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[AlanC9]

AlexMBrennan wrote...
If Liara had found the blueprints easier and shared his findings with Hacket then he'd have sent someone earlier without waiting for Shepard to be regain command of the Normandy due to a full scale Reaper invasion emergency.

Until the Reaper invasion Mars was thought to be a fairly safe place, wasn't it? In retrospect this was a mistake, sure.

At that point, Hacket might have known that Liara was looking for something on Mars but he couldn't have known that she had found a doomsday weapon capable of destroying the Reapers.

His message to Shepard is garbled, but it sounds to me like he's saying that he knows it's a weapon. I agree that the board didn't know; I don't think Hackett's reported to them yet, since he doesn't have the complete decryption ( of course, he never does get that). Before presenting the plans it'd be nice to know what the thing did, especially since the board doesn't take the Reaper threat seriously in the first place. Before the invasion he's be laughed out of the room with what he has.

Note that the technologically much more advanced protheans did not manage to build the Crucible in the centuries they held out against the Reapers whilst the relatively primitive Alliance managed to build it in a matter of weeks based on incomplete blueprints... totally not contrived]

Many months, actually., per NPC convos. Not really a problem with your argument, but you should know better. By ME standards this is medium-contrived, yep. 

[KaiserShep]

The Protheans, even if they were more advanced technologically, were at a significant disadvantage in that the reapers cut off the head of their empire right out the gate. The current cycle did not have that problem, and had more room to maneuver. The protheans enjoyed no such luxury.

[Br3admax]

The protheans actually did build the Crucible. But once the sabotage happened they had no way to recover with their government gone and they blowing up their own planets.

[Excella Gionne]

I think that was because the Reapers didn't come right through the Citadel Relay since the Citadel Relay can't work properly without a manual override. The Reapers learned almost everything about the Protheans from the Citadel, besides the Ilos Project.

[AlexMBrennan]

Until the Reaper invasion Mars was thought to be a fairly safe place, wasn't it? In retrospect this was a mistake, sure.

Mars does not have the facilities to build the Crucible, and there is no reason to wait no matter how Mars is.

[KaiserShep]

Without a real sense of the scale of time, there's no telling how much time anyone had to do anything.

[KaiserShep]

Well, it does make the Illusive Man's comments about the Alliance sitting on the data for 30 years hold some weight. That's one thing about the beginning of the game that I do like.

[Dr. Megaverse]

I've noticed that the "contrivances" in ME3 are more glaringly obvious when doing a trilogy playthrough.  Having ME1 and ME2 fresh in my mind when I started ME3 gave me the "Whiskey tango foxtrot?!?!" syndrome, you know the one where you put down the controller and scratch your head about the logic kinda thing.

Things such as:

The speed of the Crucible production

Wrex's 360 turns on the Genophage (ME1: I want that cure (Convince otherwise) ok lets go destroy it. ME2: I'm forging a new Krogan race from the ashes of the genophage by uniting them, rendering the Genophage irrelevant (Yes I'm aware I'm borrowing O'keers words here but what Wrex was doing is essentially the same to me).  ME3: I need a genophage cure or you can kindly f*ck right off!)

The plot hole large enough for a Mako to drive through due to Leviathan's implications for Reaper control/destruction

The inconsistently large emphasis placed on "saving Earth" when the whole galaxy is burning (feels downright ethnocentric at points)

The Citadel's seeming unimportance to the Reapers (and the whole damned Relay network for that matter) until the last 2 hours of the game.  Seriously, didn't we have an entire epic end game battle with Nazara so he couldn't shut down the whole Relay system, thus cripling the Council species, and open the port to Dark Space?

The obvious disconnect between "the fate of organics allowed to have synthetics" and the Rannoch arc's peaceful resolution (and indeed symbiosis (notice I didn't say synthesis) between synthetics/organics)

The sudden expansion of the Alliance fleet's ship roster, with no supporting evidence on how they managed to outnumber the Turian fleets in a matter of months

The unexplained nature of where Cerberus is basing itself through the Omega 4 Relay with the destruction of the Collector Base (granted I've not played Omega or read any of the comics/novels so there might be a good explanation there)

Cerberus' seemingly callous and casual attitue shift towards humanity (Perhaps this is a personal opinion but "Improving" to me does not mean "Controlling" which you'll notice has huge emphasis placed on it throughout the story.  Sanctuary's Huskification process, Huskification of Troopers, "Indoctrination" of new recruits via Reaper tech to ensure loyalty)

Etc, etc, etc.

ME3 has some very good personal moments which tug the heart strings, but it also has a lot of "WTF?!?" moments for someone who plays as avidly as I do. 

[EDIT] Spelling, sentence structure.

Modifié par Dr. Megaverse, 20 octobre 2013 - 06:59 .

[Elite Trooper]

Dr. Megaverse wrote...

snip

I'm in the process of finishing a trilogy playthrough as well (Just finished the Rannoch mission) and I have to agree. There's a huge dip in quality on many fronts in ME3,  the fact that there's an option to play the game where all decisions and conversations are made for you, and that combat seems to be the only aspect improved, makes it seem as if their priority was to bring in a different crowd of players rather than appease the established crowd.

Anyways, like you mentioned, the fact that the Reapers leave the Citadel untouched until the end of the game still confuses me. Virgil in ME1 states that the reapers hit the citadel first in their cycle (albeit they were able to use the Citadel relay) to take out the leadership and gather intel on bases/colonies etc. I was convinced the Crucible plans were a ploy by the Reapers to make the races waste time, resources and troops, so by the time it was realized that it was a red herring their forces would be severely weakened.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

And it wasn't convenient that there just so happened to be a readily available cypher in ME1?

Except that Saren's plot depended on it - if there hadn't been a cipher then his plan wouldn't have worked and there would have been no threat, and thus no story.

You do realize you're not arguing against it being convenient or contrived, right? The Cypher is a MacGuffin- you could remove it and all of Feros from the plot entirely and still have it run exactly the same.

It's not like deliberatly designing for simplicity in a legacy project you intend to hand down is a bad idea. Making instructions for the lowest common denominator is pretty common in reality.

Well, that sorta seems inconsistent with the protheans storing that data on beacons virtually inaccessible to anyone lacking telepathy.

Well, you know, except for data discs and VI computer systems and other, non-telapathic means of data storage that don't require telapathy.

And, you know, legacy project. IE, the Protheans aren't the origin of the design concept.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Until the Reaper invasion Mars was thought to be a fairly safe place, wasn't it? In retrospect this was a mistake, sure.

Mars does not have the facilities to build the Crucible, and there is no reason to wait no matter how Mars is.

Uh, sure there is- the plans not being understood to a point of being able to know what to build. You're basically demanding they put the cart before the horse in expecting them to build the cart before they're quite sure what they're looking at.


Which, if that's your problem, man ME1 and ME2's contrivances and authority figure failings should leave engineering 101 concepts like this in the dust.

[Malanek]

Wrex's 360 turns on the Genophage (ME1: I want that cure (Convince otherwise) ok lets go destroy it. ME2: I'm forging a new Krogan race from the ashes of the genophage by uniting them, rendering the Genophage irrelevant (Yes I'm aware I'm borrowing O'keers words here but what Wrex was doing is essentially the same to me).  ME3: I need a genophage cure or you can kindly f*ck right off!)

He always wanted to cure the genophage, its just in ME3 he actually had an opportunity to do it. In ME1 you could convince him that Sarens version of the cure was not really a cure, but rather slavery.

In ME2 I don't ever really recall him doing anything else but what he could to advance the Krogan. I don't recall if you ever told him specifics about Mordins missions. If you did and he wasn't interested in the cure then I guess that would have been a plot hole.

He always had the motive just not the opportunity.

[force_echo]

grey_wind wrote...

All the dialogue centered around the Refusal ending is great, especially the speech Shepard gives Star-Jar. While its outcome is nonsensical, it really does make you wish that the writers could have come up with a more imaginative plot than "build this deus ex machina we just found at the last minute in our hour of need whose functions nobody understands!".

Are you talking about the Crucible? If so, then you're an idiot. "Last minute"? The Crucible was the main objective of the entire f*cking game, since literally the mission on Mars.

[eyezonlyii]

force_echo wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

All the dialogue centered around the Refusal ending is great, especially the speech Shepard gives Star-Jar. While its outcome is nonsensical, it really does make you wish that the writers could have come up with a more imaginative plot than "build this deus ex machina we just found at the last minute in our hour of need whose functions nobody understands!".

Are you talking about the Crucible? If so, then you're an idiot. "Last minute"? The Crucible was the main objective of the entire f*cking game, since literally the mission on Mars.

I think the biggest problem with the Crucible is the fact that you don't do anything with it. It's not a tangible thing. Maybe if instead of gathering allies, you gathered actual resources and got to see the thing as it was being built.

[Dr. Megaverse]

Malanek999 wrote...

Wrex's 360 turns on the Genophage (ME1: I want that cure (Convince otherwise) ok lets go destroy it. ME2: I'm forging a new Krogan race from the ashes of the genophage by uniting them, rendering the Genophage irrelevant (Yes I'm aware I'm borrowing O'keers words here but what Wrex was doing is essentially the same to me).  ME3: I need a genophage cure or you can kindly f*ck right off!)

He always wanted to cure the genophage, its just in ME3 he actually had an opportunity to do it. In ME1 you could convince him that Sarens version of the cure was not really a cure, but rather slavery.

In ME2 I don't ever really recall him doing anything else but what he could to advance the Krogan. I don't recall if you ever told him specifics about Mordins missions. If you did and he wasn't interested in the cure then I guess that would have been a plot hole.

He always had the motive just not the opportunity.

Well I can see the logic behind this, but the issue I have is not his motivations, but his displayed behavior.  He seems to understand in ME1 that the cure is not only wrong because of Saren's hook in it, but also becaue a return to the "innumerable Horde" is not the future for the Krogan.  This is reinforced by his behavior, and stated intention in ME2.  I suppose if you read deep enough into his actions you could logically make the above argument.  It's the seeming disconnect between his stated intention in ME2 and his actions in ME3 which are jarring for me. 

[EDIT] I'm drunk as hell and phrased things wrong

Modifié par Dr. Megaverse, 21 octobre 2013 - 03:22 .

[Artifex_Imperius]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The additional data cache had been discovered some time before the Reapers invade

So, what, Liara was just sitting on blueprints for a superweapon hoping that some friendly Alliance frigate happened to come by to pick her up?

Sorry, but Liara couldn't have found about the Crucible more than, say, a day before the attack because otherwise she'd have been able to notify Hacket and then the hearing would have gone a bit differently.
And no, you can't explain it with Cerberus meddling either (e.g. jamming communications) because Hacket had sent Liara to Mars, and would have known that something was up if the outpost stopped responding.

you guys really need to read the comics alot would be explained their not everything is on the game. here some spoilers liara's research on the reapers lead her back to thessia and khaje. by then she already contacted hackett. she asked hackett to gain access to mars archieves.

here some link to help you:

http://masseffect.wi...t:_Homeworlds_4

Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 21 octobre 2013 - 06:09 .

[Maurader Sackboy]

Seems like this thread has gotten way off topic thus my resonse here probably won't matter but ... I ran thru the ending again with the refuse option; yes Liara's recording was touching.  But, I let the credits play and the short stargazers scene afterwards was very interesting:  no longer an old man walking/talking with a boy but a woman and a boy.  And she says something like -- we are all at peace now, thanks to The Shepard.  So it seems as if the refuse ending had an excellent outcome for the future of the galaxy (?)

[KaiserShep]

Dr. Megaverse wrote...
]Wrex's 360 turns on the Genophage (ME1: I want that cure (Convince otherwise) ok lets go destroy it. ME2: I'm forging a new Krogan race from the ashes of the genophage by uniting them, rendering the Genophage irrelevant (Yes I'm aware I'm borrowing O'keers words here but what Wrex was doing is essentially the same to me).  ME3: I need a genophage cure or you can kindly f*ck right off!)

Wrex never changes his stance on the genophage; he makes do with what he has. Before ME1's story, Wrex was making the most of the genophage by trying to rally the clans together and focus more on breeding rather than fighting, since they can't replenish their numbers anymore, but all the while he did want the genophage cured. You could very well gun him down over the issue, and does require some convincing to go along with you. In ME2, he essentially is doing similar to what he was doing pre-ME1, only he has more clout this time. But at the time, the krogan are in relative safety. Remember, the only reason the krogan can manage through the genophage is because they're not at war with anyone. In ME3, the war with the reapers makes this irrelevant. With the genophage ensuring that such a small percentage of the population capable of breeding, there's little chance that the krogan would have a viable population by its end.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 21 octobre 2013 - 04:43 .

[Dr. Megaverse]

KaiserShep wrote...

Dr. Megaverse wrote...

snip

snip

I can see how the impetus of war can change someones methods.  A fair argument.  I still find the shift in his actions jarring personally. 

Modifié par Dr. Megaverse, 22 octobre 2013 - 01:27 .