419 réponses à ce sujet

[wolfhowwl]

I am sure the reapers have potent point defense weapons.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...
But Bioware has forgotten that for all the Reaper's strength and age, they are still living creatures (be they synthetic, organic, or a mix of the two).  Not gods.  Immortal doesn't mean invincible.

I actually agree with most of your arguments in the post. Bio could have made the Reapers defeatable, sure.

But I don't think Bio forgot anything. I don't think they ever wanted the war to be resolved by anything other than Shepard doing Something Heroic.

I see ME3 and I don't see Something Heroic.  I see bush league melodrama

Besides which a hard-fought victory is not incompatible with heroism.  And would likely have been better received.  Both because it would be seen less as a Deus ex Machina and it would be better perceived as Shepard being in charge of his own destiny ( as long as death in battle wasn't a predetermined outcome)

[RustyLH]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...
But Bioware has forgotten that for all the Reaper's strength and age, they are still living creatures (be they synthetic, organic, or a mix of the two).  Not gods.  Immortal doesn't mean invincible.

I actually agree with most of your arguments in the post. Bio could have made the Reapers defeatable, sure.

But I don't think Bio forgot anything. I don't think they ever wanted the war to be resolved by anything other than Shepard doing Something Heroic.

I see ME3 and I don't see Something Heroic.  I see bush league melodrama

Besides which a hard-fought victory is not incompatible with heroism.  And would likely have been better received.  Both because it would be seen less as a Deus ex Machina and it would be better perceived as Shepard being in charge of his own destiny ( as long as death in battle wasn't a predetermined outcome)

I personally think that if they had made the refusal ending scalable, such that if you have a very high readiness rating, you can win outright, that would have simply added a good outcome to what we have.  i think you actually nailed what leaves a sour taste in everybody's mouth.  His death is all but certain, though if you remember, he does appear to live in th destruction ending.  Now, the only thing that sucks for him is if his LI is on the Normandy since it isn't likely coming back to Earth anytime soon.  because as I said, the Destruction sequence really does appear to destroy anything that is not organic...anything mechanical.  All of the Allied ships also disappear along with the Reapers.  The Normandy is beat up very very badly unlike in the others where it appears to be largely intact.  So in other words, if Miranda is his LI, he can go reconnect with her, but Liara, Ashley and Tali, are on the Normandy, correct?  Miranda is the only LI that is not on the Normandy at the end.

Anyway, like I am saying, I don't think the endings themselves are "bad" and in fact, I think they have a lot of great qualities.  It's the fact, as you said, that no matter what you do, Shepard is a goner.

But, then as I said, that's not entirely true, because as I continue to think about this, only in two choices does he die, or more correctly, his physical being dies, but his conscious goes on to control the Reapers.  Wait, one controls, and one just adds to the catalst to create synthesis.  So he does in one, his conscious goes on in another and he practically becomes a God, and in another he lives but his choice causes the extinction of several galactic races, and the fourth, he ends the Reaper threat, but appears to knock the galaxy back into the stone age.

OK, that said, I see nothing wrong with the endings, though is would have been nice for him to have a way of using the crucible to simply defeat just the Reapers.  Maybeit could have sent out a singla that did not take down their sields but made them turn on each other and as this happened, the Allied Fleets could also add thier firepower.

I think this ending would have simply rounded out the choices, and left a sweet taste in everybody's mouth.  Not saying that particular CV scenario, but just "a scenario" where they simply win the battle.  And truthfully, who cares about ripping off Independence Day anyway?  Sure it is similar in that the shields get taken down, bu there would have been plenty of differences, and, let's be honest...if taking down shields is the issue, ID4 ripped off previous SciFi movies and TV shows.  Even Star Trek had a show where they remotely dropped other ship's shields.

OK, so in this one, don't make it a virus that gets sent out.  make it a point weapon that drains their power so that  the shields are no longer effective.  It works fast, and eliminates the shields very quickl of the enemy fleet, leaving them defenseless...or more correctly, much easier to destroy, much like Sovereign.

There...no more ripping off of ID4. 

[RustyLH]

Eterna5 wrote...

Arguing about conventional victory again are we? How new. Reminds me of the good ol days.

But seriously, the game tells you it isn't possible. Numerous times. Bioware wrote it that way and that is the way it is. Fan made hypotheticals mean absolutely nothing.

True, but it is still fun.  I mean, look at the number of people that argue abot politics...like that is ever going to change anything.  And yet it is a hobby to those people.

[RustyLH]

David7204 wrote...

So now we have a giant laser on a ship. Gosh, we're making progress in leaps and bounds, aren't we?

Ok, now I know you are very intelligent, which is evident by your posts, but that was somewhat stupid.  Think about it...the Freakin Reapers, for all their millions of years of dominance, have freakin lasers as their one and only "ship board" weapon.

The issue with the Reapers has less to do with their wepons and everything to do with their shields.  Think hard about that for a moment.  Sovereign went down amazingly easy when he had no shields left.  Now, imagine a weapon that knocks them out like that?  Even if it doesn't totally knock them out, the Normandy SR1 took one out so easy, and it didn't even have Thanix Cannons.  The normandy and many other Turian and possibly Alliance Ships now have Thanix Cannons.

And the Quarians obviously have eapons that can harm a Reaper, even when it is fully active.  So Reapers left defenseless without shields would have been easy kills.  They would have been like fire breathing dragons that lost their scales.  Still have offensive capabilities, but no defense at all.

So like I said, make the Crucible a weapon that has somehow, the ability to drain the power of their shields.  Or even knock a lot of the Reapers unconscious like Sovereign, and then they are destroyed  Do that with enough of them, and suddenly they can be defeated, even without the Crucible.  When only a handful remain and they are completely outnumbered by ships that can destroy them, even if it takes a lot fo firepwoer, it is now possible because of the weight of numbers.  Just like the Quarians against the Reaper on their home world.

[RustyLH]

[quote]David7204 wrote...

There are about a half dozen reasons why that would never work. [/quote]

Ok, this should be fun.

[quote]David7204 wrote...

[quote]1. If the galaxy really did have a super-cannon, the Reapers could easily simply stay away from it. [/quote]

Could they?  I'll save this for last...it's a good one.

[quote]2. The energy required for such a weapon would likely be impractical. [/quote]

Uhm...Element zero?  Uhm...everything else seems to be able to fire, and fire and fire... Reapers, Allied fleets, etc...  The idea doesn't have to be that it is "super gazigaillion watts of power, it could simply affect the frequency of the shields such that it knocks them out, or it in some way creates a conduit through some sort of energy beam that sucks the shields right off the Reapers.  Remember two things, this is scifi, and it isn't like the Reapers are actually that realistic, and then we havethe issues of the whole Eezo and mas Effect thing...not exactly a known fact that any of that does or even could exist...so let's not pretend that some weapon such as the Crucible could not perform some sort of function like dropping the shields of the Reapers.  The truth is, that was their strong point, so it's not out of line to think that this is the area that through the cycles, they attempted to defeat.

[quote]3. There's probably little stopping the Reapers from simply blasting such a cannon outside of it's range. [/quote]

But you assume too much.  Ever hear the phrase, "The script is all powerful?"  In short, there is much that is complete fabrications of science fiction in this story.  Reapers, Sea Creatures that invented them and now hide out on some water world, mass effect engines and relays, Prothean ruins on Mars, etc...  OK, so now, what is to stop the from writing into the script that this weapon works very quickly?  In short, when the thing shows up, it starts firing at Reapers right away.  A few might get away, but where to?  The Crucible keeps following them around the galaxy.  And in fact, while that one is working, they start in on others.  And they alos learn other shrotcuts in the process of building it and start making smaller more agile versions.  If they have the Reapers on the run, the battle is half won, and total victory is achievable.

And let's remember, there does seem to be some need for them to sleep.  if not, why wouldn't they just remain in the galaxy and roam around watching thins progress?  Why the need to retreat to dark space to hybernate?  Why leave just one to monitor progress?  So maybe they don't actually have forever to complete their harvest.  So anything that throws a monkey wrench into their plans is a good ting.

[quote]4. Even the best lasers tend to diverge and lose a good deal of their effectiveness over long ranges. The problem is much more serious in atmosphere, where the energy tends to 'bleed' into the air. [/quote]

Moot point.  The crucible would enter from the mass effect relay and head straight for them.  What is to say that the first oen's it attacks ould even know what it is?  They might just assume that once again, the doomed species try to bring big spacecraft to bear, but they will just be blown up.  Then too late, they realize this is no ordinary ship, it starts taking down their shields very quickly, and the Allied ships now start knocking them out.

OK, now, even if they get a warning out to the other Reapers, what good does that do them?  OK, so they post a sentry at the ME Relay, and it gets destroyed when the fleet and Crucible show up.  OK, then where do the other Reapers go?  They still need the Mass Effect Relays to travel easily.  OK, so now they can't do that.  Now only the Allied vessels feel free to use them.  Even with one Crucible, they could keep popping into systems via the ME relays, and knock out what Repaers are there, then advance to another system and do it again.  The Reapers are no longer feee to just come and go as they please.  now they are the ones who must shoot and scoot.  Eventually, time is not on their side, because if it worked, the Allience would start building another one.  And eventually, the weight of numbers would shift to the Allied fleets such that they overwhelm the Reapers.  Remember, the Thalix Cannons changed everything.  As we saw in the battle of Earth, the Reapers could be killed.

[quote]5. The laser would probably only be able to fire periodically. Making it helpless when not firing. [/quote]

Again, this is an assumption on your part.  Why couldn't it be a weapon that simply did not rely on brute force power.  Again, what if it was more of a finesse weapon...built specifically to deal with Reaper shields?  Why is this not possible?  Because you say so?  Sorry, but this is scifi, everythig is possible.

[quote]6. Lasers in general are pretty inefficient, and tend to get hot. Getting rid of that heat in space would be tricky.
[/quote]

Again, you are stuck in this "laser" paradigm where it is a laser of our technology.  OK, let's try it your way...it is a laser just like the ones we make here, and they require heat to be disapated away.  OK, now let's go to the first machine guns.  In fact, many of our machine guns had to be shot at slow intervals due to overheating.  Ah, but simple technologies fixed that.  Water cooled, oil cooled...gatling guns, etc...  If they really wanted to, they could even use active cooling to keep the barrels cool.  The point is made...technology advances.  You assume that a laser would require the same degree of cooling as they do today.  That's not necessarily true.  Viola!  I write into the script that this is a new technology of the crucible.  It can fire thousands of times with no need to cool.  It's as plausible as Mass Effect relays.

bottom line is, it very well could have been the story line that the Reapers always had two advantages that allowed them to win every single time, and because this had always worked, countless times, their sentient slef programming now saw no wasy this would never work... it always worked.  What worked for them is that their shields were impenetrable, and it could have been written that they also shut down the mass Effect relays, so without a Reaper IFF, you couldn't get through...but wait...the Allied Fleet could have them now.  EDI knows everything about them that they needed to know.  So they put one in every ship and regain access to the relays.  Even when and if they see what is happening, the Reapers may be at a loss as to how to fix the problem.  Maybe they would risk gettig cut off from the relays if they tried to fix the problme..or maybe it was just hard wired into the relays to accept these IFF.

Anyway, if it were written that these two things were what allowed them to be so dominant, then losing those two advantages would have been more than enough to cause them to lose.  they do in effect admit that each cycle outnumbers the Reapers.  What happens when thye can no longer just bull their way through like Sovereign did when he entered the Citadel?

Bottom line, if they wanted to, they could have created a way for their to have been one CV ending.  And like it or not, that likely would have made all the other endings much more pallatable to the fans.  I mean, it's not like everyone didn't keep replaying it from the last save, then doing each different choice to see how it ended.

OH, and so long as we have the Catalyst giving Shepard all the instructions to destroy the Reapers, control them, etc...  Nothing is out of the realm of possibility.  Seriously...think long and hard about that.  What is the one and only option that would have been pallatable to the catalyst?  Synthesis.  So why would it even tell Shepard of the other choices?  Why wouldn't just tell him that what he must do is add himself to the beam and cause the synthesis and in this way, they cycles would end?  No, the Catalyst is going to go along with itse;f being destroyed...or give up control of the Reapers to Shepard...yeah, like that would happen.

So if we can have little Star Child telling Shepard how to kill him and all the Reapers, then anything is possible.

[Mangalores]

Steelcan wrote...

Conventional Victory would require a massive re-write of ME2. And having an Ostagar like beginning to ME3 would have been just that, retreading ground. There could have been some potential to having a series of very important choices that related to the methods of how the war was fought and by whom, but BioWare decided Cerberus mooks and personality railroading was the better call.


I was personally never a huge fan of the Reaper plot in general, and the whole thing is soured by the Catalyst's bulls*t.

Why? Nothing bloody happens concerning the main plot. You kill an Arnold Schwarzenegger Reaper and the Reapers realize they could have travelled to the galaxy 300 years ago instead of faffing about.

I agree about the Reaper plot, most importantly I would say it was already broken with ME2 because there was no way out after that.

If you retained the Reaper plot it should _always_ have been about not letting them get to the galaxy like you prevent demons/ the devil comming through a portal to Earth fantasy style because once you define them this omnipotent this is the only narrative weasel way out of the mess without deus ex machina randomness. That'd be essentially a retread of ME1 though that is why ME1 works in the story department (let's ignore Sovereign having to switch off his shields to end up in a brawl with a squishy human on the Citadel).

[RustyLH]

Mangalores wrote...

(let's ignore Sovereign having to switch off his shields to end up in a brawl with a squishy human on the Citadel).

Actually, as the story goes, it was his control of Saren, and then that thing being killed that sent a shock through his system, shutting him down.  He didn't shut down until the Saren Zombie was killed.

[Reorte]

RustyLH wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

(let's ignore Sovereign having to switch off his shields to end up in a brawl with a squishy human on the Citadel).

Actually, as the story goes, it was his control of Saren, and then that thing being killed that sent a shock through his system, shutting him down.  He didn't shut down until the Saren Zombie was killed.

That's pushing it somewhat though - remote controlling one small zombie thing can end in such disaster? Serious design flaw there, it's like the Pentagon blowing up if someone shoots down a drone in Afghanistan.

[Tron Mega]

RustyLH wrote...

I personally think that if they had made the refusal ending scalable, such that if you have a very high readiness rating, you can win outright, that would have simply added a good outcome to what we have.  i think you actually nailed what leaves a sour taste in everybody's mouth.  His death is all but certain, though if you remember, he does appear to live in th destruction ending.  Now, the only thing that sucks for him is if his LI is on the Normandy since it isn't likely coming back to Earth anytime soon.  because as I said, the Destruction sequence really does appear to destroy anything that is not organic...anything mechanical.  All of the Allied ships also disappear along with the Reapers.  The Normandy is beat up very very badly unlike in the others where it appears to be largely intact.  So in other words, if Miranda is his LI, he can go reconnect with her, but Liara, Ashley and Tali, are on the Normandy, correct?  Miranda is the only LI that is not on the Normandy at the end.

Anyway, like I am saying, I don't think the endings themselves are "bad" and in fact, I think they have a lot of great qualities.  It's the fact, as you said, that no matter what you do, Shepard is a goner.

But, then as I said, that's not entirely true, because as I continue to think about this, only in two choices does he die, or more correctly, his physical being dies, but his conscious goes on to control the Reapers.  Wait, one controls, and one just adds to the catalst to create synthesis.  So he does in one, his conscious goes on in another and he practically becomes a God, and in another he lives but his choice causes the extinction of several galactic races, and the fourth, he ends the Reaper threat, but appears to knock the galaxy back into the stone age.

OK, that said, I see nothing wrong with the endings, though is would have been nice for him to have a way of using the crucible to simply defeat just the Reapers.  Maybeit could have sent out a singla that did not take down their sields but made them turn on each other and as this happened, the Allied Fleets could also add thier firepower.

I think this ending would have simply rounded out the choices, and left a sweet taste in everybody's mouth.  Not saying that particular CV scenario, but just "a scenario" where they simply win the battle.  And truthfully, who cares about ripping off Independence Day anyway?  Sure it is similar in that the shields get taken down, bu there would have been plenty of differences, and, let's be honest...if taking down shields is the issue, ID4 ripped off previous SciFi movies and TV shows.  Even Star Trek had a show where they remotely dropped other ship's shields.

OK, so in this one, don't make it a virus that gets sent out.  make it a point weapon that drains their power so that  the shields are no longer effective.  It works fast, and eliminates the shields very quickl of the enemy fleet, leaving them defenseless...or more correctly, much easier to destroy, much like Sovereign.

There...no more ripping off of ID4. 

for someone hwo says the ending isnt bad, you sure have alot of things youd like changed with the ending!

in your opinion, what IS good about the ending? (do you really think other developers are going to steal biowares ending to ME3 or try to do something similar???)

Modifié par Tron Mega, 05 octobre 2013 - 12:45 .

[RustyLH]

Reorte wrote...

RustyLH wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

(let's ignore Sovereign having to switch off his shields to end up in a brawl with a squishy human on the Citadel).

Actually, as the story goes, it was his control of Saren, and then that thing being killed that sent a shock through his system, shutting him down.  He didn't shut down until the Saren Zombie was killed.

That's pushing it somewhat though - remote controlling one small zombie thing can end in such disaster? Serious design flaw there, it's like the Pentagon blowing up if someone shoots down a drone in Afghanistan.

I think they want us to believe that in a way, Soveraign had to bypass some of his safety protocals to control Saren as he did, and when Sare died, it somehow caused a malfunction in Sovereign.

You regain control and Sovereign has restored Saren's shields but not
his health. Just keep moving, using powers, and shooting until the Saren husk finally falls dead. When it does, it turns to dust and you are rewarded with the final cutscene.


The second the Saren husk dies, Sovereign’s shields drop and the massive
ship releases its grip from the station. Joker radios to the fleet that
the shields are down and they now have a chance. Hackett orders all
ships to open fire with everything they have.

The fleet opens fire and Joker swings the Normandy into a hard turn.
The ship fires one missile that goes straight through Sovereign. The
missile damage causes secondary explosions that tear Sovereign apart and
it explodes.

Modifié par RustyLH, 05 octobre 2013 - 12:45 .

[Tron Mega]

i think people are confusing what the reapers represent, rather then what the reapers actually are.

the reapers ARE NOT infaliable, perfect, genius, unltarobots!!! as a matter of fact, i think they are rather sophmoric, and filled with alot of hot air, with really good shielding. thats about it.

iv never understood why people are scared of the reaper. honestly, they are a bunch of moron robots the catalyst even says so.

[Excella Gionne]

The reapers are made from the image of their creators. They have more knowledge, and are advanced in every way. They have the combine knowledge of all previous cycles they've harvested. Of course the galaxy would be scared. Everything the galaxy is using was created by the reapers, if the reapers did cut off the galaxy from using the Relays, the galaxy would be isolated, and much easier to harvest...

[Dr. Megaverse]

Tron Mega wrote...

i think people are confusing what the reapers represent, rather then what the reapers actually are.

the reapers ARE NOT infaliable, perfect, genius, unltarobots!!! as a matter of fact, i think they are rather sophmoric, and filled with alot of hot air, with really good shielding. thats about it.

iv never understood why people are scared of the reaper. honestly, they are a bunch of moron robots the catalyst even says so.

They're Shivans who bluster

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
But I don't think Bio forgot anything. I don't think they ever wanted the war to be resolved by anything other than Shepard doing Something Heroic.

Besides which a hard-fought victory is not incompatible with heroism.  And would likely have been better received.  Both because it would be seen less as a Deus ex Machina and it would be better perceived as Shepard being in charge of his own destiny ( as long as death in battle wasn't a predetermined outcome)

That's all kind of beside the point. My fault; I led you in the wrong direction with "something heroic."

What does Shepard actually do in a "hard-fought victory"? How does it play? Why are Shepard's actions the ones that win the war?

[AlanC9]

But both ME2 and DA:O end with the PC performing personal combat to plant the bomb/ kill the Archdemon. And while ME3 doesn't have that sort of final fight, it does finally turn on Shepard's individual action, not on other people fighting and dying at his command.

[AlanC9]

Sure. ME2 and DA:O presented an illusion of command fairly well. ( Wholly illusionary in DA:O, and only marginal substance in ME2.)

But in the end, it was always going to come down to Shepard shooting someone or pushing a button. Or both. Or shoot/button/shoot, like ME1.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
But I don't think Bio forgot anything. I don't think they ever wanted the war to be resolved by anything other than Shepard doing Something Heroic.

Besides which a hard-fought victory is not incompatible with heroism.  And would likely have been better received.  Both because it would be seen less as a Deus ex Machina and it would be better perceived as Shepard being in charge of his own destiny ( as long as death in battle wasn't a predetermined outcome)

That's all kind of beside the point. My fault; I led you in the wrong direction with "something heroic."

What does Shepard actually do in a "hard-fought victory"? How does it play? Why are Shepard's actions the ones that win the war?

Lead.  Direct.  Be a Commander.  One who leads from the front.  Lead a number of people (say, the old and new squadmates, Grissom Academy students, quarian/get/both troops, krogan or salarians squads, salarians, and asari) to fight their way to and retake. the Council Chambers and open the ward arms.  Combine the Suicide Mission, the Battle of the Citadel, and the Battle of Denerim, and maybe a few details that are uniquely ME3.

Add some strategy to this shooter/rpg.

Edit:  And then don't turn the Crucible into a "Reaper off button" but a "battlefield leveling device"

Modifié par iakus, 06 octobre 2013 - 04:19 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote..

Add some strategy to this shooter/rpg.

The illusion, maybe. No way there'd be enough zots to do anything real. 

Edit:  And then don't turn the Crucible into a "Reaper off button" but a "battlefield leveling device"

What's the difference? Or rather, what problem is this supposed to solve? Besides making ME3 more like Indeoendence Day, that is.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 octobre 2013 - 05:09 .

[Reorte]

AlanC9 wrote...

But both ME2 and DA:O end with the PC performing personal combat to plant the bomb/ kill the Archdemon. And while ME3 doesn't have that sort of final fight, it does finally turn on Shepard's individual action, not on other people fighting and dying at his command.

It finally turning on Shepard and nothing else is part of the problem. Aside from the frankly insulting pseudoreligious
tone of it I just can't suspend disbelief enough to accept that something so big could turn entirely on the actions of a single person, that any big enemy could possibly have such a complete single point of failure that could be exploited like that.

[RustyLH]

Tron Mega wrote...


for someone hwo says the ending isnt bad, you sure have alot of things youd like changed with the ending!

in your opinion, what IS good about the ending? (do you really think other developers are going to steal biowares ending to ME3 or try to do something similar???)

I love the implication that Shepard lives at the end of the Destruction sequence.  But with this being the closest to a CV ending, I don't like that many others died.  No Edi, no Geth, and the galactic civiliation is cut off from each other...maybe for a very very very long time.  So Wrex is cut off from his world, Shepard is cut off from his LI, Tali will never see her homeworld again, etc...

I liked the control ending for the "Legend" aspect and his conscious now telling us what is now going on.

I liked the Synthesis ending for the fact that the Geth and the Quarians can now live in harmony on Rannoch.  I like that EDI now gets to be alive and live with Joker.  I like the idea that the galaztic civilization now has the collective knowledge of all the previous cycles at their fingertips via the Reapers.

I like the way they did the Liara time capsule warning to the next cycle.  In fact, that makes a perfect segway into a new battle against Reapers, if they want to do that.  Doubt they will though.


I do not think anyone is going to make a new ME1/2/3 but developers do re-use themes an frameworks for future games.  They don't just toss out everything they know and start fresh.  That would be dumb not to hold ont what works, and modify/reject what doesn't.  So I am writing a new thread where statewhat i loved and what i think should be altered for future games.



Now, that said, there is no saying that this franchise won't be re-released, due to the movie coming down the pipes in 4 or 5 years.  That will create a lot of new interest in a game, but they won't want to buy the original.  They will want a state of the art game.  If that happens, suggestions for fixes here "could" make it into a new rewrite, and in fact, if that were to happen, I would think the Devs would appreciate the feedback and ideas.  Some they would use, and some they would reject.