24 réponses à ce sujet

[Brass_Buckles]

This is probably going to be a fairly lengthy post.  Mind you, I really don't think the developers meant any harm in what they wrote for Single Female Shepard in the Wild Citadel Party.  The female players were unhappy we had so few straight male options.  Many wanted Vega as an option, and I heard plenty of shouts about why wasn't Javik available to Femshep?  I DO think they needed to seriously review how they did what they did because it definitely had some creepy vibes.

I am going to try to be constructive, because who knows?  Maybe a dev/writer will be reading this, and take something away from it.

The problems with Vega and Single Femshep have been discussed to death.  This thread isn't about that.  Well, not entirely about that anyway.

What I don't understand is why no one notices that the same (date rape) can be said of Javik randomly waking up with Shepard.

My original interpretation was what I think the developers wanted us to think:  Shepard and Javik both got really drunk at the wild party and ended up stumbling off and things happened.  Javik might be pleased to have loosened his inhibitions--and he might want further interaction with Shepard--but Shepard isn't (either because she was drunk, or because she'd never want to be with Javik, depending on the player's personal interpretation) and clearly wants this reminder of the wild party to be over.

The problem is that most rapes are "date rapes."  The predator is someone the woman knows.  Check.  The predator usually doesn't use force, but instead gets the victim drunk or high (or waits until she's drunk or high).  Then he makes his move while she can't consent. The situations with both Vega and Javik very much reflect real-world situations, and I wouldn't be surprised if these fictional scenarios have caused real-world gamers some real-world distress, if they've been in those situations.

Javik and Shepard never flirt.  Not during his DLC, not during the Citadel DLC.  He tells her at one point to go away if she's looking for a mate (implying he isn't interested in her that way).  And yet, suddenly, he climbs into bed with her and is gloating about it, while she's clearly hung over and may not even remember what happened.  It doesn't take much to read that as "he took advantage of her while she was drunk/passed out."  And "taking advantage" of someone who is either too drunk or too unconscious to consent, is rape.  The idea that even someone like Shepard can be a victim of rape, and the situation too complicated (they were both drunk, though she was clearly drunker, she's his commander, they are sort-of friends) by the little details to actually prosecute the criminal may be realistic, but it's also downright vicious to the player.

The situation would probably look less like rape if:
• Javik and Shepard exchanged some flirting during the course of the Citadel DLC.  Unlikely, with Javik, but there you have it.  The interest needed to be there.
•  Some kind of cut scene, maybe with an option that would enable you to get out of the situation, should have happened.
• If Shepard didn't seem ashamed of what happened, it would seem less "rape-y."  No seriously.  Why "Never speak of this again?"  If it just happened in the heat of the moment, etc., why should Shepard be ashamed that she had sex once, even if it were with Javik?  Why not, "We won't be doing that again," or some other indication that it was a mutual fling and not creepily one-sided?
• If Shepard had different options on how to react to Javik being there, i.e. pleasantly surprised he stayed or annoyed he didn't leave as soon as he woke, it would have felt more like Shepard had a say in what went on.
• If Single Female Shepard passes the opportunity to get Vega, she should not have been forced to be with Javik instead.  The player probably kept her single for a reason.  But in the case the player did like the idea of being with Javik, the option should be there.  See above mention of flirty dialogue.  The dialogue with Vega was meant to "earn" a fling with him*, so if Javik were an option, his dialogue should also have led up to said fling.

I'm not going to recommend, "Well if it happened to Female Shepard, it should happen to Male Shepard."  I wouldn't want Male Shepard to be raped or to be a rapist.  Whoever wrote these scenes for Female Shepard would surely have seen how problematic a female version of the Vega fling was, even if the Javik issues totally eluded them. I don't even know if an equivalent of Javik waking up next to you could be had for male Shepard, unless it were Wrex or Grunt--but I still wouldn't wish it on the players of Male Shepard!

*Note - the Vega dialogue was still horribly creepy and Shepard definitely commits date rape by plying him with alcohol in order to get him to change from non-consenting to consenting.  It was undoubtedly meant to be funny and flirty and not an exploration of what it is like to be a rapist, but it seriously missed the mark.  But, the dialogue was meant to earn a night with Vega.  It's the "earn a night with Javik" idea that I'm going for, not the "Shepard is a creepy date rapist" vibe.

Modifié par Brass_Buckles, 01 octobre 2013 - 05:59 .

[grey_wind]

You know, considering Javik being Javik, I interpreted the scene as him having sneakily crawled into bed next to Shepard while she slept to deliberately give her the wrong WTF reaction when she woke up.

But I could be at a complete tangent.

[Brass_Buckles]

grey_wind wrote...

You know, considering Javik being Javik, I interpreted the scene as him having sneakily crawled into bed next to Shepard while she slept to deliberately give her the wrong WTF reaction when she woke up.

But I could be at a complete tangent.

This idea's been mentioned to me as well, but considering if you don't wake up with Javik, he's in your bathroom on his hands and knees, it's questionable whether he was recovered enough from his hangover to pull that off.

If that were the intent of the developers, though (and I agree, Javik is a jerk, and I also agree that the devs did not mean to give the impression that Shepard was either a rapist or a rape survivor), then, as I've pointed out above, it really needed to be shown more clearly because of the inferences of date rape that could otherwise be made.  They pulled out all the stops for the Citadel, but they really, really missed the mark with Vega and were about as far off with Javik, only people didn't seem to make as much of a fuss about that.

[Dubozz]

I've waited for "I have more eyes than you have endings" joke.

[David7204]

Eh.

I understand where you're coming from, but ultimately, I think the player has enough room to interpret the 'wake-up' scene as they see fit. Particularly since Shepard and the other character are both fully clothed.

[MysticSpace]

I don't know how you get Javik but doesn't that mean you don't have a reIationship with anyone at that point? I figured that femshep did it for the sake of stress release, that and Javik probably wasn't that great in bed.

[Isaidlunch]

David7204 wrote...

Eh.

I understand where you're coming from, but ultimately, I think the player has enough room to interpret the 'wake-up' scene as they see fit. Particularly since Shepard and the other character are both fully clothed.

Can you honestly think of another explanation, aside from some ridiculous scenario like Shepard feeling bad about prank calling someone after Javik dared her to... while they just happened to be drunk and lying on her bed? Seems a lot easier to just pretend the scene never happened.

[DJBare]

Err, so some of you have not gotten drunk to the point where you've just collapsed into bed regardless whether it's already occupied?
Must be just me.

[AlexMBrennan]

If it just happened in the heat of the moment, etc., why should Shepard be ashamed that she had sex once, even if it were with Javik?

Are you telling me that you have never done anything while drunk that you are ashamed of?

Whilst I personally have never seen the scene in question, it strikes me as odd that you automatically cast Javik as the villain and Shepard as the victim - you said it yourself: "Shepard and Javik both got really drunk" - if neither party can consent, then why is the male the rapist? If neither party can give consent then both parties are equally guilty. Or can men not be victims of sexual assault in your fantasy world ("The predator is someone the woman knows")?

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 01 octobre 2013 - 10:58 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

^Only women are allowed to be victims. Get with the times.

[Eterna]

StreetMagic wrote...

Men feel like victims if the woman was ugly.

Or at least I do.

I feel like a victim if a woman is involved at all. 

[DineBoo]

The Citadel DLC could have corrected a lot of issues with femShep's LI choices, especially for those who play femShep straight. They fixed things for Miri and Jack beautifully, but femShep was still lacking.

Since there was a huge chance femShep could end up with no male LIs, they could have elevated Vega to LI status, and let it play out in the DLC. Javik could have a been a nice DLC fling or something(for the Empire!). While this still wouldn't make up for femshep's lack of choice, at least it's something.

But personally the way James and Javik were treated in the DLC just feels like a massive troll from BW. Just like with Joker, it just feels like they went about addressing what the fans wanted in the worst way. Lots of people wanted to romance James, especially with all that autoflirting, and I would have gone for Javik just for for the empire. And people wanted Joker since ME1.

But instead wanted Joker turns femshep down hard for sexbot. Hooking up with James is all creepy weird and uncomfortable, and you get no agency with Javik,

Why put this into the game, especially with femShep's LI issues? If they realized there would be a chance of femSHep waking up by herself, just have her wake with Grunt and Wrex for giggles if they were available in the game. If not, they were was no problem with femShep waking up by herself before in the main game.

[Brass_Buckles]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

If it just happened in the heat of the moment, etc., why should Shepard be ashamed that she had sex once, even if it were with Javik?

Are you telling me that you have never done anything while drunk that you are ashamed of?

Whilst I personally have never seen the scene in question, it strikes me as odd that you automatically cast Javik as the villain and Shepard as the victim - you said it yourself: "Shepard and Javik both got really drunk" - if neither party can consent, then why is the male the rapist? If neither party can give consent then both parties are equally guilty. Or can men not be victims of sexual assault in your fantasy world ("The predator is someone the woman knows")?

Drinking does reduce your inhibitions, but unless you're on the verge of passing out yourself, you're still capable of telling if someone else is so drunk they're barely standing, or if they are passed out.  So it isn't really an excuse.  There's also a big difference between getting drunk and having sex with someone when you know you're going to have sex before you got drunk, and getting very drunk and being raped by someone who's not as drunk as you are.

If they were both so drunk that they don't know what happened, then there's no victim, but that is not what the brief scene you get implies.  (Mind you, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's no problem--since they would have done something very intimate to which neither would otherwise have consented and that would surely cause things to be awkward between them--only that they were both too drunk to know what they did at the time.)

The implication within the scene is that Shepard was drunk enough that she doesn't seem to know how Javik even got there, whereas Javik appears to remember what happened, which is why he's gloating about it.  If Javik were aware enough to remember what happened, then he would be aware enough not to have sex with an unconscious or barely-alert person who could not consent.  I really shouldn't even have to explain that to any of you.  It would be different if they were both uncertain what happened, or if both of them remembered enjoying it.  It doesn't matter if he was drunk--he was still alert enough to know what was going on.  Shepard, going by the evidence players have, wasn't.

If you read my first post above, you'll also notice that I pointed out that Vega was very much victimized by Single Femshep in the alternative possibility.  Yes, it's possible for a woman to be the perpetrator, but in this case it seems to me there's too little evidence that she was even alert enough to know what went on.  You should also note that most rapes go unreported, and while it's not uncommon for a man to be raped, it's far more common for it to happen to a woman (one in every two to three women is a rape survivor, versus--I said 3 in 10 men but I don't think that's right, the number is lower than that I think).

If the person committing the act does know what is going on, then they aren't so drunk that they didn't know better.  They're using being drunk as an excuse to get away with it.  It is very obvious that someone who is passed out or who can't walk without assistance cannot consent.  This is the most frequent type of rape in the real world--the rapist actively ensures he or she has an excuse, i.e. getting drunk or high--but not so much that they don't know exactly what they are doing--so that they won't be ostracized or arrested.  Most real-world rapes involve getting the target too drunk to consent, or waiting until the target is too drunk to consent.

That is precisely why the Javik scene is so problematic, even though I'm sure it was meant to be funny and not intended to be rape.  But again, the fact that it can be read that way means that the developers didn't pay enough attention to what they were putting out there--the same with Shepard potentially date raping Vega.

If nothing happened, why not make that clear too?  "Cut the crap, Javik, we both know we were too drunk to do anything but sleep," for instance.  It would not have been that hard, and it would have been a lot funnier to hear Shepard make a witty retort than to act ashamed of whatever happened.

If this were a matter of "Hey they just got drunk and had an enjoyable fling," Shepard wouldn't be telling Javik not to talk about it.  With any of her actual LIs, she doesn't seem to be the type to be ashamed of having had sex, or sexuality.  Why is she suddenly ashamed in the Javik scenario?  Even if he's blabbing and bragging all over the ship, Shepard doesn't seem to me the type to be upset about that, as long as it doesn't undermine her command.  She could  just say something along the lines of, "Yeah, that was great, but let's not repeat it--we've got a mission to worry about."  But, she doesn't.  And so, it looks like rape.

DineBoo is right:  A lot of this is an issue of agency.  You didn't choose to be with Javik if you chose to be a single Shepard.  Some players wanted to romance him, but I don't think this is how they wanted it to play out.  And if you'd CHOSEN to be single and celibate, there's really no reason for Bioware to stick anyone in your bed.  It'd be different if you could choose whether or not your Shepard ended up with Javik after the wild party, but you couldn't, and the way it was handled was all-around terrible?  Just because she hosted a wild party does not mean that a single female Shepard somehow "ought to" wake up with someone/get laid/whatever, and since Shepard is at least 50% the player, that makes it worse when the player doesn't have any other option (other than romance someone they may not have wanted to, or date rape Vega).

Again, I think they (Shepard and Javik) were both meant to have been equally drunk, and maybe it wasn't so great for Shepard and yeah, she probably is meant to remember what happened--they were really drunk though, so they can just both forget about it.  I also think Javik's meant to be maybe hoping for future affection from Shepard (which was my original interpretation when I saw that scene) what with the gloating and backhanded compliment.  Or, Javik stumbled into bed, fell asleep, and he's trolling Shepard.  Unfortunately that isn't what the scene looks like if you put thought into it at all, and yes, that is a major problem--one that could have been easily fixed with an extra dialogue option or two to trigger the scenario or leave Shepard to wake alone, and a slightly different reaction from her to waking up next to Javik.

To those of you who think this is not a big deal, yes, yes it is.  Because rapists--men and women alike--get away with it all the time because their friends and loved ones are their targets, and they can cover it over with that not-so-little lie about "I was too drunk to know what was going on.  He/She sent mixed signals and I totally thought he/she wanted it."  When we see something that isn't rape being presented in a way that looks a whole lot like rape, that just reinforces the idea that getting someone so drunk they can't tell you no anymore is okay.  It isn't, even if a lot of people think it is.

The developers need to work harder at coming up with dialogue etc. in the future that doesn't basically lead to the impression that their cast is being raped, or being rapists, unless they specifically want to explore that theme--and to do so they'd probably need a lot more disc space and gameplay hours than the Citadel DLC would have granted them.

Modifié par Brass_Buckles, 03 octobre 2013 - 01:34 .

[Han Shot First]

No offense OP but I think you are blowing things out of proportion a bit.

Because rape is not what happens in that scene at all.

[Brass_Buckles]

Han Shot First wrote...

No offense OP but I think you are blowing things out of proportion a bit.

Because rape is not what happens in that scene at all.

You're evidently (I can't be sure) assuming that I'm angry, and I'm not.  I'm wordy, not angry.  I have a long-standing issue with being unable to edit things down to short statements, because I've discovered that, when it comes to the Internet, the fewer the words you use, the easier it is to misconstrue what you are saying.  That is also why it is important to read carefully--which if you had done, you would know I already said I don't think the Javik scene is intended to be rape, but it's still a big deal that it looks a whole lot like rape.

I refuse to believe that Bioware developers would be so crass as to intentionally make Femshep into a rapist or a rape survivor--however it can very easily be read as rape, and that's the problem.  Re-read my first post, and you'll see that I said I don't at all think that the developers intended it to be rape.  But it looks like it, especially since this, and the Vega scenario, are how rape usually happens--not a stranger, and usually when both the rapist ahnd the survivor are drunk.  If something that is not meant to be rape looks like rape, then adjustments need to be made in the future so that the developers do not make scenarios that look like rape when that's not what they are supposed to be.  And that's pretty much my entire point.  Knowing that's not what they meant isn't the point--the point is that it's pretty awful that it can be read that way at all, and that reflects poorly on Bioware. 

You'll notice that, in more than one post, I actually gave suggestions on how to make the scene look less like rape (mostly it would only take minor dialogue changes), because I do not think the developers wanted it to, or meant for that to be read into it.  Therefore, I think they need these suggestions and feedback because, as I've repeatedly pointed out, it's not that hard to read the situation as rape.  All the good intentions in the world can't always keep you from making mistakes now and then, and the Bioware devs made a mistake somewhere between deciding on their intention for the scene and how they decided they were going to present that.

There's also the issue that single male Shepard, no matter what kind of party he throws, doesn't wake up with anyone in his bed.  Whereas, choose to keep your female Shepard single and you get an uninvited guest and absolutely no option to prevent it.  So regardless of their intentions, even if you can't see how either the Vega or Javik situations could be seen as rape, you have to recognize that there's something wrong with putting an uninvited guest into Femshep's bed who then gloats about how good the sex was.  Neither Shepard nor the player has any say in this, and yes, that's also a problem.  If a single male Shepard woke up next to Javik under similar situations and with the exact same dialogue, you can bet a lot of people would be extremely unhappy about it.

Modifié par Brass_Buckles, 03 octobre 2013 - 02:17 .

[DineBoo]

BW might not have intended the unfortunate implications with Javik and Vega, but I think it does show a severe lack of oversight of the writers.

To bring it back back further, Jacob and femShep. I know he was an unpopular character, but was there really a good reason for him to cheat on femShep and get someone preganat? Why would they pander to that type of stereotype? And Brynn was a neck roll and a finger snap away from being a stereotype herself.

Where was a person to say, "Hmm, this borderline stereotypical and may offend some people." to the writers? Like with Vega, where was someone who could see that if broShep did what femShep did there would be an outcry? Or suggest different wording for Javik and femShep's convo after the party?

Is it because there are few women writers? Writers who are people of color?

I don't understand why they went the routes they did with Vega and Javik in the first place. There was already an outcry about the dearth of femShep choices. They could have used the Citadel DLC to alleviate some of the problems. There was no need for femShep to get all creepy, when even broShep doesn't do that.

But like I said before, it just feel like a big troll from BW to femShep players. "Give them what they want? Sure! But only in the worst way possible. That'll learn 'em."

[Arcian]

This is a non-issue, because you can't expect the in-game Shepard to conform to your personal interpretation of Shepard.

Canonically, regardless of what the hell you believe Shepard believes would or wouldn't do, Shepard got drunk enough to want to bang Javik and did. Unless he is simply trolling her, which is as strong a possibility as the former.

DineBoo wrote...

That'll learn 'em.

That'll TEACH 'em.

[Tom-N7-]

TL;DR

Also, for me it was Javik just trolling Shep.

Modifié par Tom-N7-, 04 octobre 2013 - 07:25 .

[Sir DeLoria]

I'm not sure Javik would intentionally sleep with FemShep. After all, the same Javik said: "Mating between species is a pointless exercise."

[Podge 90]

Just to be clear here, we're talking about Javik raping Shepard off-screen, yes?

[HowlingSiren]

I personally feel, OP, that you are overlooking the context of the scene when interpreting it. All Shepard says it "not a word". Which to me (a woman) screams: "this was a drunken mistake" and "make sure no-one finds out". From all you know about Shepard's personality over 3 games, if Shepard felt she had been raped, do you think she would have let Javik get away with it by just saying: "not a word"? IMHO the airlock would have been the least of his problems. And do you see Shepard in the midst of a war for survival where anything can go wrong at any time get drunk to the point of losing consciousness or awareness? And her crew choosing to take advantage of her at that precise moment? Just: nah.

Female players were lamenting the fact they didn't have as many romance options as male players, so BioWare decided to cater to them by throwing Vega and Javik in the pot. But because Citadel DLC was meant to take place during the campaign, the romance could not be acknowledged in the story outside of the DLC so it took the form of a one-night stand never to be referred to again. That's all I read into it.

[cyrexwingblade]

I concur with the OP. I can see the humor-value of what was set-up, but it wasn't handled well-enough to be more funny than disturbing. Especially my Shepard is pretty straight-laced, but wanted to make sure everyone had fun. Originally I was going to have her do the drunk party for that reason, Then I caught that scene, and made sure my single femshep ONLY does the tame party (still great, which is a plus).

But yeah, the Javik scene is creepy, and definitely has issues about consent. I don't think it was malicious on BW's part, but it definitely needed some better handling to avoid the disturbing factors that lend it to rape-victim telescoping.

Last thing you want your player thinking of during a scene that's supposed to be funny is deeply traumatic past experiences...

[DatRandomGuy1]

Still better waking up with Javik then waking up with Jacob as your love intrest- OH WAIT HE CHEATED ON YOU