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[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

So you wanted happyend and didn't get it = bad railroading.
I wanted some kind of heroic sacrifice and got it = good railroading.

Sure, absolutely nothing subjective here.

Given that a lot of people wanted that.  It should have been in the cards, yeah.

Or at least, not "pick a color and die.  Or murder your own allies and maybe live"

Individual survival versus the lives of allies seems more than a legitimate role-playing choice to be presented to the player. That you don't like being presented it doesn't make it bad railroading.

And certainly not "Accede to the Reapers' own philosophy no matter what you pick"

Except... you don't. Besides that the Catalyst explicitly notes that destroy does NOT solve his problem and outright breaks his holding pattern, the Catalyst's motivations are not yours unless you choose them to be.

The Catalyst may want Synthesis for his reasons, but your reasons for it can be as simple as 'don't want to kill/enslave anyone else.'

How many people have to be p*ssed off before it stops being subjective?

If they're pissed off for subjective reasons, it wouldn't matter how many.

[Dean_the_Young]

iakus wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

Forcing one (three, later four) path or rather skipping your preferred path?

Choices which didn't matter or rather choices which didn't bring you your preferred outcome?

Not a preferred path, any path I would feel worth taking.  Every path Bioware laid out as legitimate felt to be an absolute betrayal.  Genocide, slavery, genetic violation?  Yeah that's not hyperbole to my mind.  Those are the so-called "options" which I am apaprantly a bad, bad person for not liking and calling Boiware on it.

Then they offer an option that actually sounds like one worth taking.  Only it turns out Bioware was just trolling.  And I'm an even worse person for calling Bioware on that too.

But look at the choices!  Wow!  So many options I have no idea where to start!

That was sarcasm 

Indeed. Here's another taste:

You are being such a reasonable person.


Yes, you are being hyperbolic. And nursing a victim complex. You are not being trolled when a path that Bioware spent the greater part of the entire game telling would not work ends up... not working.

When every reasonable, and  unreasonable, authority figure in the game agrees on the point that the Crucible is necessary for victory, when the principle of conventional victory is discredited on multiple occassions (including the very first level) by having the greatest defenses and power bases of the galaxy fall to the reapers with 'slowing them down' being the ultimate result of the great alliance you forged, when the entire narrative end game begins the Reapers making massive advances across the galaxy and ending with an entire do-or-die gamble to reach the superweapon gambit you have spent the entire game gathering allies and resources to execute...

If you are in any way surprised at the themes and buildup of the game playing out exactly as they had told you they would, you have no basis to claim you were given anything less than what you deserved.


No one is calling you a bad, bad person because you don't like the ending choices, iakus. No one is calling you a bad, bad person at all. The fact that you're claiming your non-existent persecution for not liking the endings, however, is losing you points... but that is completely your own doing.

[Dean_the_Young]

StreetMagic wrote...

Only thing that I don't like is how it surrenders it's power. I understand why it does (something to do with the Crucible's design, I guess?), but it makes the choices (even Destroy) less defiant. That's why Refuse probably appeals to some people -- it's still defiant, something done on Shepard's terms.

Pretty much. More than a few people in the ending angst were convinced

I'm not sure what the details of the dark energy ending were, but it seems like it had this element of defiance in the Destroy option. There would come a point apparently where you had to choose sacrificing humanity to bring galactic stability, or turn the device against the Reapers, going against the design somehow, and gambling on the chance that you solve the dark energy crisis on your own. This is both a Refuse and Destroy option at the same time.

Refuse wasn't even that developed as described. It basically amounted to 'the Reapers were right all along' about the impending destruction of the universe, and not even the Reaper capitulation option was 'stability'- rather, that was the 'last ditch saving throw', while the rest offered even less hope.

It kind of sucked as presented.

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you don't want the collateral damage, then choose Control or Synthesis. Both of those stop the Reapers, and without necessarily inducing collateral damage.

Because I'm not willing to surrender the galaxy to the Reapers, even one with Shepard's memories?  

And violating the genetics of every living being in the galaxy seems to be even worse?

Modifié par iakus, 02 octobre 2013 - 03:08 .

[Steelcan]

this is not complicated.

-kill geth on Rannoch
-Destroy reapers
-get Joker a real girlfriend

profit

[Iakus]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Individual survival versus the lives of allies seems more than a legitimate role-playing choice to be presented to the player. That you don't like being presented it doesn't make it bad railroading.[/quote]

No.  After an entire trilogy with hundreds heck probably over a thousand different choices made, no ending should be that binary.

[quote]
Except... you don't. Besides that the Catalyst explicitly notes that destroy does NOT solve his problem and outright breaks his holding pattern, the Catalyst's motivations are not yours unless you choose them to be.[/quote]

The Catalyst's entire existence is built around the concept that organics and synthetics cannot coexist peacefully.

To get rid of the Reapers, Shepard, an organic, must...kill all synthetics.

It fits perfectly.

So yeah, you do.

[quote]
The Catalyst may want Synthesis for his reasons, but your reasons for it can be as simple as 'don't want to kill/enslave anyone else.'[/quote]

Stand amidst the ashes of a trillion dead synthetics and ask if rationilizations matter.  Their silence is your answer  
[quote]
How many people have to be p*ssed off before it stops being subjective?[/quote]If they're pissed off for subjective reasons, it wouldn't matter how many.
[/quote]

That was rhetorical.  If a lot of people are all angry about the same thing, maybe there's something to it.  Subjective or not.

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes, you are being hyperbolic. And nursing a victim complex. You are not being trolled when a path that Bioware spent the greater part of the entire game telling would not work ends up... not working.

WHen they dangle that hope in front of you after a major uproar over the endings, only to be told SO BE IT!  yeah I feel totally justified in being trolled for daring to disagree that the endings are awesome.

When every reasonable, and  unreasonable, authority figure in the game agrees on the point that the Crucible is necessary for victory, when the principle of conventional victory is discredited on multiple occassions (including the very first level) by having the greatest defenses and power bases of the galaxy fall to the reapers with 'slowing them down' being the ultimate result of the great alliance you forged, when the entire narrative end game begins the Reapers making massive advances across the galaxy and ending with an entire do-or-die gamble to reach the superweapon gambit you have spent the entire game gathering allies and resources to execute...

If you are in any way surprised at the themes and buildup of the game playing out exactly as they had told you they would, you have no basis to claim you were given anything less than what you deserved.

And  yet this same game showed us that every single race was fighing its own war, looking to their own borders and not cooperating at all.  No wonder they were getting curb-stomped, it almost didn't matter they still had the relay network going..  

Think of what they could do if they pooled thier resources and worked together!

They could...fail together. 

No one is calling you a bad, bad person because you don't like the ending choices, iakus. No one is calling you a bad, bad person at all. The fact that you're claiming your non-existent persecution for not liking the endings, however, is losing you points... but that is completely your own doing.

Are we even reading the same forums?

I (and others) have been called entitled, stupid,"crybabies" and worse.  I've had my opinions belittled on a fairly consistent basis.  Yes I try to let it roll off.  But it builds up over time and I just gotta vent.

[Eckswhyzed]

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you don't want the collateral damage, then choose Control or Synthesis. Both of those stop the Reapers, and without necessarily inducing collateral damage.

Because I'm not willing to surrender the galaxy to the Reapers, even one with Shepard's memories?  

And violating the genetics of every living being in the galaxy seems to be even worse?

Oh, these hoary old chestneuts again? Does no-one pay attention to the tone of the Extended Cut?

[Iakus]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you don't want the collateral damage, then choose Control or Synthesis. Both of those stop the Reapers, and without necessarily inducing collateral damage.

Because I'm not willing to surrender the galaxy to the Reapers, even one with Shepard's memories?  

And violating the genetics of every living being in the galaxy seems to be even worse?

Oh, these hoary old chestneuts again? Does no-one pay attention to the tone of the Extended Cut?

Does the Extended Cut not leave the Reapers running the galaxy?

Does the Extended Cut not force Synthesis on every living being down to the trees and grass?

[Eckswhyzed]

iakus wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you don't want the collateral damage, then choose Control or Synthesis. Both of those stop the Reapers, and without necessarily inducing collateral damage.

Because I'm not willing to surrender the galaxy to the Reapers, even one with Shepard's memories?  

And violating the genetics of every living being in the galaxy seems to be even worse?

Oh, these hoary old chestneuts again? Does no-one pay attention to the tone of the Extended Cut?

Does the Extended Cut not leave the Reapers running the galaxy?

Does the Extended Cut not force Synthesis on every living being down to the trees and grass?

1. No, I didn't see the Reapers governing anything.

2. Yep, with apparently very positive conequences. Yay!

[Steelcan]

StreetMagic wrote...

What? Even the trees and grass are synthesized? lol

I suppose eating a nice roast beef dinner is out of the question? :

Only if you have issues with cannabalism:blink:

[Excella Gionne]

The Crucible does some sort of reprogramming with the Catalyst A.I. The Reapers main purpose is to preserve life at all costs, but that leaves them with such a broad question on "how" to do that. They betrayed the Leviathans and created a reaper out of their creators' image, and every other out of Harbinger's. The Reapers are still looking for their answer, but they have yet to reach a conclusion, therefore, these harvesting cycles were made upon the invention of the Mass Relays. The Crucible's design changes and is added upon within each cycle while being kept hidden and passed on through cycles. Each cycle eventually studied the Citadel, I believe. Once the Crucible was built and docked, it gave the Catalyst options to suggest new solutions. But it cannot act, because it does not know which of the proposed solutions would be best, and because the design of the Crucible is exclusive to the Reapers, therefore, it cannot act upon these solutions. That is why it asks Shepard to decide, because only an organic can make these choices. If Shepard refuses to use the Crucible, it does not give the any new solution to the catalyst, thus, the cycle continues, and the Reapers continue to search for a solution that may be impossible to reach.

[Erez Kristal]

AlanC9 wrote...

erezike wrote...

its all in my quote.
The choice of using destroy or control are no choices at all. they are only there to create an illusion of choice for you to pick synthesis which is the only option the reapers truly want.

Or you can refuse and become independet from the reapers ploy.

The only  problem with this argument, of course, is that it has nothing to do with what actually happens in ME3.

And in Refuse you live to lose another day. Shepard's cycle gets exterminated. He might as well have died on Eden Prime.

you are just making an assumption. where in the game-story do you see shepard losing? after choosing refuse
refuse end is openened. it depends on your performance when fighting the reapers.

In control, synthesis you are clrearly dying. in destroy you sucidaly approach an explosive device before shooting it.
refuse is the only ending where you choose to fight and its consquences are unknown.

[Erez Kristal]

Han Shot First wrote...

If the Crucible was some sort of Reaper trap, why would it come with the option to destroy the Reapers? And choosing Refuse is choosing to roll over and die. You're allowing the Reapers to slaughter everyone. It is the equivalent of waving a white flag.

You are making an assumption here that it came with an option to destroy all of the reapers.
since shepard is dead. and all we get is blurry visions.
We cant really tell what happeneed after you shot the explosive device. 

I agree it would make no sense for it to have an option to destroy to have the reapers let you inside the citadel and that specific room so easily.

either they wanted to be destroyed, or it was all a lie.
shepard cliff hanger(which started many It theories) leaves even more open questions.

[Xplode441]

Steelcan wrote...
this is not complicated.

-kill geth on Rannoch
-Destroy reapers
-get Joker a real girlfriend

profit

No no no, that's all wrong.
It's:
-Kill the Quarians on Rannoch
-Choose Destroy to finish off the Geth
-Get Joker some tissues and tell him I killed his girlfriend

[Erez Kristal]

DarthSideus2 wrote...

Although I agree with Bioware giving fans the choice to be a d*** by making this particular non-decision and dooming the entirety of the advanced races, how could anybody make this choice, other than curiosity. The whole of the entire Trilogy is built around Shepard finding a way to stop this impending mass extinction, you're even brought back from the dead. To reach the point that you have spent three games to get to, be given several choices where everybody lives (they may not be the best choice, but at least we get to live), or do NOTHING and watch everyone die. NO. A thousand times, NO!

I did not get resurrected from the dead, help find a cure for the Genophage, end the Geth War, unite the galaxy and build the Crucible, "to let the Outer Rim burn for the sake of the Jedi teachings" (KOTOR II reference). This last choice betrays everything that Shephard has fought for, and everybody dies because of it. As Marvin the Martian would say "THIS MAKES ME ANGRY, VERY ANGRY!"

Congratulations. you have just doomed the galaxy when you completed the reaeprs test.
Dont feel bad. almost all of us failed humanity with this ending. which is why the outrage is strong in bioware fans.
And the sad part is, we failed even though we were responsible you see. we didnt have choices but to fall into the reapers elegant trap. not because of the reapers cleverness. but because of the writers character hijacking.

[AlanC9]

erezike wrote...


In control, synthesis you are clrearly dying. in destroy you sucidaly approach an explosive device before shooting it.
refuse is the only ending where you choose to fight and its consquences are unknown.

Hey, if you want to pretend that, go right ahead. Just don't expect us to take you seriously. The meaqning of the scenes is blatantly obvious.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Yes, you are being hyperbolic. And nursing a victim complex. You are not being trolled when a path that Bioware spent the greater part of the entire game telling would not work ends up... not working.

WHen they dangle that hope in front of you after a major uproar over the endings, only to be told SO BE IT!  yeah I feel totally justified in being trolled for daring to disagree that the endings are awesome.

When did Bio ever dangle any hope for a successful Refuse  in front of you? Did you really think that Refuse would do anything except what it did?

And  yet this same game showed us that every single race was fighing its own war, looking to their own borders and not cooperating at all.  No wonder they were getting curb-stomped, it almost didn't matter they still had the relay network going..  

Think of what they could do if they pooled thier resources and worked together!

They could...fail together.

What fail? They built and deployed the Crucible. And won. (Unless Shepard was an idiot, of course.)

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Again you guys are arguing about details. Doesn't this bother you more? The fact that you reached the Citadel then were swept up by God and found out you played over 100 hours fighting against the reapers and now had to pick a solution to a problem you didn't know existed until 5 minutes before the game ended?

[Erez Kristal]

AlanC9 wrote...

erezike wrote...


In control, synthesis you are clrearly dying. in destroy you suicidally approach an explosive device before shooting it.
refuse is the only ending where you choose to fight and its consquences are unknown.

Hey, if you want to pretend that, go right ahead. Just don't expect us to take you seriously. The meaqning of the scenes is blatantly obvious.

Its easy to confuse wishful thinking with blatantly obvious.
Those scene are anything but obvious which is why a complete succesful theory grew out of them.
The ending scene is very open for interpretation beccause that was walter's intention.
If you wish to take the reaper murder god child at his word, its your call.

The only obvious thing about the ending is,  no matter who you interpreate it, its still blatantly bad.

Modifié par erezike, 02 octobre 2013 - 09:15 .

[Kataphrut94]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Again you guys are arguing about details. Doesn't this bother you more? The fact that you reached the Citadel then were swept up by God and found out you played over 100 hours fighting against the reapers and now had to pick a solution to a problem you didn't know existed until 5 minutes before the game ended?

That's not totally fair. You've known there was a synthetics/organics problem from the moment you met Tali. The fact that it's apparently a problem for the Reapers as well is the only new information.

Besides, the problem you're solving at the end is still your own problem, namely the Reapers. Whether you kill 'em, control 'em or bring about a completely nutso peace treaty, either way you're stopping the Reaper threat. If it solves the Catalyst's problem as well, then good for him. So long as the people we care about (ie everyone) aren't harvested, who cares what the Catalyst thinks?

[KaiserShep]

Kataphrut94 wrote...
So long as the people we care about (ie everyone) aren't harvested, who cares what the Catalyst thinks?

Pretty much this.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Again you guys are arguing about details. Doesn't this bother you more? The fact that you reached the Citadel then were swept up by God and found out you played over 100 hours fighting against the reapers and now had to pick a solution to a problem you didn't know existed until 5 minutes before the game ended?

That's not totally fair. You've known there was a synthetics/organics problem from the moment you met Tali. The fact that it's apparently a problem for the Reapers as well is the only new information.

Besides, the problem you're solving at the end is still your own problem, namely the Reapers. Whether you kill 'em, control 'em or bring about a completely nutso peace treaty, either way you're stopping the Reaper threat. If it solves the Catalyst's problem as well, then good for him. So long as the people we care about (ie everyone) aren't harvested, who cares what the Catalyst thinks?

Yes it is new information concerning the Reapers. You collapse on this pad which lifts you into a white light (symbolic of dying and being lifted into heaven). You have a brand new character (God) providing you with the information. 

Child: Wake up.
Shepard: Where am I?
Child: The Citadel. It is my home.
Shepard: Who are you?
Child: I am the Catalyst.
Shepard: I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst.
Child: No. The Citadel is part of me.
Shepard: I need to stop the reapers. Can you tell me how I can do that?
Child: Perhaps. I control the reapers. They are my solution.
Shepard: Solution? Solution to what?
Child: Chaos. The created will always rebel against their creators. But we found a way of stopping that from happening.
Shepard: By destroying organic life?
Child: No. We harvest advanced organic life storing them in reaper form.
Shepard: I think we'd rather keep our own form.
Child: No. You can't.
Shepard: You take away our hope we might as well be machines like you.
Child: You have hope, more than you know. The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever proves it. It also proves my solution won't work anymore.
Shepard: So now what?
Child: We find a new solution. The Crucible ... changed me... created ... new... possibilities. But I can't make them happen.
Shepard: But I can?
Child: Yes. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah


None of that mystical bull**** bothers you? Not to mention the mystical bull**** surrounding each of the endings. And the reapers are so overpowered that they can't be defeated conventionally because ... dun dun dun.... indoctrination, and you never know when they're really dead, so you need some higher power to defeat them.