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[Lord Raijin]

Usergnome wrote...

Drasanil wrote...

Great Character? Jowan was a whiny dullard and a complete tool, the only mistake Bioware made with regards to him was that they didn't let you kill him off in the Origin. Would have been awesome to have the option of simply running over to Gregoire and get him sorted the moment he tried to ask for your help.

Well, you can atleast run off to Irving, but he doesn't stop Jowan because he wants to blame Lilly too.

I disagree with the OP, but not strongly. I wouldn't have a huge issue with Jowan being a part member, but I wouldn't look at him and wish he was one. He was whiny, weak, and stupid. And I just disliked him. Besides, he sided with Loghain to poison Eamon, and used Blood Magic to escape the Circle.

He'd be like Oghren for me. Some people love him, but I just don't care for him.

Jowan was duped by Loghain to poison Eamon with false promises. Loghain saw that a mage was on the run from the templars, and used that for his own advances. To keep this from spreading he had the Templar that was pursuing him arrested and illegally locked up in Howe estate. That should not be hold against Jowan. He was in a tight position at the time.

[Thomas Andresen]

People keep saying No on bringing Jowan back, but I'm pretty sure the OP isn't saying they want to see Jowan brought back at all, just that they don't want the same mistake made again of having a half-developed character scrapped rather than brought into the final game.

That is how I read it. I don't like using arguments like this, but what the OP wants sounds dangerously close to a game that will end up being developed indefinitely. This is why I don't think writers should share tidbits like that in the first place.

It is unfortunate that they had to cut a potential party member, but such is game development. There will always be something that gets cut. There will always be one or other major character that ends up being reduced to a minor one. And the other way around.

You shouldn't miss this part of Gaider's post though:

He'd have to have been rendered less whiny, though. Just saying.

[CynicalShep]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Silfren wrote...

That doesn't make her a hypocrite. I'm in the camp that says blood magic is merely a tool. A dangerous one, but not an inherently evil one. But even if it were, Wynne's position doesn't make her a hypocrite. There's a world of difference between her situation and her opinion that blood magic is evil.

Theirs a deleted cutscene where Wynne confronts her Blood mage warden right in front of First Enchanter Irving and Knight-Commander Greagoir. Bioware removed it because it was game breaking. I find it hypocrical of her to confront the Warden when she she has a lot of skeletons locked inside of her own closet.

The only reason why I bring Wynne along for the ride is for her medic powers.

it was scrapped for a reason => it's not in the game => you can't use it as evidence that Wynne is hypocritical. I'm sure there's a plethora of stupid/ridiculous ideas that were cut from the game. This is but one of them. I'm no Wynne supporter (Morrigan is my favorite DAO dudette) and I seldom play Mage characters but you clearly have an agenda. I'm glad Jowan didn't make it into the game because I don't think he had anything meaningful enough going on to make a big impact on the story.

[cjones91]

AresKeith wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Silfren wrote...

That doesn't make her a hypocrite.  I'm in the camp that says blood magic is merely a tool.  A dangerous one, but not an inherently evil one.  But even if it were, Wynne's position doesn't make her a hypocrite.  There's a world of difference between her situation and her opinion that blood magic is evil.

Theirs a deleted cutscene where Wynne confronts her Blood mage warden right in front of First Enchanter Irving and Knight-Commander Greagoir. Bioware removed it because it was game breaking. I find it hypocrical of her to confront the Warden when she she has a lot of skeletons locked inside of her own closet.

The only reason why I bring Wynne along for the ride is for her medic powers.

So your calling her a hypocrite over a deleted scene?

Plus the fact that bonding with a spirit is nothing like bonding with a demon

Yeah it is,Anders was corrupted by Justice who in turn was corrupted by him,even Wynne is a different person once Faith takes her over.

[Orian Tabris]

The reason Jowen is not a candidate, is because all of the possible Grey Wardens are known to Duncan, before he goes there. Also, Jowan was considered by Irving and Greagoir as one who to make tranquil, before allowing them to attempt the Harrowing. Thus, Duncan never found out about him, prior to going to the Ferelden Circle. There was never any reason for Jowan to be made a Grey Warden, whether or not he was in fact capable of successfully completing the Harrowing.

EA is right, you are just biased towards him. Just because you think he should have stayed a companion, does not mean he was any better for a place as a companion, than the others.

I would like to point out, that Daveth - though he failed the Joining - was only willing to go, because it meant he would not be hung, while Ser Jory went, purely because he won a tournament, and Duncan picked. You think they had the "perfect mentality? We don't know if Ser Jory could have survived the Joining, so that point in your argument is invalid.

The idea that you can "spice up the story by indicating that not all blood mages are evil and do evil things" is ever present in the Warden him/herself. Just because you can be a blood mage and tell Wynne, does not mean you must be evil - BioWare tried not to restrict how the player creates their Warden/s' personality - you could easily go about it in a less-than-intentionally-evil way. She will fight you, no matter what you say after telling her that you are a blood mage.

Ultimately, it was Duncan's decision who to make a Warden, not BioWare's. BioWare, themselves, are never mentioned in the game's lore, by which you are basing your argument/point that Jowan not being a companion was a mistake.

Mistake? Your opinion is a mistake.

[addiction21]

cjones91 wrote...

Yeah it is,Anders was corrupted by Justice who in turn was corrupted by him,even Wynne is a different person once Faith takes her over.

No Justice was being corrupted before he ever even entered Anders and Anders did nothing to help.  Go actually play and pay attention to justice in DAO:A.

[Thomas Andresen]

Plus the fact that bonding with a spirit is nothing like bonding with a demon

Actually, it is not so different. Though I don't think her and Anders' situations are at all similar. Justice is entirely a part of Anders, but I'm not sure that the spirit that saved Wynne ever entirely left the fade.

[AresKeith]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Plus the fact that bonding with a spirit is nothing like bonding with a demon

Actually, it is not so different. Though I don't think her and Anders' situations are at all similar. Justice is entirely a part of Anders, but I'm not sure that the spirit that saved Wynne ever entirely left the fade.

True they aren't so different, but they're not the same in the sense the OP is talking

[Lord Raijin]

Orian Tabris wrote...

The reason Jowen is not a candidate, is because all of the possible Grey Wardens are known to Duncan, before he goes there. Also, Jowan was considered by Irving and Greagoir as one who to make tranquil, before allowing them to attempt the Harrowing. Thus, Duncan never found out about him, prior to going to the Ferelden Circle. There was never any reason for Jowan to be made a Grey Warden, whether or not he was in fact capable of successfully completing the Harrowing.

Jowan escaped prior to Duncan saving your mage warden ass from getting a good beating by Greagoir (If you assisted him). He died in Ostagar.

Recruiting Jowan to become a Grey Warden.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 01 octobre 2013 - 02:24 .

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Yeah it is,Anders was corrupted by Justice who in turn was corrupted by him,even Wynne is a different person once Faith takes her over.

No Justice was being corrupted before he ever even entered Anders and Anders did nothing to help.  Go actually play and pay attention to justice in DAO:A.

I did pay attention and I know Justice was becoming attached to the mortal world.However it was Anders' anger and hatred for the Circles and Templars that caused Justice to completely morph into a different entity.

[AresKeith]

cjones91 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Yeah it is,Anders was corrupted by Justice who in turn was corrupted by him,even Wynne is a different person once Faith takes her over.

No Justice was being corrupted before he ever even entered Anders and Anders did nothing to help.  Go actually play and pay attention to justice in DAO:A.

I did pay attention and I know Justice was becoming attached to the mortal world.However it was Anders' anger and hatred for the Circles and Templars that caused Justice to completely morph into a different entity.

Then that doesn't really go against what I said about Spirit possession and demon possession no being the same

[Maconbar]

Jowan also used the Litany of Excuses on my warden. It was very annoying.

[Lord Raijin]

AresKeith wrote...

So your calling her a hypocrite over a deleted scene?

Plus the fact that bonding with a spirit is nothing like bonding with a demon

I'm calling her a hypocrite because shes against the use of blood magic yet she allows herself to be possessed by a spirit.  This deleted cutscene could very well happen if the scene wasn't game breaking. In fact BioWare was actually reconsidering the option until they realize that gameplay wise it could not happen that way.

And really? Do you think the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander would give this old woman a pat on the shoulders had I came back to the Circle tower, with her, and told them what she told me?

Silfren wrote...

I'm aware of that scene, but it's kind of
a stupid thing to bring up, since having been deleted it has no bearing
on the canon lore. My point stands.  Wynne's not being a hypocrite
because the two situations are not exactly comparable.

I disagree. It's not stupid to bring it up and I've already explained why on top

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 01 octobre 2013 - 02:45 .

[CynicalShep]

Filament wrote...

Perhaps they should simply not make the mistake of telling us what the cut content was, as we'll always complain without understanding there will always be cut content.

^

[addiction21]

cjones91 wrote...

I did pay attention and I know Justice was becoming attached to the mortal world.However it was Anders' anger and hatred for the Circles and Templars that caused Justice to completely morph into a different entity.

Then you were not paying attention, because justice was already being twisted by a need for vengeance for Kristoff and his wife long before ever becoming attached to Anders.

Anders couldn't even say where he ended and Justice began so how can you say its all Anders anger and hatred? Other then your typical "The chantry and the Templars are at fault for every bad thing that happens in Thedas" rhetoric.

[AresKeith]

Lord Raijin wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

So your calling her a hypocrite over a deleted scene?

Plus the fact that bonding with a spirit is nothing like bonding with a demon

I'm calling her a hypocrite because shes against the use of blood magic yet she allows herself to be possessed by a spirit.  This deleted cutscene could very well happen if the scene wasn't game breaking. In fact BioWare was actually reconsidering the option until they realize that gameplay wise it could not happen that way.

She didn't really have a choice since she was like... dead

But your still trying to call her a hypocrite over a scene that's still not in the game

Your claim is still invalid

And really? Do you think the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander would give this old woman a pat on the shoulders had I came back to the Circle tower, with her, and told them what she told me?

Ok and?

Do Spirit possessions try to go on a rampage and kill everyone? No

[Br3admax]

Spirit healers don't use blood magic so there is no hypocrisy. A spirit keeping you alive is in noway similar to summoning a demon and giving it the ability to destroy and pillage. And again, BSN, the definition of possessed is not that you have a spirit inside you. We don't know either way. We a demon, it's very obvious if one is possessed or not, with a spirit, a similar change is shown. I don't think Wynne is possessed.

As to Jowan, Jowan is a horrible mage and an even worse friend. No I don't want him following me around after he poisoned a Arl. No I don't want him in my party after he had to admit to using blood magic just to help with his inferiority complex. He is obviously not someone that really needs to be around me. Letting Zevran into the party was dumb enough.

[Silfren]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

People keep saying No on bringing Jowan back, but I'm pretty sure the OP isn't saying they want to see Jowan brought back at all, just that they don't want the same mistake made again of having a half-developed character scrapped rather than brought into the final game.

That is how I read it. I don't like using arguments like this, but what the OP wants sounds dangerously close to a game that will end up being developed indefinitely. This is why I don't think writers should share tidbits like that in the first place.

It is unfortunate that they had to cut a potential party member, but such is game development. There will always be something that gets cut. There will always be one or other major character that ends up being reduced to a minor one. And the other way around.

You shouldn't miss this part of Gaider's post though:

He'd have to have been rendered less whiny, though. Just saying.

Oh, I don't disagree about the question of indefinite development.  It's unavoidable: stories change direction, either because the writers had a brilliant idea they didn't want to let go, or a previous brilliant idea turned out not to be so brilliant, or a new element gets introduced that forces other things to be changed.  I don't like it, but I certainly understand why it happens--it's hardly unique to game-based stories, but for this particular medium the narrative is probably even more subject to changes based on gameplay challenges. 

It's the nature of writing: sacrifices always have to be made, and that often means that a great story or potentially great character gets axed.  Reacting to this reality with "oh, it's ridiculous that they did that; they totally could have left him in!" just goes to show a misunderstanding of what story writing entails.

[Mr.House]

Spirits and demons are not the same, as stated by Justice in DAO:A. Justice was corrupted because of Anders anger, Faith was never corrupted at all.

Also unlike Anders, it was never Wynnes choice, the spirit simply saved her life and Wynne decided to use her time she had to help, but she always wondered why she was saved which she then concludes in Asunder is why.

Also arguing about cut content is lulz.

[Thomas Andresen]

Jowan escaped prior to Duncan saving your mage warden ass from getting a good beating by Greagoir (If you assisted him). He died in Ostagar.

Recruiting Jowan to become a Grey Warden.

Cut content is cut for a reason.

If Jowan had been a full party member, and Wynne hadn't, but the part where Wynne requests to join the Warden was still there, would you have been satisfied? I doubt it. Because there will always be content that receives such treatment. For Jowan as a full party member to be a reality, BioWare would, as Gaider says himself in the post you linked, have had to create more content, which in turn would require a bigger budget. And what about all the other characters who ended up with a minor role instead of their originally intended major ones?

Do you see where I'm going with this?

It is unfortunate, but in the end, the developers have to draw the line and say that "OK, we have no choice but to cut one of these things, to be able to fully flesh out the other." One fully fleshed out character is miles better than a jumble of half-written characters.

[Lord Raijin]

AresKeith wrote...

Ok and?

Do Spirit possessions try to go on a rampage and kill everyone? No

What does the Chantry have to say about mages like her being possessed by spirits? What does the Templar order think about that? or how about the Seekers of Truth? Abomination is an abomination.

Please provide me lore indicating that it's ok for mages like her to be posssesed by spirits, and I will reconsider my opinion of her.

[Thomas Andresen]

Spirits and demons are not the same, as stated by Justice in DAO:A.

Because a spirit wouldn't be biased.

[Mr.House]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Spirits and demons are not the same, as stated by Justice in DAO:A.

Because a spirit wouldn't be biased.

Justice goes in too much detail to not listen, along with even saying it's his worst fear to happen. Even if we're not to take Justice word we have seen enoguh demons and spirits to cleary see there is a massive diffrence.

[Thomas Andresen]

Spirits and demons are no more different than the concepts they embody.