419 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

But the reapers are pretty much overpowered. There is no conventional solution for them since they are all too powerful individually, and far too numerous.

I disagree. They could have explored alternative technology, further emphasized the Thanix Canon and developed new variations, especially if you kept the Collector Base intact, thus giving some relevancy to ME2. Even if we dabble into the unconventional territory, having the Crucible weaken the Reapers or Harbinger to level the playing field would have been far superior to what we got.

For this to work, Mass Effect 2 would have to be revised so that the choice to save or destroy the Collector Base would be eliminated, otherwise, you'd have to create two totally different states for the next game, which forces a specific outcome based on the impact of this choice no matter what you do after that, which I don't think is really workable. But basically, I'm speaking strictly within the confines of ME3. With the previous games staying exactly as they are, there's not much wiggle room for viable solutions against the reapers.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 09 octobre 2013 - 02:13 .

[Iakus]

Five Seven Five wrote...

Continuing the thread about the possibility of a conventional victory - it was always possible, until at the beginning of ME3 Hackett et al begin telling Shepard "victory isn't possible. It was clear in ME1 from the Vigil conversation that the key to the Reaper victory is surprise and shutting down the relays, allowing them to destroy isolated planets one at a time. While the Protheans may have been more advanced than the galaxy at the time of ME3, the unified forces Shepard is able to assemble are pretty clearly an unprecedented thing for the reapers to face. I don't understand why Bioware thought the crucible was necessary or a good story element.

Indeed.

As to why, probably because Shepard spent virtually all of ME2 shooting mercs rather than work on a way to stop the Reapers.  

[David7204]

You can't have a conventional victory just by the galaxy developing a bunch of technology.

It's no better than the Crucible.

And introducing a solution before ME 3 is very mediocre writing.

Modifié par David7204, 09 octobre 2013 - 02:15 .

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

You can't have a conventional victory just by the galaxy developing a bunch of technology.

It's no better than the Crucible.

And introducing a solution before ME 3 is very mediocre writing.

Lord of the Rungs must have sucked then.

Oh, wait...

[David7204]

Lord of the Rings is not Mass Effect.

[KaiserShep]

David7204 wrote...

You can't have a conventional victory just by the galaxy developing a bunch of technology.

It's no better than the Crucible.

And introducing a solution before ME 3 is very mediocre writing.

Didn't the alternative you propose also change parts of Mass Effect 2? 

[David7204]

Yeah. What of it?

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

Lord of the Rings is not Mass Effect.

Duh it's better 

[AlanC9]

David7204 wrote...
And introducing a solution before ME 3 is very mediocre writing.

Why is that mediocre writing?

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

Lord of the Rings is not Mass Effect.

It's not mediocre writing either.  And it introduced the "solution" about halfway through the first volume.

[David7204]

AlanC9 wrote...

David7204 wrote...
And introducing a solution before ME 3 is very mediocre writing.

Why is that mediocre writing?

Because it absolutely eviserates the greatest conflict of the series. It destroys a huge sense of mystery and trepidation. No longer is the audience wondering "How the hell are we going to this?." Now all they have to wonder is "How is this technology/artifact/whatever going to defeat the Reapers (because we all know it will.)

It's a betrayal of the incredibly extensive foreshadowing meticulously built up to destroy that conflict.

And that's the absolute best case scenario. That assumes the solution goes wrong somehow, as it properly should. If things are as simple as building a weapon and boom, the Reapers die, things are far, far, far worse.

[spirosz]

The sense of mystery got destroyed when "I know you feel this" happened.

[David7204]

Lord of the Rings was never great because of Frodo's journey to destroy the ring. It was great because of the fantasy world established.

If Mass Effect decided to introduce a solution to defeat the Reapers early on, perhaps this would be acceptable. But it didn't. It did the exact opposite. It established the Reapers are an incredibly daunting challenge.

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

Because it absolutely eviserates the greatest conflict of the series. It destroys a huge sense of mystery and trepidation. No longer is the audience wondering "How the hell are we going to this?." Now all they have to wonder is "How is this technology/artifact/whatever going to defeat the Reapers (because we all know it will.)

It's a betrayal of the incredibly extensive foreshadowing meticulously built up to destroy that conflict.

And that's the absolute best case scenario. That assumes the solution goes wrong somehow, as it properly should. If things are as simple as building a weapon and boom, the Reapers die, things are far, far, far worse.

Knowing the solution and being able to enact it are two different things.

THere can be just as much trepedation in "How are we going to get this done?" as "What are we going to do?"

[David7204]

No. It's still just a technology or an artifact. Whatever challenge is presents is going to be petty in comparison it replaced.

[dreamgazer]

spirosz wrote...

The sense of mystery got destroyed when "I know you feel this" happened.

I had to fight the urge to breakdance after hearing that the first time.

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

No. It's still just a technology or an artifact. Whatever challenge is presents is going to be petty in comparison it replaced.

And teh created will always rebel against the creators.

Be careful with absolutes.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

But we found a way to stop that from happening.
By destroying organic life?
No, by making bacon.

[Mangalores]

Obadiah wrote...

Mangalores wrote...
...
E.g. if the Citadel is the only mass relay connecting to where they are between the cycles and they literally can't get from their location to the Milky Way by conventional means or it forces them to sacrifice enormous reserves in energy and resources to bypass this problem.
...

I thought that was implied, and is one more element in this cycle which makes it so much more different than the ones that came before it.

Just throwing this out there: this would also be one of the reasons Refuse in this cycle is able to weaken the Reapers to the point that the next cycle can defeat them without compromise.

Do you see any weakness in the Reapers of ME3? If they had to sacfrice something for their invasion we sure as hell don't see it. The galaxy loses faster than the Protheans who got jumped via the Citadel and supposedly fought on for centuries. The galaxy of the Citadel Council is nearly finished by the end of the game which is at best a couple of months into the invasion.

There might have been some throwaway line but we don't see any effects of something like this being the case.

Given how awkward the entire mechanism is that we see in ME1 one could have hung up an essential weakness to explain why they do it in this overly complicated way.

Supposedly the Reapers even waited several centuries beyond the normal cycle start hoping for Sovereign to figure out a way to "fix" it and they only did a conventional invasion when their Collector plot failed, yet, we have no in game indication that they are somehow in a worse off position than usual.

[InvincibleHero]

iakus wrote...
And teh created will always rebel against the creators.

Be careful with absolutes.

The geth did rebel. Just because they reached some accord with organics after 300 years when their very existence is threatened does not invalidate it. They can go back to warring and exterminating organics right after that threat is ending if they so choose regardless of any promises they might have given. We believe in self-determination sounds cool but geth survival > all is what geth have shown time and again. If they feel threatened they will end that threat period.

Prove it was wrong with actual proof in the games. 

[RiouHotaru]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Refusal does imply that the next Cycle won by some other means, whether it was Conventional Victory or their own Superweapon. Liara does specifically state that they tried to use the Crucible but it didn't work, so there's no reason to think that the next cycle would attempt that which had failed the previous cycles.

While you all die if you choose Refusal, in a way you do pave the way for the next cycle to not only win, but win the right way.

This leap in logic is ridiculous.  She said they tried to use the Crucible and it didn't work, then details that her archive contains all the information.

It's like if a friend moves away and leaves a computer behind with a record message saying:  "I made this computer and tried to use it, but it didn't work.  Here's everything I did to try to make it work."

Are you just going to toss the computer out because clearly your friend trying to use it and failing means it's a piece of junk?

I severely doubt that.  Besides, we already have Word of God the next cycle used the Crucible anyway, or that the Refusal epilogue is supposed to heavily imply this was the case.  "They sacrificed so we did not have to."

[RiouHotaru]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

This is why I had hoped the Crucible would be a device that would somehow "level the playing field"  Something that would disable the Reapers' nastier weapons and give the galaxy a fighting chance without ensuring victory.

That would have been awfully contrived, wouldn't it? 

No more contrived than what we already got (secret Prothean superweapon blueprints hidden in an archive humanity has spent the last three decades combing through?  Really?)

And it would have been far more satisfying to me and to others.  Uniting the galaxy would have meant something.  And Shepard wouldn't have to betray his/her values, and possibly allies to prove the Reapers' own point.

Just because you've been combing the archives for 3 decades doesn't mean ANYTHING.  We're given no idea how much data the Archives contain, or how important the data was.  For all we know the Crucible was a subdirectory with a misleading title that caused researchers to push it down on the priority list.  If you read the comics, Liara gets a hint from ANOTHER Archive to go looking for a specific bit of data in the Mars Archive.

That's how she knew where to look.  Otherwise, it's like looking through a stack of needles for one really specific needle you want.  It's nigh impossible without some help.

Also, uniting the galaxy DID mean something.  The fact you united them to complete the crucible, organize a fleet to attack the Reapers, and were even successful enough to get the Crucible in place to put it to use HAS to count for something.  Not to mention the ridiculous feats Shepard pulls off to bring the races into a coalition.

I won't comment on the "betraying values" remark because that's subjective and only applies to the Shepard's of specific individuals.  It certainly didn't betray my Shepard's values anyway.

[Ice Cold J]

Ice Cold J wrote...

I STILL don't believe that the Reapers couldn't be defeated "conventionally."

Every race and fleet in the galaxy? C'mon.


The problem with this feeling -- it's not an argument -- is that there are as many Reapers, and as far advanced beyond organics, as Bio wants there to be. If Bio wants the Reapers to defeat the galaxy, that's how strong they are.


Never said it was...


If that was possible they'd have been wiped out long before this cycle. Something else was needed. Just not what we got.

They'd never not had the element of surprise before this cycle. They'd never been delayed like this. They've (likely)never faced a UNITED galaxy before this. This cycle was supposedly different for many reasons.


It took the whole Alliance fleet to take down one capital ship. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of capital ships. The Protheans were far superior to us and still failed.

As someone else said it took AN Alliance fleet and the Citadel fleet to take out SovereignAND the Geth fleet that came with him.
If EVERY race brought EVERY fleet and even the "clanless" (mercs, outlaws, criminals, Terminus inhabitants) rose up to fight? You can't just discount that as nothing, no matter how strong the Reapers may be.
Someone who LOVES this series and has a lot of time on their hands counted almost 300 Reaper ships in that final scene from ME2. Sovereign said "we are legion." "Legion" = Latin for 3000-6000. Where in that number does their actual numbers lie? Are they all capital ships? Until the numbers are added all up, I don't think it's necessarily as lopsided as so many assume.

Lastly, when cows start fighting back, then I'll accept your analogy.

[Iakus]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Just because you've been combing the archives for 3 decades doesn't mean ANYTHING.  We're given no idea how much data the Archives contain, or how important the data was.  For all we know the Crucible was a subdirectory with a misleading title that caused researchers to push it down on the priority list.  If you read the comics, Liara gets a hint from ANOTHER Archive to go looking for a specific bit of data in the Mars Archive.

That's how she knew where to look.  Otherwise, it's like looking through a stack of needles for one really specific needle you want.  It's nigh impossible without some help.

Mass Effect 1 cxalled the Mars Archive a "small data cache"

Also, uniting the galaxy DID mean something.  The fact you united them to complete the crucible, organize a fleet to attack the Reapers, and were even successful enough to get the Crucible in place to put it to use HAS to count for something.  Not to mention the ridiculous feats Shepard pulls off to bring the races into a coalition.

And in the end, you still feels like the Catalyst lets you "win".

I won't comment on the "betraying values" remark because that's subjective and only applies to the Shepard's of specific individuals.  It certainly didn't betray my Shepard's values anyway.

Lucky you, I guess

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

Mass Effect 1 cxalled the Mars Archive a "small data cache"

And to hit on another point, once humanity did join the galaxy, I would expect any and every major Prothean expert to be on that cache in a heartbeat. Shadowbroker or no, Liara finding the data when she did just came off as lame.