194 réponses à ce sujet

[Star fury]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Johun wrote...

The Tevinters surely make use of expendable support troops, possibly slave soldiers. Against a large number of weaker opponents, armor would be very useful.

Sebastian also compares a Genlock Alpha to "...an entire Tevinter shieldwall, in one creature". Given the other similarities to the Roman Empire, we can assume that would be something like this.

My point being that the Tevinter Imperium has more mundane soldiers, professional or not.

On this note(missed this post earlier) I'm going to point out that any force that deploys sheild walls against an enemy that fields cannons is asking to be slaughtered.

That formation is called testudo. It was way outdated in Medieval which is direct parallel for DA setting.

Given the time period of DA we should see something like this: 

http://t2.gstatic.co...Y9KGQytM_GXIMg 

Modifié par Star fury, 02 octobre 2013 - 12:07 .

[Former_Fiend]

My point stands; a shield wall formation, regardless of the specific style, would be ineffective against cannon fire.

[Star fury]

Former_Fiend wrote...

My point stands; a shield wall formation, regardless of the specific style, would be ineffective against cannon fire.

I'm not opposing you. Shieldwall is usually useless against knights and other heavy cavalry unless they have lots of pikes. Parthians taught a lesson that standing in testudo when cataphracts are charging you is a bad idea. But bear in mind that early cannons were useless in field combat - too slow to reload and generally too slow, too heavy. Cannons  were used mostly for sieges.   

[Heimdall]

Qistina wrote...

Andersbomb the Chantry and spark the Mage-Templar war, Osama blow up WTC and spark War on Terrorism, Blood Mages going beserk and doing act of terrorism killing everyone like Muslim suicide bombers, i don't mind that at all, really, i don't mind it at all....but saying Qunari the reddish horn headed satanic-like creature is Muslims and then relate them with Islam and Ottoman Turk is BS

Just want to say there are many games are intentionally attack on Islam, and many of those games got banned in some countries already, and they even goes to parliaments in some countries....so stop it before it become a big issue, stop saying Qunari is "Militant Islam", "Muslim" and "Ottoman Turk" before DA:I goes into parliaments of some countries

...Wut 

You don't want Qunari compared to Islam's role in medieval European politics because they have horns?

[Former_Fiend]

Star fury wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

My point stands; a shield wall formation, regardless of the specific style, would be ineffective against cannon fire.

I'm not opposing you. Shieldwall is usually useless against knights and other heavy cavalry unless they have lots of pikes. Parthians taught a lesson that standing in testudo when cataphracts are charging you is a bad idea. But bear in mind that early cannons were useless in field combat - too slow to reload and generally too slow, too heavy. Cannons  were used mostly for sieges.   

Well, as I mentioned earlier, as we've never seen qunari cannons in action, we can't say for sure whether they're currently fielding "early" seige cannons or if they've moved on to more advanced, mobile versions.

[Heimdall]

Qistina wrote...

Byzantine was Roman, what Tevinter was? Did Tevinter fall to Qunari? No isn't it? So Tevinter is not Byzantium

Before it fell to the Ottomans, the Eastern Roman Empire spent centuries defending itself off and on from invasions headed by Islamic caliphates and empires.

Sounds like Tevinter and the Qunari to me.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 02 octobre 2013 - 01:30 .

[Johun]

Well, we do see them in action in Until We Sleep.


However, since it's a single panel depicting an amphibious assault, we can't really extrapolate loading time or mobility. The only thing it tells is how effective Qunari cannons are against fortifications, that is to say, very.

[Star fury]

Johun wrote...

Well, we do see them in action in Until We Sleep.

However, since it's a single panel depicting an amphibious assault, we can't really extrapolate loading time or mobility. The only thing it tells is how effective Qunari cannons are against fortifications, that is to say, very.

Qunari could use cannons with some magic too. Now it's only wild guess.

[Chaos Hammer]

Am I the only one who thinks that claiming that the Qunari couldn't possibly be based on the Turks is complete denial, I mean for gods sake, Par Vollen and seheron, Malta and cypress? The Byzantine empire was NOT the same as the Roman Emipre, it was the eastern half, guess what else was split..... the Catholic church....and who cares about whether the Ottoman-adjacent Qunari have horns? The Elves are inspired by the Jews.... does that mean that the elves have pointy ears is anti Semitic? no! Its just a creative decision...

Edit: Sorry I ranted.... just was a little frustrated by earlier posts.

Modifié par Chaos Hammer, 02 octobre 2013 - 01:50 .

[Dayze]

Qistina wrote...

Eastern peoples (Arab, Turk, Berber) rely on speed and mobility in combat, because the terrain is mostly wide and desert, Turk originally live on mountains and steppes. So eastern peoples use light armor and light weaponry. While western peoples rely on durability and momentum, that is why the west have full plate armor and heavy weaponry. But since the Crusade the west have adopt eastern style of combat and well the east adopt western style. Heavy armor are mostly worn by western nobles, it is to protect them from being killed

Persians however a bit different, despite of hot climate and open wide battlefield, they do develop heavy armor and heavy troops, these troop are called "Immortals", they are Cataphract, heavy mail armored cavalry (the 300 movie portray them WRONGLY, they have become masked monster ninjas in that movie). Cataphract being adopted by Byzantium there you got "Katapraktoi" cavalry...furthermore, this model of cavalry being adopted by Europeans

So, if Qunari is based on eastern peoples, it is not true, eastern peoples are not like how Qunari is shown in DA2, DA:O Sten is still acceptable

Looking at them in DA2; the appearance of the Qunari comes off as basically Native Americans mixed with Samurai's but that might just be me.

[Boycott Bioware]

If Qunari is "representing" Ottoman Turk and Tevinter "representing" Byzantium, then Qunari religion must be similar with Tevinter, as i said earlier Islam and Christianity only have little different, both are Abrahamic religion, since the Qun is not Andrasterians belief, that is believing "The Maker" and "Andraste", then Qunari cannot be "representing" Ottoman Turk or Muslim or Islam

If Qunari is indeed representing Ottoman, then the Qun must have similarities with Andrasterians in some way

In anyway, the Mongols wipe out Abbasid empire, that lead to Turkish rising....Turk was slaves and mercenaries of Abbasid empire, some of them hold the office...isn't that similar with Tevinter? Tevinter is Abbasid empire and Qunari are Mongols horde

[Heimdall]

Qistina wrote...

If Qunari is "representing" Ottoman Turk and Tevinter "representing" Byzantium, then Qunari religion must be similar with Tevinter, as i said earlier Islam and Christianity only have little different, both are Abrahamic religion, since the Qun is not Andrasterians belief, that is believing "The Maker" and "Andraste", then Qunari cannot be "representing" Ottoman Turk or Muslim or Islam

If Qunari is indeed representing Ottoman, then the Qun must have similarities with Andrasterians in some way

In anyway, the Mongols wipe out Abbasid empire, that lead to Turkish rising....Turk was slaves and mercenaries of Abbasid empire, some of them hold the office...isn't that similar with Tevinter? Tevinter is Abbasid empire and Qunari are Mongols horde

You are trying very hard to invalidate this, and sorry but "Not every part of it is the same so none of it is similar at all" is not a logical argument.

We already know Thedas is constructed on vague similarities to mid to late medieval European history.  In much of that history the foreign juggernaught poised for invasion was an Islamic empire.  I don't know why this bothers you so much.  It's an inspiration not an allegory.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 02 octobre 2013 - 05:51 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Don't put too much into how some people keep seeing how Thedas aspects of the real world. The conflict might have been inspired by the Ottoman vs Byzantine conflicts, but the cultures shares very little. Qunari does not share much with Ottomans, and Tevinter doesn't share much with Byzantines.

[Heimdall]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Don't put too much into how some people keep seeing how Thedas aspects of the real world. The conflict might have been inspired by the Ottoman vs Byzantine conflicts, but the cultures shares very little. Qunari does not share much with Ottomans, and Tevinter doesn't share much with Byzantines.

I and most others realize this.  We just don't see the point in denying the inspiration entirely.

[Chaos Hammer]

Qistina wrote...

If Qunari is "representing" Ottoman Turk and Tevinter "representing" Byzantium, then Qunari religion must be similar with Tevinter, as i said earlier Islam and Christianity only have little different, both are Abrahamic religion, since the Qun is not Andrasterians belief, that is believing "The Maker" and "Andraste", then Qunari cannot be "representing" Ottoman Turk or Muslim or Islam

If Qunari is indeed representing Ottoman, then the Qun must have similarities with Andrasterians in some way

In anyway, the Mongols wipe out Abbasid empire, that lead to Turkish rising....Turk was slaves and mercenaries of Abbasid empire, some of them hold the office...isn't that similar with Tevinter? Tevinter is Abbasid empire and Qunari are Mongols horde

Bioware has openly said that the mongols are one of the influences on the Qunari, but they serve a much closer resemblance to the Ottomans. Rivain. which has been posed as a surrogate Spain, partially converted to the Qun but Nationalist and Andratian factions killed the converts.... sounds an awful lot like the Spanish inquisition and the expulsion or muslims from Spain. your whole premise that to be an allusion to Islam, the Qun MUST have similarities to Andrastian ideas fails to realize one important premise, Artistic license. The devs wanted to make the Qun vastly different, so the did, the religion itself is not the point, it's perception by the common man is, and I have a feeling that in the Middle ages Islam and Catholicism did not come across as "similar" whatever the actuality may be.

None of the nations of Thedas are exact replicas, but the developers had set countries in mind as templates. 

[Boycott Bioware]

In Tevinter, there are many Elven slaves and mercenaries, some Elven hold office especially if they are Mages...that similar with Abbasid Empire political structure especially in Harun Ar-Rashid era, there are many Turkish slaves and mercenaries, some Turks even hold important office, when Abbasid fall to Mongols invaders, these Turk rebels and establish their own kingdom at Armenian area, then they fought the Mongols later, at the same time Crusades happen, then Fatimid rise in the south up to Saladin era...

Tevinter is nothing like Byzantium...it is more like Abbasid

The Mongols are superior than Muslim empire at that era, they have cannons, the Timurid Mongols even have cannons mounted on elephants. Muslims learns to create cannons and guns is from the Chinese-Mongols, they who originally having that technology, the Chinese who the first creating fire-crackers, they use them in their festivals

Edit : Historians and orientalists usually focus on Mediterranian area, not looking at far east, actually in medieval Europe time and Islamic golden age time, the far east is far superior in technology than Mediterranian area..."learn, even as far as China" is the most popular Muslim prophet quote

Modifié par Qistina, 02 octobre 2013 - 06:13 .

[Chaos Hammer]

Greek Orthodox = Imperial Chantry

Tevinter is all that remains of the great empire, like Byzantium was for Rome. Your whole Abbasid theory doesn't fit with the rest of the real world counterparts.

[Heimdall]

Qistina wrote...


Tevinter is nothing like Byzantium...it is more like Abbasid

The Mongols are superior than Muslim empire at that era, they have cannons, the Timurid Mongols even have cannons mounted on elephants. Muslims learns to create cannons and guns is from the Chinese-Mongols, they who originally having that technology, the Chinese who the first creating fire-crackers, they use them in their festivals

Edit : Historians and orientalists usually focus on Mediterranian area, not looking at far east, actually in medieval Europe time and Islamic golden age time, the far east is far superior in technology than Mediterranian area..."learn, even as far as China" is the most popular Muslim prophet quote

First off, Byzantium had many slaves itself and Goths were known to hold office at times.  Not that it matters because nobody is making that type of comparison here.  Second, Thedas and Tevinter all take some cues from European history.  You really think they jumped over to the mongols invading the Abbasids for that when examples that fit more closely to the power dynamic of Thedas?

Lastly, I can't imagine why you'd think it better to have the power hungry blood sacrificing dragon worshippers be based off Islamic empires rather than the Qunari.

[Chaos Hammer]

^^ Right?

[Boycott Bioware]

Abbasid was the peak of of knowledge pursue by Muslim, the founder of Abbasid was called As Sabah (correct me if i spell it wrongly, Arabic is funny that way), it means "the one who spill BLOOD", Abbasid rebel against Umayyad and spill many blood...so there i can relate with "BLOOD Magic"....it is said that too many blood being spilled when the dynasty rise to power.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Each civilization of Thedas has taken inspiration from some civilization of our world, that is inevitable. But none of them mirror our world perfectly. Some people cling desperately to the areas where they do mirror our world. However, you really shouldn't focus on that, instead try to percieve each nation on Thedas, from the perspective of Thedas alone.

[Boycott Bioware]

If you guys watch Kevin Costner version of Robin Hood, there is a character named 'Azim played by Morgan Freeman, a Muslim Berber, western called Moorish or Saracen, in this movie 'Azim is magician-like and his mortal enemy is a witch named Morgana. There is a scene 'Azim throwing sulphur into fire and it booms, Friar Tuck said "you are truly a wizard!"

Muslims at that time was mistaken as wizards and magicians, Muslim alchemist and astronomers is what western fantasy portrayed as "wizards", wearing robe, wearing big hat, having beards, carrying staff...there is no western/Europeans look like that, only Arabs and Middle Eastern

So in that movie, the producer relate the witch Morgana with 'Azim, Morgana fear 'Azim and there is a dialogue when Little John talk about that witch, 'Azim said "a witch?", the same time there is a scene Morgana screaming in fear because she predict "a painted man" who will kill her...

During the time, Friar Tuck don't like Robin befriend with 'Azim because of the sentiment and saying 'Azim is working with devils that make him can do many "wonders", but then realize his mistake

So, what i mean is, "Magicians" is Muslims in medieval era

[Zerker]

Qistina, I already said I won't be arguing with you further. However, I will correct some of the historical mistakes you have been spilling.
When the Mongol invasions(Ilkhanid sect) hit the middle-east, there was already a Turkic sultanate in Anatolia, an off-shoot of the Great Seljuk Khanate.
http://en.wikipedia....ultanate_of_Rum
Which was defeated by the Mongols. It wasn't until Baybars Khan-Sultan, leader of the Turkic mamelukes(ex-slaves that the Abbasids employed) that the Turkic tribes started fighting back and drove the Ilkhanid Mongols out of the area.

Mongols were not the instrument of Turks rising to power, their invasion only freed the Turkic slaves and mercenaries the Arabs employed in Syria and Egypt, Anatolian Turks fell into civil war until the rise of Osman.

That being said, Timurids were not Mongolian. they were a Turco-Mongol confederation much like every other Ghengisid dynasty except the lands of Ögedei Khan. The other ones, being founded in Turkic territories under the influence of Turkic tribes they relied on(mostly for military manpower) such as Uyghurs and Kipchaks, couldn't protect their identity for more than a few years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurids
http://en.wikipedia....hagatai_Khanate
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Golden_Horde

And lastly, Mongols did not use cannons during the initial invasion as they did not have any, they were mere steppe nomads without any technological advancement and relied almost solely on mounted combat. It was Ilkhanid Mongols who adopted the gunpowder from muslim engineers of Khorasan, then used it against Baybars but ultimately failed.

Modifié par Maddok900, 02 octobre 2013 - 08:04 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Not technologically advanced enough that they couldn't be taken down by the combined forces of Thedas.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'd say it was more like a draw. Aside from Par Vollen, the territorial gains/losses for both sides at the end of the Qunari Wars was almost exactly the same as before it started. It was  a victory for the humans in that they bascially achieved their objectives and the Qunari failed in theirs, but the Qunari didn't face a defeat in the same way the Axis Powers in World War 2 did, for example.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 02 octobre 2013 - 08:16 .