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[Jorji Costava]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

And to hit on another point, once humanity did join the galaxy, I would expect any and every major Prothean expert to be on that cache in a heartbeat. Shadowbroker or no, Liara finding the data when she did just came off as lame.

Maybe they just could have found it on Ilos instead. With the Batarians out of the picture so quickly in ME3, it probably wouldn't have been as big of an issue to go through the Mu Relay anyways.

[Elite Trooper]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

iakus wrote...

Mass Effect 1 cxalled the Mars Archive a "small data cache"

And to hit on another point, once humanity did join the galaxy, I would expect any and every major Prothean expert to be on that cache in a heartbeat. Shadowbroker or no, Liara finding the data when she did just came off as lame.

Agreed. It ticks me off because they just wave the issue away with "Oh we found it with desperation and a little bit of luck", it's pathetic. It cheapened the game for me becuase this magical weapon that we've never heard anything about pops up with the ability to destroy Reapers.

[Tron Mega]

osbornep wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

And to hit on another point, once humanity did join the galaxy, I would expect any and every major Prothean expert to be on that cache in a heartbeat. Shadowbroker or no, Liara finding the data when she did just came off as lame.

Maybe they just could have found it on Ilos instead. With the Batarians out of the picture so quickly in ME3, it probably wouldn't have been as big of an issue to go through the Mu Relay anyways.

they could have used one of the already established routes to finding that information. the derelict reaper, sovereign, the collector base, hell even that crazy volus who claims to have seem ghost people(like starchild) are all usable elements that should have been used.

i mean how pathetic was it that bioware dropped the I WIN button on us within 30 minutes of the reapers ariving? (not to mention the I WIN button is entirely unexplainable.)

how inept does a writer have to be to be employed by bioware?

[AlanC9]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

And to hit on another point, once humanity did join the galaxy, I would expect any and every major Prothean expert to be on that cache in a heartbeat. Shadowbroker or no, Liara finding the data when she did just came off as lame.

To some extent, isn't that an illusion caused by the player's POV? The additional data cache had been discovered some time before the Reapers invade. It's Shepard who finds out just in time.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

AlanC9 wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

And to hit on another point, once humanity did join the galaxy, I would expect any and every major Prothean expert to be on that cache in a heartbeat. Shadowbroker or no, Liara finding the data when she did just came off as lame.

To some extent, isn't that an illusion caused by the player's POV? The additional data cache had been discovered some time before the Reapers invade. It's Shepard who finds out just in time.

I actually think I would have bought into it a lot more if we found it in the interim between 2 and 3. But as others pointed out above, getting the Mars mission within 30 minutes of the Reaper invasion and finding our (expected) super weapon didn't do the plot contrivance any favors.

In short: the Crucible could have been made to look believable, but the necessary steps weren't taken (imo).

[AlexMBrennan]

The additional data cache had been discovered some time before the Reapers invade

So, what, Liara was just sitting on blueprints for a superweapon hoping that some friendly Alliance frigate happened to come by to pick her up?

Sorry, but Liara couldn't have found about the Crucible more than, say, a day before the attack because otherwise she'd have been able to notify Hacket and then the hearing would have gone a bit differently.
And no, you can't explain it with Cerberus meddling either (e.g. jamming communications) because Hacket had sent Liara to Mars, and would have known that something was up if the outpost stopped responding.

[AlanC9]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

I actually think I would have bought into it a lot more if we found it in the interim between 2 and 3. But as others pointed out above, getting the Mars mission within 30 minutes of the Reaper invasion and finding our (expected) super weapon didn't do the plot contrivance any favors.

That's exactly what I meant by an illusion; sn illusion of contrivance, if you like.Hackett and Liara already knew the plans were there, and had known for some time. The plans aren't miraculously discovered at that moment, that's just when Shepard happens to learn of them.

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 octobre 2013 - 12:01 .

[AlanC9]

AlexMBrennan wrote..
So, what, Liara was just sitting on blueprints for a superweapon hoping that some friendly Alliance frigate happened to come by to pick her up?

Huh? She was sitting in an Alliance reasearch facility, doing reasearch. What's the problem?

Sorry, but Liara couldn't have found about the Crucible more than, say, a day before the attack because otherwise she'd have been able to notify Hacket and then the hearing would have gone a bit differently. 

And no, you can't explain it with Cerberus meddling either (e.g. jamming communications) because Hacket had sent Liara to Mars, and would have known that something was up if the outpost stopped responding.

I don't follow this. What "hearing," and why would it have gone differently?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

AlanC9 wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

I actually think I would have bought into it a lot more if we found it in the interim between 2 and 3. But as others pointed out above, getting the Mars mission within 30 minutes of the Reaper invasion and finding our (expected) super weapon didn't do the plot contrivance any favors.

That's exactly what I meant by an illusion; sn illusion of contrivance, if you like.Hackett and Liara already knew the plans were there, and had known for some time. The plans aren't miraculously discovered at that moment, that's just when Shepard happens to learn of them.

So they decided to do nothing with this information until the Reaper invasion hit us over the head? 

Edit: Like Elite Trooper pointed out, the desperation and a bit of luck line is pretty much the entire indicator of how weak and non-sensical the solution to the Reaper problem actually is.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 20 octobre 2013 - 01:06 .

[AlanC9]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

So they decided to do nothing with this information until the Reaper invasion hit us over the head?  

They weren't doing nothing. They were working at decrypting the data. Sure, it wasn't an all-out effort yet.That's whollyconsistent  with both the MEU and RL.

[Dr. Megaverse]

Tron Mega wrote...

osbornep wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

And to hit on another point, once humanity did join the galaxy, I would expect any and every major Prothean expert to be on that cache in a heartbeat. Shadowbroker or no, Liara finding the data when she did just came off as lame.

Maybe they just could have found it on Ilos instead. With the Batarians out of the picture so quickly in ME3, it probably wouldn't have been as big of an issue to go through the Mu Relay anyways.

they could have used one of the already established routes to finding that information. the derelict reaper, sovereign, the collector base, hell even that crazy volus who claims to have seem ghost people(like starchild) are all usable elements that should have been used.

i mean how pathetic was it that bioware dropped the I WIN button on us within 30 minutes of the reapers ariving? (not to mention the I WIN button is entirely unexplainable.)

how inept does a writer have to be to be employed by bioware?

Ask Mac Walters....or Jacktard Hudson....<_<

[KaiserShep]

The level of hostility some harbor towards the writing team of Mass Effect 3 is kind of disturbing.

[Br3admax]

KaiserShep wrote...

The level of hostility some harbor towards the writing team of Mass Effect 3 is kind of disturbing.

It is.

[Dr. Megaverse]

KaiserShep wrote...

The level of hostility some harbor towards the writing team of Mass Effect 3 is kind of disturbing.

*sigh* Sarcasm truly is a lost art...

Modifié par Dr. Megaverse, 20 octobre 2013 - 04:26 .

[KaiserShep]

When it comes to people's opinions of the writers of the game on this forum, distinguishing serious comments from sarcastic ones is no small feat.

[Dr. Megaverse]

KaiserShep wrote...

When it comes to people's opinions of the writers of the game on this forum, distinguishing serious comments from sarcastic ones is no small feat.

Thats the FUN!

[BaladasDemnevanni]

AlanC9 wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

So they decided to do nothing with this information until the Reaper invasion hit us over the head?  

They weren't doing nothing. They were working at decrypting the data. Sure, it wasn't an all-out effort yet.That's whollyconsistent  with both the MEU and RL.

Which conveniently works out within thirty minutes of a Reaper invasion.

Again, it's not the first contrivance we've ever seen. But the fact that this is a three game epic and we've been wondering how we're going to defeat these guys since the very beginning amplifies the stupidity of locating our magic solution just as **** hits the fan. I think it would have been more believable if either we found an entirely different cache in an entirely different location, or instead obtain that data from the Collector Base, like that datapad Joker hands Shepard at the end of ME2.

As it stands, this just makes the Alliance/Council look their typical stupidity, which I've grown bored of.

[AlexMBrennan]

Huh? She was sitting in an Alliance reasearch facility, doing reasearch. What's the problem?

When Shepard arrives, Liara immediately tells Shepard that she has found for a doomsday weapon capable of destroying the Reapers. Given that she was there to look for some sort of doomsday weapon capable of destroying the Reapers, I would have expected her to share these findings with Hacket immediately. However, it seems that Liara was just waiting for Shepard to pick her up before sharing her findings with anyone.

I don't follow this. What "hearing," and why would it have gone differently?

Start of ME3? The "we fight or we die" bit?

The point is that if Liara had found out about the superweapon any sooner then she'd have been able to share her findings, and the Alliance officials talking to Shepard would not have been headlessly panicky.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 20 octobre 2013 - 12:31 .

[Xilizhra]

When Shepard arrives, Liara immediately tells Shepard that she has found for a doomsday weapon capable of destroying the Reapers. Given that she was there to look for some sort of doomsday weapon capable of destroying the Reapers, I would have expected her to share these findings with Hacket immediately. However, it seems that Liara was just waiting for Shepard to pick her up before sharing her findings with anyone.

Um, she did share her findings with Hackett. That's why Hackett sends Shepard to Mars in the first place.

[AlexMBrennan]

Um, she did share her findings with Hackett. That's why Hackett sends Shepard to Mars in the first place.

If Liara had found the blueprints easier and shared his findings with Hacket then he'd have sent someone earlier without waiting for Shepard to be regain command of the Normandy due to a full scale Reaper invasion emergency.

And if, as you suggest, Hacket knew about the Reaper doomsday weapon then why didn't the Alliance defence committee mention it?
At that point, Hacket might have known that Liara was looking for something on Mars but he couldn't have known that she had found a doomsday weapon capable of destroying the Reapers.

The events of the game are simply not consistent with anything other than Liara finding a prothean doomsday weapon within hours of the Reaper invasion.

[Note that the technologically much more advanced protheans did not manage to build the Crucible in the centuries they held out against the Reapers whilst the relatively primitive Alliance managed to build it in a matter of weeks based on incomplete blueprints... totally not contrived]

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 20 octobre 2013 - 01:23 .

[Elite Trooper]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

[Note that the technologically much more advanced protheans did not manage to build the Crucible in the centuries they held out against the Reapers whilst the relatively primitive Alliance managed to build it in a matter of weeks based on incomplete blueprints... totally not contrived]

Following on from that, the only explanation we're given as to how they understand the plans is that they are "oddly simple". So they managed to find these doomsday plans with desperation and luck, and manage to construct these millions of years old plans because they are oddly simple. How convienient.

Another point is that the crucible plans have existed for millions of years and have been worked on by many species, but the Reapers never once discovered this? 

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

[Note that the technologically much more advanced protheans did not manage to build the Crucible in the centuries they held out against the Reapers whilst the relatively primitive Alliance managed to build it in a matter of weeks based on incomplete blueprints... totally not contrived]

The technologically more advanced Protheans also didn't have the logistics network of the Realy network, and a galaxy-scale comparable effort.

It's not like they were fighting hard or supporting eachother during that time. The Protheans didn't hold out for centuries in some heroic resistance, the Reapers were mopping up refugees and remnants.

[Linkenski]

It would've been a nice touch to the ending choices if it was in there to begin with. The only reason I'm still butthurt about the endings is because I can't forget the orignal ones. The damage has been done, but I understood the "message" with the release of the EC which was "Sorry, we care about your feedback/opinions, but this is the best we've got!"

My bias aside it's indeed touching and while I wish there would've been a succesful refusal option I would've also liked the ability to join Saren in ME1, stayed with Cerberus at the end of ME2 and so on. This would've been the story I would've wanted to tell and not Bioware, so in the end I accept what we've got, and that Bioware's vision for the frachise is the one that goes in the end.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Bioware didn't meet my expectations with ME3 but that's because I'd got so deep into the fanbase before it even came out and I also expected it to be more like ME2 to the point where I started looking for all the flaws ME3 had instead of appreciating what it got.

Casey himself said that the EC was being put out there "for those who would appreciate it" and we should all remember that neither the endings nor the EC were made with the intent of ruining anything or insulting the most hardcore fans.

It just so happened that Bioware misread people's expectations or liked an idea that was just too ambitious for their talent.

[Dean_the_Young]

Elite Trooper wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

[Note that the technologically much more advanced protheans did not manage to build the Crucible in the centuries they held out against the Reapers whilst the relatively primitive Alliance managed to build it in a matter of weeks based on incomplete blueprints... totally not contrived]

Following on from that, the only explanation we're given as to how they understand the plans is that they are "oddly simple". So they managed to find these doomsday plans with desperation and luck, and manage to construct these millions of years old plans because they are oddly simple. How convienient.

And it wasn't convenient that there just so happened to be a readily available cypher in ME1?

It's not like deliberatly designing for simplicity in a legacy project you intend to hand down is a bad idea. Making instructions for the lowest common denominator is pretty common in reality.

Another point is that the crucible plans have existed for millions of years and have been worked on by many species, but the Reapers never once discovered this? 

Er, we know for a fact that they did. The Protheans, and the Catalyst's own admission.

Discovering that the crucible was worked on doesn't mean you successfully can destroy all copies of the plans. The Reapers failed to cover up things more significant than that (records and such of their existence), and we've known their mop-up crews weren't perfect since ME1.

[AlexMBrennan]

And it wasn't convenient that there just so happened to be a readily available cypher in ME1?

Except that Saren's plot depended on it - if there hadn't been a cipher then his plan wouldn't have worked and there would have been no threat, and thus no story.

It's not like deliberatly designing for simplicity in a legacy project you intend to hand down is a bad idea. Making instructions for the lowest common denominator is pretty common in reality.

Well, that sorta seems inconsistent with the protheans storing that data on beacons virtually inaccessible to anyone lacking telepathy.