234 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Morocco Mole wrote...

@LobselVith8: So, because you respect them - you exonerate them of any evils they might commit?

My friend, you must be forgetting something. The People have had great wrongs done to them. This absolves them of any crimes they themselves may commit for the foreseeable future.

I think that elven characters are capable of wrongdoing, including members of the Dalish. I've addressed time and again how I thought Marethari was wrong to release Audacity (and I'm fairly certain that she was maniptulated by the entrapped spirit), and I never tried to brush aside that the Sabrae clan attempts to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood unless the Champion verbally vilifies Merrill to appease them.

My support for an independent kingdom of the Dales is primarily focused on the fact that humans are oppressed and subjugated across across the continent in the human kingdoms, and dehumanized by Andrastian society to the point where they are seen as less than people. Vaughan lead a group of women out of the Alienage in broad daylight, and nobody cared. Kelder was killing elven children, and he was getting away with it because the victims were elven. Even the Dalish clans are hunted by the templars, or deal with hostilities from Andrastian humans (as the members of the Sabrae clan were threatened because they were heathens, and even Velanna was acting in retaliation against humans who tried to burn her clan by torching the forest).

Given the horrors that the elven populace has had to endure for nearly a millennia, I think the elves finally deserve land where they can be safe. You're welcome to disagree, of course, but I'm not inclined to change my opinion on the matter.

[Former_Fiend]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...



And as i said slavers decision she supported was easy way out and i rly doubt that she cares about what being warden is so only one of few her suggestions can be associated with sorry not my problem than kill them all it will be funny.

Well if we go about murderers we have all our companions including pc and most characters in da as bad.Leliana was bad person in her past but she throwed that (until da 2) when she have psycho she is 1 of 3 companions that encourages to help others and not being pr****.  And even zevran can be convinced to end in gray area like chaotic neutral and throw his path well he is amoral still but he is more you don't hurt me i don't hurt you in da 2. as well isabela who can be convinced into more heroic person if she is rival.
Morrigan is only one party mebmber who is "kill them all" for no reason so she end as most dark companion.

You say "easy way out", I say "pragmatic".

Morrigan can go through a fair amount of character development herself if you befriend or romance her and she seems to have significantly improved her disposition come Witch Hunt. 

And I still find that a person's actions are more important than their attitude. Morrigan suggests morally reprehensible things. The other companions have actually done morally reprehensible things. No amount of "She suggests this" is going to convince me that she's a darker companion than the guy who slaughtered a family, women and children, or the guy who spat in the face of the woman who loved him before coldly executing her as she begged for mercy. 

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: You have not always been as even minded as your last post implies.

You have condoned a great deal of violence in the name of safety.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Former_Fiend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...



And as i said slavers decision she supported was easy way out and i rly doubt that she cares about what being warden is so only one of few her suggestions can be associated with sorry not my problem than kill them all it will be funny.

Well if we go about murderers we have all our companions including pc and most characters in da as bad.Leliana was bad person in her past but she throwed that (until da 2) when she have psycho she is 1 of 3 companions that encourages to help others and not being pr****.  And even zevran can be convinced to end in gray area like chaotic neutral and throw his path well he is amoral still but he is more you don't hurt me i don't hurt you in da 2. as well isabela who can be convinced into more heroic person if she is rival.
Morrigan is only one party mebmber who is "kill them all" for no reason so she end as most dark companion.

You say "easy way out", I say "pragmatic".

Morrigan can go through a fair amount of character development herself if you befriend or romance her and she seems to have significantly improved her disposition come Witch Hunt. 

And I still find that a person's actions are more important than their attitude. Morrigan suggests morally reprehensible things. The other companions have actually done morally reprehensible things. No amount of "She suggests this" is going to convince me that she's a darker companion than the guy who slaughtered a family, women and children, or the guy who spat in the face of the woman who loved him before coldly executing her as she begged for mercy. 

Well she didn't done that as i said because she wasn't in position to do that because warden was one who makes decisions.Even if sten slained family and his attitude makes him dark morrigan is queen of darknes in party her attitude makes clear she not only doesn't care about others and their feelings but is perfectly fine with hurting others for no reason and pleasure when characters have some positive and redeeming traits that makes them less dark.

Her development is that she starts respect (care?) the warden nothing more nothing less her attitude towards other is that same as before.Zevran despite that amoral in first da still he is quiet when it comes about decisions and don't care heh he even sometimes will protest if you want do something bad like killing mages or elves morrigan will enjoy if you send others to hell for nothing. 

And as i said zev before warden was bad guy after he is more cn (unless we are di*** for him).

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Just because you find the Quickening and human/elven couplings producing human children to be racist concepts doesn't make the Dalish clans, or their desire to prevent the extinction of their race, racist.

That's not what I find racist. I find the idea that some advocate that elves shouldn't pair with humans repugnant because it's an absolute invasion into personal liberty, but I don't think it's racist.

My Surana Warden romanced Morrigan, while my apostate Champion romanced Merrill. I certainly have no issue with the idea of humans and elves being together romantically, but that doesn't change the reality that the children of elves and humans are human, as per WoG.

In Exile wrote...

I don't think the elves wanting to isolate themselves is racist, because lots of countries might want to pursue that as an agenda. I think the Dalish refusing to allow humans to subjugate their culture is actually comendable. And I think there's something very noble in sacrificing to protect your identity, and a quintessential part of the human condition (speaking IRL now). 

What is racist is the belief that elves are inherently superior beings, who lost part of their superiority because humans committed the grave sin of existing next to them, and who want to create a state where humans aren't allowed to exist next to them, so that they can then breed elf-to-elf for generations to create a race of all-mage immortals. The last person that had this particular fantasy is ... well... let's say the word "ubermensch" was used in that context.

You're putting a lot of your own spin into the context there. The People believe they were once immortal, and that all elves wielded magic. The primary issue is, we're addressing a setting that has spirits, magic, the Beyond, and other fantastical elements. Trying to say that it's racist for the People to believe in lore that could be true rings a bit hollow to me, since it's not disproven that the Quickening took place during the days of the ancient kingdom of Arlathan.

Until Kirby's post (which has put the matter into debate as a sign of a possible recton to the narrative), we even had characters addressing the longevity of the Dalish and Gaider saying that the Dalish seem to live longer the more generations that they live away from humans.

In Exile wrote...

And it's not as if the elves haven't had insanely racist views because of this belief, either. Just look at what the Dalish elves say about what the elves of Arlathan thought (from Arlathan: Part One):

The humans first arrived from Par Vollen to the north. Called shemlen, or "quicklings," by the ancients, the humans were pitiful creatures whose lives blinked by in an instant. When they first met the elves, the humans were brash and warlike, quick to anger and quicker to fight, with no patience for the unhurried pace of elven diplomacy.

Notice how the entry doesn't even bother to describe humans as "people". They're "creatures" - base things. The tone is clearly half-scorn and half-pitty.

The entry is describing how the Arlathan elves viewed humans. We know enough to realize that, after centuries of enslavement by Tevinter and the sacking of the Dales by the Chantry and it's forces, that many of the People have their own reasons to view humanity negatively (which still didn't stop one of their clans from raising the historical Aveline, a human who was abandoned as a baby).

In Exile wrote...

... those elves who spent time bartering and negotiating with humans found themselves aging, tainted by the humans'  ... Our ancestors came to look upon the humans as parasites, which I understand is similar to the way the humans see our people in the cities....

The old elves were "tainted" by the humans, which were "parasites". That view is openly admited to be "similar" to how humans view the CEs today.

You've spent countless posts talking about the incredible racism of "Andrastian humans" towards the elves. Well, the Dalish openly attribute the same views to their ancestors. This. Is. Racist. This is why this view about immortality is morally repugnant.  

You think the Quickening is racist, but neither you nor I know whether the events described about the Quickening are rue or not. I don't see how it's racist for the People to believe in a historical event that may have happened, or to address how their ancestors came to see humans when they started to suffer from disease and old age because of contact with humans.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your opinion on the People aside, the Dalish refused to abdicate their religion and their culture. I respect their refusal to surrender that last inch of themselves, when the Chantry took so much from them. It's why I find them to be such an interesting concept, despite the hatred some posters have about the People.

I think it's quite respectable that the Dalish won't refuse their culture, even if their culture is abhorent in parts. I'd personally cheer them on if it wasn't for that one bit of absolute racism. It leads to horrible, horrible beliefs, and when you combine it with power it leads to genocide. It doesn't even take a lot of power, as you helpfuly indicate by advocating ethnic purges. 

I advocate the relocation of the human populace out of an independent Dales to prevent casualities because of humans who attack "heathens", mages, and elves. We know about the violence that humans incite against elves when their lot is doing better in the Denerim Alienage, from humans murdering Bann Shianni to humans inciting a riot with an elven Warden who becomes the new Bann. Even the Epilogue slide reveals with an elven Hero of Ferelden who becomes Bann, "the elves became prosperous in a way they had never known... enough to draw elves from nearby lands, desperate for real hope. The influx built ire among the human population and eventually resulted in a riot in Denerim, showing that as much as things change, they always stay the same."

And how do you think the humans will react to elven mages who aren't controlled by templars? Wynne talks about Andrastians killing mages for things they didn't even do, because society is conditioned to vilify mages to an extreme extent. Even Mother Hannah (from the village of Redcliffe) reassures the Amell Warden that a lynch mob won't attempt to kill him.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm sure the practical details of the story will change things; I was hoping that apostate Hawke could turn Kirkwall into a mecca for mages back before Dragon Age II was released, and that certainly didn't turn out to be the case. Overall, I'm hoping for a good story with a an elven mage who properly reflects the cultural attitude and view that a Dalish elf would hold. Perhaps a modern day Illoren? Who knows.[/quote]

Story? I'm hoping we'll meet them . Both elves that cast the Dalish in good light and elves that cast them in bad light. I want to see the best, and the worst, of the Dalish. And ideally, not in direct opposition to one another. [/quote]

Fair enough.  Meeting different types of Dalish characters would be pretty good. I'd also like to get some better insight into their history, their thoughts, and their culture. It seems like some of the clans vary to differing degrees, and some to more extremes.

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not that I'm opposed to the idea of a mage protagonist working with templars, but I'm hoping it's properly addressed (rather than ignored). Especially for a maleficar, since a Dalish mage would technically be using magic that's not sanctioned by the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars.[/quote]

I'm sure it will be. To some extent. Even if it's as little as: "We'll burn that bridge when we cross it" (ie. that you and then agree to put your differences aside for the time being). [/quote]

It may very well come down to that. Speaking of which, I wonder if that's how it might be handled with Cassandra and a Dalish Inquisitor, unless she's no longer associated with the Chantry. I imagine a mage protagonist could voice some opposition to working with a templar, or a member of the Chantry organization, and I'm curious how it'll be addressed if she's a mandatory companion.

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I suppose that's true, but would the templars eventually expect an elven mage to enter the Circle of Magi (under their juristiction) once all is said and done? Would some templars have a problem with a maleficar, and cause a rift among the ranks? The reactivity interests me, since I imagine some pro-templar players might play as a Dalis elf and want to work with the templars, even as a mage.[/quote]

This one is perhaps even more difficult to answer than why they'd work with you, since it depends on how the game ends rather than how it begins.
As it stands right now, yeah... they'd probably expect your dalish elf to enter their new circles. But earn their trust and they might look between the fingers when it comes to you and their allies. They might also end up with too little resources to achieve anything and just leave you alone. Too many possibilities to guess, really. [/quote]

True, there are a lot of unknown variables at this point.

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm assuming the inclusion of racial options, now that the developers have a year to implement them, would be properly addressed. I'm hoping it wouldn't simply be an Andrastian protagonist who is taller, shorter, or has pointy ears; it would be nice for the cultural background and perspective to be implemented, and I think it can be done so new fans can understand, instead of dumbing it down.

It's the cultural perspective that appeals to me; the difference in playing as a character who has a unique look at things that is starkly different than the one held by all Andrastians. How would a Dalish elf feel about Orlais and Tevinter, given the history the elves have had with these two societies? The Dalish don't hold the same view of the Beyond as Andrastians do of the Fade. How will that be reflected during the times the characters need to travel to the Beyond, especially when Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, to the point of avoiding magic that involves spirits as a consequence?

The differences are what interest me as a player. If the Inquisitor is little more than a re-skinned Andrastian with token lines, then I don't see the point. [/quote]

Oh, I agree in principle. Just don't expect a game where your Dalish elf has a radically different story than my Orlesian.

I'm fairly certain you will get unique lines here and there. That you will get exclusive investigate options. That interactions, particularily with other Dalish, are going to be flavoured by your shared identity (them questioning why you lead the Inq. and so on). Some characters will initially react negatively (but not outright hostile) to you.
If we're really lucky, you will be called Brigand/highwayman often. [/quote]

Their reaction could be impacted by what type of group your main character is leading, which is the impression I get from what the developers have talked about with how you can lead the Inquisition, and how your choices will be reflected in how the organization is being developed.

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

You're still going to get investigate options talking about the fade, maybe with a token reference to the beyond. Demons will still be assumed to be evil as the default. You're not going to be locked out of the Spirit school. Chantry, Templars and circle mages are not going to look twice at your race (but might comment how strange it is to meet you).

It will be the same game no matter the race, but with some recognition. Maybe... maybe.... some exclusive content. But not a lot.

Or think of it this way: For every dalish opinion, you also need one andrastian, one circle mage, one tal-vashoth, one surface dwarf and one city elf (add or remove based on what choices are available in the end). This mean practically that there can''t be too many of them. [/quote]

I'd be surprised if the Dalish didn't have their own variant of the Spirit school, since WoT suggests that Dalish avoid forms of magic that involves spirits, while it does read that the magic of the People is heavily involved in nature, with a "heavy emphasis on herbalism and healing".

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm hoping your hunch is wrong, even though I wouldn't put much stock in it being wrong. If it is a primarily human organization, I have to wonder what the soldiers would think about following the commands of a Dalish Inquisitor (or even a Tal Vasoth Inquisitor). I'm hoping it wouldn't be glossed over. [/quote]

I'm sure this one will be addressed though. For all inqusitors. Both in the beginning, and contineously as people question that -you- lead it. [/quote]

I certainly hope it is.

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I've wanted the opportunity to play as a Dalish mage for some time, and it's something I lamented when we first heard about Inquisition, back when we were told the Inquisitor would be 'human only'. The idea of playing as a protagonist who only looks Dalish, and has no real cultural identity with the People or any narrative that reflects his elven status - wouldn't be very interesting to me.

What interests me is the reactivity around a Dalish protagonist travelling to Orlais and Tevinter, how the world reacts to a powerful elven mage of the People. Might the rebel mages see him as an ally, or an enemy? How will the templars following Lambert and Divine Justina V react? How will Andrastians feel about a 'heathen' stopping a threat to all of Thedas? How will the elves, in particular, response to an elven champion who is gaining power and strength across the continent?

A re-skinned Andrastian human simply doesn't interest me. It's why I'd like to have the opportunity to help the elves in the Dales, rather than deal with the political situation in Orlais and ignore the plight of the elves. If the alternative is capitulation to Empress Celene or Grand Duke Gaspard, I wouldn't find it entertaining.[/quote]

I know, my friend. It's just, like In Exile said, temper your expectations. You'll get a little, I'm fairly sure. But the uniquely dalish point of view would have to be tied deeper into the plot. You don't really want a race choice to be dalish, you want a fixed dalish pc. Which is fine, but this game won't deliver what that would.

The dalish situation, the mage-templar war, the Orlesian civil war... those are the sideplots to the great Inquisition and the Veil tear. They won't be as in depth as that one will be.
You will be the inquisitor first, your class second and your race third. [/quote]

I'm interested in agency over the protagonist's personality and choices, and some variants depending on cultural views. I'm sure not every Tal-Vasoth, Dwarven, or Elven protagonist is going to feel the same way, or even see the world in the same way.

[Shadow Fox]

Former_Fiend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...



And as i said slavers decision she supported was easy way out and i rly doubt that she cares about what being warden is so only one of few her suggestions can be associated with sorry not my problem than kill them all it will be funny.

Well if we go about murderers we have all our companions including pc and most characters in da as bad.Leliana was bad person in her past but she throwed that (until da 2) when she have psycho she is 1 of 3 companions that encourages to help others and not being pr****.  And even zevran can be convinced to end in gray area like chaotic neutral and throw his path well he is amoral still but he is more you don't hurt me i don't hurt you in da 2. as well isabela who can be convinced into more heroic person if she is rival.
Morrigan is only one party mebmber who is "kill them all" for no reason so she end as most dark companion.

You say "easy way out", I say "pragmatic".

Morrigan can go through a fair amount of character development herself if you befriend or romance her and she seems to have significantly improved her disposition come Witch Hunt. 

And I still find that a person's actions are more important than their attitude. Morrigan suggests morally reprehensible things. The other companions have actually done morally reprehensible things. No amount of "She suggests this" is going to convince me that she's a darker companion than the guy who slaughtered a family, women and children, or the guy who spat in the face of the woman who loved him before coldly executing her as she begged for mercy. 

And you're free to believe that however to me a lot of Morrigan's suggestions seem to be "evil for evil's sake" because  Bioware needed someone to suggest the "evil" choices wheras Sten's are pragmatic because he actually gives reasons aside of "For the Power" and "I don't like these guys".

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Fair enough.  Meeting different types of Dalish characters would be pretty good. I'd also like to get some better insight into their history, their thoughts, and their culture. It seems like some of the clans vary to differing degrees, and some to more extremes.

Yeah, seeing multiple clans and being able to compare them to one another would be interesting. Particularily if they do not agree. Especially if the source of their conflict is something fundamental.

It may very well come down to that. Speaking of which, I wonder if that's how it might be handled with Cassandra and a Dalish Inquisitor, unless she's no longer associated with the Chantry. I imagine a mage protagonist could voice some opposition to working with a templar, or a member of the Chantry organization, and I'm curious how it'll be addressed if she's a mandatory companion.

This is also one of those things that are difficult to tell. It all depends on the first impression she makes, what she tells our characters and so forth. For all we know she might be defecting (or just pretend she does). Or she's like Miranda in that, while part of an organisation, she supports essentially anything you do without hesitation.

Their reaction could be impacted by what type of group your main character is leading, which is the impression I get from what the developers have talked about with how you can lead the Inquisition, and how your choices will be reflected in how the organization is being developed.

I'm fairly certain action will matter more than composition.

I'd be surprised if the Dalish didn't have their own variant of the Spirit school, since WoT suggests that Dalish avoid forms of magic that involves spirits, while it does read that the magic of the People is heavily involved in nature, with a "heavy emphasis on herbalism and healing".

That's not spirit though. It's creation (with a touch of primal).

I'm interested in agency over the protagonist's personality and choices, and some variants depending on cultural views. I'm sure not every Tal-Vasoth, Dwarven, or Elven protagonist is going to feel the same way, or even see the world in the same way.

I'm interested in this as well, believe me. Hopefully those are not the only options that would provide unique cultural insights and challenges. I'm hoping for some for my Orlesian as well.

[RobRam10]

I want to hunt the Dalish and burn the ruins of the Dales, oh and salting its earth.

Modifié par RobRam10, 12 octobre 2013 - 08:12 .