234 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I don't think Lambert's faction of templars would leave the Dalish alone, period. Many templars, most I think become red templars, are religious zealots. They'll genuinely believe they are doing the Maker's word as they slaughter people.

I didn't get that impression.
Most templars with ran across are actually pragmatic sorts who lock up mages because it's the smart/right thing to do. Not because "the Maker wills it!"
Being andrastian or devout is not a requirement for locking up mages.

Most Andrastians either hate mages,fear them,or both.

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I don't think Lambert's faction of templars would leave the Dalish alone, period. Many templars, most I think become red templars, are religious zealots. They'll genuinely believe they are doing the Maker's word as they slaughter people.

I didn't get that impression.
Most templars with ran across are actually pragmatic sorts who lock up mages because it's the smart/right thing to do. Not because "the Maker wills it!"
Being andrastian or devout is not a requirement for locking up mages.

There is a codex that says explicitly that tempalrs are picked for their devout fanaticism and not their skill or competence.

It's actually the templar codex itself.

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I don't think Lambert's faction of templars would leave the Dalish alone, period. Many templars, most I think become red templars, are religious zealots. They'll genuinely believe they are doing the Maker's word as they slaughter people.

I didn't get that impression.
Most templars with ran across are actually pragmatic sorts who lock up mages because it's the smart/right thing to do. Not because "the Maker wills it!"
Being andrastian or devout is not a requirement for locking up mages.

Most Andrastians either hate mages,fear them,or both.

[Medhia Nox]

So I wonder why Alistair was thought to be a good choice for the Templars?

Neither devoutly fanatical - nor skillful or competent.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Most templars with ran across are actually pragmatic sorts who lock up mages because it's the smart/right thing to do. Not because "the Maker wills it!"
Being andrastian or devout is not a requirement for locking up mages.

There is a codex that says explicitly that tempalrs are picked for their devout fanaticism and not their skill or competence.

It's actually the templar codex itself.

There you go. 

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So I wonder why Alistair was thought to be a good choice for the Templars?

Neither devoutly fanatical - nor skillful or competent.

I can think of a few reasons. One, he was the son of King Maric, and the Chantry did know. Alistair talks about how the boys at the monastery would treat him differently. The common-born would think he'd put on airs, while the nobles called him a bastard and ignored him.

Two, the choice was made for him, and he probably didn't have the skills necessary to go out an become a merchant or a farmer, and everyone wanted to keep him away from the throne, so no one in power wanted him joining the military and raising an army under his banner, or what have you.

I think it was mainly a way to keep Cailan's rule uncontested and to have a potentially powerul pawn.

[Vilegrim]

Aolbain wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...
That will be the price of ending the threat, better the world burn than the chantry survive.

If the world burns in that playthrough so be it.  Annihlation is better than continued submission.

This is why no one likes revolution. They always end in "KillKillKill!"

Better than a gilded cage, being raped by fanatics and lobotomised if you complain.  You leave people only one option: that being fight, then they absolutly have to fight till you are obliterated, every city raised, every stronghold stormed  for if they ever let you get up again, they will be obliterated themselves.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Actually what it says is in the templar codex entry in Dragon Age Origins is "In reality the Chantry's militant arm looks for skilled warriors with an unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern."

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Actually what it says is in the templar codex entry in Dragon Age Origins is "In reality the Chantry's militant arm looks for skilled warriors with an unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern."

And then says that the reason is so they won't question their orders.

And when you have people like Lambert and Meredith in charge, who believe they aren't answerable to a higher power, it's like-minded individuals who get recruited, and you have an army of zealots.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yeah it says "Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue that might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices."

That doesn't mean it's only an army of zealots. We saw plenty that weren't.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 02 octobre 2013 - 04:39 .

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Yeah it says "Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue that might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices."

That doesn't mean it's only an army of zealots. We saw plenty that weren't.

I never said they were only an army of zealots. I have cited many examples of such plenty of times in the past. To name a few, yet again, Ser Bryant, Ser Otto, Ser Gregoire takes Irving's word over Cullen's, Ser Thrask caring for the mages themselves and tries to help the however he can, Kerren quits the templars because he feels serving under Meredith is not for the greater good, etc.

What I have said is that many templars recruited are zealots, and that when the zealots are in charge, the ones who get promoted and gain the power, are more zealots. And when zealots are in charge of the seekers, the templars lose the oversight that would keep them in line, and suddenly the mages go through one abuse after another and legally can't do anything about it, and when they do decide to withdraw from the situation, aka declare independence, it's considered worthy of slaughter by those same zealots in charge.

[Medhia Nox]

I would SO love to see Sir Greagor in this as a moderate templar. I personally thought he and Irving had a "thing", but whatever the case - he loved those mages regardless. I got the impression that Greagor thought the world was as dangerous to the mages as the mages were to the world.

I found him to be one of the more complex characters (even for his brief screentime) in DA.

Whatever the case, he certainly was no mage hating fanatic.

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I would SO love to see Sir Greagor in this as a moderate templar. I personally thought he and Irving had a "thing", but whatever the case - he loved those mages regardless. I got the impression that Greagor thought the world was as dangerous to the mages as the mages were to the world.

I found him to be one of the more complex characters (even for his brief screentime) in DA.

Whatever the case, he certainly was no mage hating fanatic.

Like him or hate him, he took his duty seriously and respectfully. I personally like him.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I would SO love to see Sir Greagor in this as a moderate templar. I personally thought he and Irving had a "thing", but whatever the case - he loved those mages regardless. I got the impression that Greagor thought the world was as dangerous to the mages as the mages were to the world.

I found him to be one of the more complex characters (even for his brief screentime) in DA.

Whatever the case, he certainly was no mage hating fanatic.

Since the Chantry recruits templars who have either developed a hatred for magic because of past experiences(Meredith,Lambert)or are taught to hate mages from those around them, then the ones like Gregoire,Ser Trask,Evangeline,Ser Otto and Emeric are in the minority.

[cjones91]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

I would SO love to see Sir Greagor in this as a moderate templar. I personally thought he and Irving had a "thing", but whatever the case - he loved those mages regardless. I got the impression that Greagor thought the world was as dangerous to the mages as the mages were to the world.

I found him to be one of the more complex characters (even for his brief screentime) in DA.

Whatever the case, he certainly was no mage hating fanatic.

Like him or hate him, he took his duty seriously and respectfully. I personally like him.

Me too,him and Evangeline are what the Templars are supposed to be IMO.

[dragonflight288]

cjones91 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

I would SO love to see Sir Greagor in this as a moderate templar. I personally thought he and Irving had a "thing", but whatever the case - he loved those mages regardless. I got the impression that Greagor thought the world was as dangerous to the mages as the mages were to the world.

I found him to be one of the more complex characters (even for his brief screentime) in DA.

Whatever the case, he certainly was no mage hating fanatic.

Like him or hate him, he took his duty seriously and respectfully. I personally like him.

Me too,him and Evangeline are what the Templars are supposed to be IMO.

I agree.

[Medhia Nox]

@cjones91: I don't disagree with you. Just like I really can't stand when people defend blood magic based off headcanon and not what is shown (and what is shown is that 99% percent of blood magic is performed by base degenerates) - I would never say that the Templars are a sensible organization that doesn't need any serious reform.

However - I think a deeper story would have had more Irvings, Wynnes, Greagors and Trasks and Evangelines... and less, every obnoxious fanatic.

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I don't disagree with you. Just like I really can't stand when people defend blood magic based off headcanon and not what is shown (and what is shown is that 99% percent of blood magic is performed by base degenerates) - I would never say that the Templars are a sensible organization that doesn't need any serious reform.

However - I think a deeper story would have had more Irvings, Wynnes, Greagors and Trasks and Evangelines... and less, every obnoxious fanatic.

And would actually sway more pro-mages to the side of the templars if there were more reasonable templars. Problem is.....Lambert and Meredith pretty much set the stereotype that the templars feel they are above the law or any authority.

[Medhia Nox]

@dragonflight: Certainly not gonna argue that.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight: Certainly not gonna argue that.

Imagine if there were more templars like Gregoire and Evangeline.....then the extremists would'nt have so much power and the Mage-Templar war would'nt have happened.

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight: Certainly not gonna argue that.

Imagine if there were more templars like Gregoire and Evangeline.....then the extremists would'nt have so much power and the Mage-Templar war would'nt have happened.

I imagine that's what the writers thought when they decided to put in more fanatics.  Same thing for the mages with all the psychotic blood mages and abominations

My opinion stands that they overdid it drastically on both counts in DA2

[dragonflight288]

Lord Aesir wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@dragonflight: Certainly not gonna argue that.

Imagine if there were more templars like Gregoire and Evangeline.....then the extremists would'nt have so much power and the Mage-Templar war would'nt have happened.

I imagine that's what the writers thought when they decided to put in more fanatics.  Same thing for the mages with all the psychotic blood mages and abominations

My opinion stands that they overdid it drastically on both counts in DA2

They also acknowledge that they overdid it.

[Todd23]

@dragonflight Apparently they intended to overdo it to sort of burn the memory of the worst examples of each faction into the memory of the players to prepare for DAI. Which suggests Gregoire like characters and more.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
We have a year to do little more than speculate. [/quote]

This is true, but it carries the risk of being terribly wrong. The templars (and the inqusition's and the Dalish) positions will be determined by their current political situation. At this point we have little more than ideological broad strokes, but it's practical details that will determine everything. [/quote]

I'm sure the practical details of the story will change things; I was hoping that apostate Hawke could turn Kirkwall into a mecca for mages back before Dragon Age II was released, and that certainly didn't turn out to be the case. Overall, I'm hoping for a good story with a an elven mage who properly reflects the cultural attitude and view that a Dalish elf would hold. Perhaps a modern day Illoren? Who knows.

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I wonder where the templars would have found red lyrium. If there's an entire splinter faction of them, they must have found it somewhere. And who would be giving it to them, especially if it's located somewhere in the Deep Roads, such as the primeval thaig?

I think reactivity would be good. I'd rather not see templars acting 'blind' to an apostate (or a maleficar, in the case of a Dalish mage). Perhaps the Red Templars are another enemy who Lambert's faction needs to contend with[/quote]

Indeed. Mind you, the game will probably not lock you out of templars (if available) just because you chose to be Dalish, much like Origin's didn't. Nor do I suspect will their allegiance be easier or more dififcult to earn. What you'll do will weigh more heavily than what you are. [/quote]

It's not that I'm opposed to the idea of a mage protagonist working with templars, but I'm hoping it's properly addressed (rather than ignored). Especially for a maleficar, since a Dalish mage would technically be using magic that's not sanctioned by the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars.

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Possibly, even though I must admit I find the idea of the templars working with a maleficar to be odd.[/quote]

Pragmatism goes further in war than ideology does. If they're in a position that they cannot ignore you without losing a lot (possibly the war alltogether), they'll have some soul searching to go through. [/quote]

I suppose that's true, but would the templars eventually expect an elven mage to enter the Circle of Magi (under their juristiction) once all is said and done? Would some templars have a problem with a maleficar, and cause a rift among the ranks? The reactivity interests me, since I imagine some pro-templar players might play as a Dalis elf and want to work with the templars, even as a mage.

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If the protagonists end up having different voices, it could be easier to have a Dalish Inquisitor use the proper terminology. If that isn't the case, I'm hoping it won't come across with the Dalish Inquisitor feeling like a re-skinned Andrastian.[/quote]

It still have to be written, you know. Which I suspect is the time consuming bit.

Given our previous discussions on what exactly makes an Andrastian, I'll advice you not to set yourself up for disappointment. You're not going to get a uniquely dalish point of view in every, or even the majority, of conversations. You might get a race-specific line here and there. But don't expect more (I hope, but don't expect, Bioware will prove me wrong here btw).

For all intents and purposes, I'd expect a re-skinned Andrastian with token lines. Equal to, or slightly less than, Origins in it's reactivity to your race. Anything beyond that will be a happy bonus.

It's well worth pointing out that the conversations will have to be written with new players in mind. Replacing Fade and demons with Dalish terms would be a rather confusing thing to people not as well versed in lore as the two of us. Similarly, you might not get the option to protest something simply for the same reason. Not to confuse. [/quote]

I'm assuming the inclusion of racial options, now that the developers have a year to implement them, would be properly addressed. I'm hoping it wouldn't simply be an Andrastian protagonist who is taller, shorter, or has pointy ears; it would be nice for the cultural background and perspective to be implemented, and I think it can be done so new fans can understand, instead of dumbing it down.

It's the cultural perspective that appeals to me; the difference in playing as a character who has a unique look at things that is starkly different than the one held by all Andrastians. How would a Dalish elf feel about Orlais and Tevinter, given the history the elves have had with these two societies? The Dalish don't hold the same view of the Beyond as Andrastians do of the Fade. How will that be reflected during the times the characters need to travel to the Beyond, especially when Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, to the point of avoiding magic that involves spirits as a consequence?

The differences are what interest me as a player. If the Inquisitor is little more than a re-skinned Andrastian with token lines, then I don't see the point. 

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Have the developers said it will be a primarily human organization? Not that I doubt it, but I've wondered if Dwarves, Elves, or Kossith wouldn't flock to the organization of the Inquisitor was the same race. [/quote]

Call it a hunch of mine. [/quote]

I'm hoping your hunch is wrong, even though I wouldn't put much stock in it being wrong. If it is a primarily human organization, I have to wonder what the soldiers would think about following the commands of a Dalish Inquisitor (or even a Tal Vasoth Inquisitor). I'm hoping it wouldn't be glossed over.

[quote]Sir JK wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That's a possibility, that he might be a pariah among his clan like Merrill, but I would like to be in a position to help them. It would be the same as playing as a templar Inquisitor - wouldn't you want the opportunity to help the Order, rather than being denied the choice?[/quote]

I would prefer to have the option, yes. I'm just saying that building a character now that revolves around the option being there and leading the templars to their desired goals would probably be a mistake .
[/quote]

I've wanted the opportunity to play as a Dalish mage for some time, and it's something I lamented when we first heard about Inquisition, back when we were told the Inquisitor would be 'human only'. The idea of playing as a protagonist who only looks Dalish, and has no real cultural identity with the People or any narrative that reflects his elven status - wouldn't be very interesting to me.

What interests me is the reactivity around a Dalish protagonist travelling to Orlais and Tevinter, how the world reacts to a powerful elven mage of the People. Might the rebel mages see him as an ally, or an enemy? How will the templars following Lambert and Divine Justina V react? How will Andrastians feel about a 'heathen' stopping a threat to all of Thedas? How will the elves, in particular, response to an elven champion who is gaining power and strength across the continent?

A re-skinned Andrastian human simply doesn't interest me. It's why I'd like to have the opportunity to help the elves in the Dales, rather than deal with the political situation in Orlais and ignore the plight of the elves. If the alternative is capitulation to Empress Celene or Grand Duke Gaspard, I wouldn't find it entertaining.

[Steppenwolf]

Did I miss something? Lambert is dead so how would he have any factions?