nicopolis

Seljuk Turk is not Ottoman Turk, you said Qunari is Ottoman because being a target of MULTIPLE Exalted March in which you said similar to Crusade, while you only give TWO in which directly toward Ottoman...two is not multiple

I don't think you have any idea of what Ottoman Devshirme system is.
Let me get you through step by step,
A conquers a land.
A tries to assimilate the public.
A appoints the succesfully assimilated populace on different duties based on ther respective talents, soldiers, scientists, philosophers, governers, workers and even grand vizier.

Same thing done by any conquerors, your point is moot. Greeks and Romans do that long before everyone

[Herr Uhl]

Qistina wrote...

Byzantine was Roman, what Tevinter was? Did Tevinter fall to Qunari? No isn't it? So Tevinter is not Byzantium

Rome fell to other forces before Constantinople was taken.

[Zerker]

Qistina wrote...
Yes i will try hard not to relate Qunari with Muslims, Turk, Ottoman and Islam even if i got banned from BSN forever and ever because i am a Muslim, i don't like Muslims being portrayed as giant reddish horn headed brutal creature in DA

Then I'll not waste my time arguing with religion.

However, I 'l tell you that I'm not a muslim, but I'm Turkish, and I think being a horned giant is much cooler than being a defenseless ape which is the normal human form. Being offended by something like this is confusing to say the least.

Modifié par Maddok900, 01 octobre 2013 - 04:17 .

[imperfect soul]

I the Qunari are most high tech then most of the races. But you have to also understand that no one knows how high tech they are as to the armor they really don't need it because of there size and strength.  I believe that the qunari are holding back

[Boycott Bioware]

Then I'll not waste my time arguing with religion.

However, I 'l tell you that I'm not a muslim, but I'm Turkish, and I think being a horned giant is much cooler than being a defenseless ape which is the normal human form. Being offended by something like this is confusing to say the least.

Power to you then...I like Sten of DA:O, i hate DA2 Qunari

And Qunari religion is not the same with the Chantry, not same at all, while Islam and Christianity have similarity, Muslims believe in Jesus, but not the same belief as Christians believe in Jesus, it is a different story of the same person (Islam, Christian and Judaism are Abrahamic religion). Tevinter have it's own Chantry with different version of Andraste than any other Chantry Kingdom...see that?

Even in religious point of view Qunari is nothing like Muslim, Ottoman Turk or even Militant Islamic Borg whatever because Qunari religion the Qun is not the same and have no similarity with Andrasterians

Modifié par Qistina, 01 octobre 2013 - 04:55 .

[wcholcombe]

OK, it isn't saying their culture is the same, neither is it saying they are evil. Who cares that they have horns, there is nothing saying qunari are evil. Heck in the comics they are portrayed in part as the good guys. DA is all about perspectives.

If any side has been portrayed as evil other then the dark spawn it has been Tevinter.

[Boycott Bioware]

Andersbomb the Chantry and spark the Mage-Templar war, Osama blow up WTC and spark War on Terrorism, Blood Mages going beserk and doing act of terrorism killing everyone like Muslim suicide bombers, i don't mind that at all, really, i don't mind it at all....but saying Qunari the reddish horn headed satanic-like creature is Muslims and then relate them with Islam and Ottoman Turk is BS

Just want to say there are many games are intentionally attack on Islam, and many of those games got banned in some countries already, and they even goes to parliaments in some countries....so stop it before it become a big issue, stop saying Qunari is "Militant Islam", "Muslim" and "Ottoman Turk" before DA:I goes into parliaments of some countries

[Zerker]

Qistina wrote...

Andersbomb the Chantry and spark the Mage-Templar war, Osama blow up WTC and spark War on Terrorism, Blood Mages going beserk and doing act of terrorism killing everyone like Muslim suicide bombers, i don't mind that at all, really, i don't mind it at all....but saying Qunari the reddish horn headed satanic-like creature is Muslims and then relate them with Islam and Ottoman Turk is BS

Just want to say there are many games are intentionally attack on Islam, and many of those games got banned in some countries already, and they even goes to parliaments in some countries....so stop it before it become a big issue, stop saying Qunari is "Militant Islam", "Muslim" and "Ottoman Turk" before DA:I goes into parliaments of some countries

You are ****ing kidding me right.

[Boycott Bioware]

Maddok900 wrote...
You are ****ing kidding me right.

No, i am not kidding

[Star fury]

Maddok900 wrote...
Technological superiority isn't only reason the Qunari people of Dragon Age are associated with Anatolian Turks either.
-The conflict between them and Tevinter(Byzantines),
-Being the target of multiple exalted marches(crusades),
-Being the barbaric, "heathen" newcomers to Thedas from an unknown world, who immedately started on invading, settling and assimilating.
-Using the local populace as workers and soldiers(who can rise in rank as long as they are assimilated, much like the Janissary system).
-Theocracy
-Extreme devotion to philosophy and the value given to philosophers despite not giving up the savage, violent military style.

When all of these are combined, Qunari only fits with the Ottomans/Seljuks in a medieval Europe setting.

Exactly. I can add that the Ottomans were vastly strong and only combine might of Europe stopped them, Lepanto and then siege of Vienne when Polish king saved Holy Roman Empire. HRE, Poland, Venice, Hungary and others who fought against them.

You can compare that with Chantry Crusades Exalted Marches against Qunari that only stopped their advance, mostly by slaughtering converted Rivaini non-combatatants. Also Orthodox Byzantine empire which was an heir to Roman empire. Like reformed Tevinter Imperium which has their own Chantry with the Black Divine.

Modifié par Star fury, 01 octobre 2013 - 08:52 .

[Star fury]

Qistina wrote...

Andersbomb the Chantry and spark the Mage-Templar war, Osama blow up WTC and spark War on Terrorism, Blood Mages going beserk and doing act of terrorism killing everyone like Muslim suicide bombers, i don't mind that at all, really, i don't mind it at all....but saying Qunari the reddish horn headed satanic-like creature is Muslims and then relate them with Islam and Ottoman Turk is BS

Just want to say there are many games are intentionally attack on Islam, and many of those games got banned in some countries already, and they even goes to parliaments in some countries....so stop it before it become a big issue, stop saying Qunari is "Militant Islam", "Muslim" and "Ottoman Turk" before DA:I goes into parliaments of some countries

LMAO.

[Sporothrix]

wcholcombe wrote...
Societally, my closest association to the Qunari would be a perfect Socialist state, which has never existed in Human history and I doubt ever will.

Actually, it's antithesis of "perfect Socialist state", because Socialism is based on egalitarianism. There's nothing egalitarian in Qunari's society, it's based on strict social hierarchy. It's example of "vertical collectivism", while ideal socialist society would be based on "horizontal collectivism" (with addition of "horizontal individualism"):


Collectivism can be divided into horizontal collectivism and vertical
collectivism. Horizontal collectivism stresses collective
decision-making among equal individuals, and is thus usually based on
decentralization and egalitarianism. Vertical collectivism is based on
hierarchical structures of power and on moral and cultural conformity,
and is therefore based on centralization and hierarchy.

[Former_Fiend]

Johun wrote...

The Tevinters surely make use of expendable support troops, possibly slave soldiers. Against a large number of weaker opponents, armor would be very useful.

Sebastian also compares a Genlock Alpha to "...an entire Tevinter shieldwall, in one creature". Given the other similarities to the Roman Empire, we can assume that would be something like this.

My point being that the Tevinter Imperium has more mundane soldiers, professional or not.

Then again, the Venatori don't wear any armor on their torso either.

Maybe it's just the fashionable thing to do in northern Thedas.

On this note(missed this post earlier) I'm going to point out that any force that deploys sheild walls against an enemy that fields cannons is asking to be slaughtered.