234 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
This may be wrong, but I think he means elves as a distinctive culture and not a Chantry-brutalized, half-enslaved, almost-completely-amnesiac one.

I fully support a distinct culture for the elves. Just not an isolationist racist one, based on promoting and creating a racially pure state to advance an agenda of racial supremacy. 

Fine, provided there's some other way to undo the Quickening.

[Angrywolves]

No, they'll be too busy to bother the elves.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Fine, provided there's some other way to undo the Quickening.

You mean, if it isn't entirely made up. That's my point. This is where all of the debate starts with, because I find this entire notion so unbeliavably offensive and obnoxious , when DA was announced, it was almost impossible to wrap my head around how a culture could exist around it and not just be an outright antagonist. 

I can't even think of an IRL parallel where we have a religion that actually views the majority of the world as parasites that have to be kept quarantined. 

Anywyay, see my PM for what I think the elves should do. 

Modifié par In Exile, 03 octobre 2013 - 03:13 .

[Steelcan]

In Exile wrote...

I can't even think of an IRL parallel where we have a religion that actually views the majority of the world as parasites that have to be kept quarantined. 

Japanese religion, mostly a weird mesh of Shinto and Buddhism in the lead up to WW2, N*zi mysticism, Judaism carries strains of this as well.

Modifié par Steelcan, 03 octobre 2013 - 03:16 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Steelcan: Are you sure the religions actually promoted this? Or the xenophobic people following them? I think there is a difference.

[Steelcan]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Steelcan: Are you sure the religions actually promoted this? Or the xenophobic people following them? I think there is a difference.

I hate to use the phrase "Shinto Doctrine" because it is such a glossing over of such varied oral traditions, mythology, etc... But for arguments sake... Shinto preaches that japan is land directly created by the gods and chosen by the gods for greatness, all other lands were created and inhabited by demons.

I don't need to explain our favorite Germans do I?

And in Judaism, the Israelites are not known for their kindnes and acceptance of foreign cultures, see the Canaanites...

Modifié par Steelcan, 03 octobre 2013 - 03:23 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see why all the racial backgrounds shouldn't be more than flavor,

Because Bioware's never made a game like that, and the last DA game where racial backgrounds were a thing, they were nothing more than flavour?

I forgot how you think your opinion is indisputable fact. Excuse me for that. Your opinion aside, I think racial options should matter.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

...you've continually expressed nothing but contempt for the concept of the People. 

Only in your head is this true.

I think the word you're looking for is reality.

In Exile wrote...

I've expressed contempt for your personal promotion of ethnic cleansing, and that I think the Dalish have some very racist views, but that's very far removed from contempt of "the People", which I can only take to mean the elves. If so, then given that I've often been on the record for the CEs needing to violenty rise up and gain indepence... well, you're making stuff up, like usual. 

I promote protection against mass killings of men, women, and children in purges. Against templars hunting the Dalish clans. Against religious persecution. When the elves are subjugated and persecuted all over the continent, a homeland could give them sanctuary. A homeland could give the elves all that, and do much more.

Also, the People refers to the Dalish.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
This may be wrong, but I think he means elves as a distinctive culture and not a Chantry-brutalized, half-enslaved, almost-completely-amnesiac one.

I fully support a distinct culture for the elves. Just not an isolationist racist one, based on promoting and creating a racially pure state to advance an agenda of racial supremacy. 

Fine, provided there's some other way to undo the Quickening.

'Some other' implies there's one in the first place.

We're aren't going to go back to you advocating the genocide of all non-elves to try and regain the immortality as the moral option, are we? Because that was really, really stupid the last time you tried to advance that argument, especially since you started with 'well we'll just close the borders' and started backtracking from there as you were pressed to concede that that wouldn't work.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This may be wrong, but I think he means elves as a distinctive culture and not a Chantry-brutalized, half-enslaved, almost-completely-amnesiac one.

I fully support a distinct culture for the elves. Just not an isolationist racist one, based on promoting and creating a racially pure state to advance an agenda of racial supremacy. 

Just because you find the Quickening and human/elven couplings producing human children to be racist concepts doesn't make the Dalish clans, or their desire to prevent the extinction of their race, racist. Your opinion on the People aside, the Dalish refused to abdicate their religion and their culture. I respect their refusal to surrender that last inch of themselves, when the Chantry took so much from them. It's why I find them to be such an interesting concept, despite the hatred some posters have about the People.

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: So, because you respect them - you exonerate them of any evils they might commit?

That's fanaticism - not lucid thinking.

Also - I'm fairly certain that Dalish culture is wholly unique to the current elves. I'm fairly certain the elves of the world spanning empire before humans were not nomadic tribal wood elf types.

Their architecture certainly suggests that the current Dalish culture would have been extraordinarily foreign to "real" elves.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 octobre 2013 - 03:39 .

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: So, because you respect them - you exonerate them of any evils they might commit?

That's fanaticism - not lucid thinking.

I've condemned Dalish characters when they have done wrong (like the attempted murder of Merrill and Hawke by the Sabrae clan), so I don't see where you're getting this from.

Is it the Dalish codex and the elven Warden claiming that the Chantry started the war with an invasion of the Dales? Because I know the pro-Chantry and pro-templar posters really despise that alternative to the Chantry version, but that doesn't mean players who think it could be accurate must assume that elves are perpetually blameless.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Also - I'm fairly certain that Dalish culture is wholly unique to the current elves. I'm fairly certain the elves of the world spanning empire before humans were not nomadic tribal wood elf types.

Their architecture certainly suggests that the current Dalish culture would have been extraordinarily foreign to "real" elves.

The Dalish adapted - including their magic, which is "deeply rooted in nature", as per WoT, 104.

[In Exile]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I forgot how you think your opinion is indisputable fact. Excuse me for that. Your opinion aside, I think racial options should matter. [/quote]

I never said it was fact. I offered a belief coupled with a justification. I think racial options should matter. I just also think they won't matter, because Bioware's never designed a game like that. Sure, Bioware could turn around and design something different this time. It's possible. But since there's no evidence for it, I think it's fair to temper expectations in-line with past performance and past offerings. 

[quiote]I promote protection against mass killings of men, women, and children in purges. [/quote]

Read this sentence over. You openly admit to promoting purges!. What do you promote when those people refuse to leave? What do you promote when they use force to protect the homes and land that you're actively taking from them?

Kill them all, isn't that right? 

[quote]Against templars hunting the Dalish clans. Against religious persecution. When the elves are subjugated and persecuted all over the continent, a homeland could give them sanctuary. A homeland could give the elves all that, and do much more.[/quote]

Genocide isn't justified. Ever. Forced relocation isn't justified. Ever. Purges and ethnic cleansing are justified. Ever. 

[quote]Also, the People refers to the Dalish.[/quote]

The city elves don't count as elves, right?

[Xilizhra]

Read this sentence over. You openly admit to promoting purges!. What do you promote when those people refuse to leave? What do you promote when they use force to protect the homes and land that you're actively taking from them?

Um, no. He was referring to purges of the city elves by humans. Which are bad things.

Genocide isn't justified. Ever. Forced relocation isn't justified. Ever. Purges and ethnic cleansing are justified. Ever.

*coughIthinkyoupickedDestroycough*

The city elves don't count as elves, right?

Culture with any sort of elven tradition behind it was steadily ripped out of them until all they've got is a tree and a special word for "elder" whose real meaning they don't know anymore. It's like pulling an American black guy out of Harlem and calling him African; there's certainly an ethnic line, but a huge cultural drift.

Really, to the Dalish, "elf" is like "qunari," both a racial and a religious/cultural term. Except the Dalish make it a little less confusing by using "elvhen" for the religious/cultural one as well.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 03 octobre 2013 - 04:51 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Just because you find the Quickening and human/elven couplings producing human children to be racist concepts doesn't make the Dalish clans, or their desire to prevent the extinction of their race, racist.

That's not what I find racist. I find the idea that some advocate that elves shouldn't pair with humans repugnant because it's an absolute invasion into personal liberty, but I don't think it's racist. I don't think the elves wanting to isolate themselves is racist, because lots of countries might want to pursue that as an agenda. I think the Dalish refusing to allow humans to subjugate their culture is actually comendable. And I think there's something very noble in sacrificing to protect your identity, and a quintessential part of the human condition (speaking IRL now). 

What is racist is the belief that elves are inherently superior beings, who lost part of their superiority because humans committed the grave sin of existing next to them, and who want to create a state where humans aren't allowed to exist next to them, so that they can then breed elf-to-elf for generations to create a race of all-mage immortals. The last person that had this particular fantasy is ... well... let's say the word "ubermensch" was used in that context. 

And it's not as if the elves haven't had insanely racist views because of this belief, either. Just look at what the Dalish elves say about what the elves of Arlathan thought (from Arlathan: Part One): 

The humans first arrived from Par Vollen to the north. Called shemlen, or "quicklings," by the ancients, the humans were pitiful creatures whose lives blinked by in an instant. When they first met the elves, the humans were brash and warlike, quick to anger and quicker to fight, with no patience for the unhurried pace of elven diplomacy.

Notice how the entry doesn't even bother to describe humans as "people". They're "creatures" - base things. The tone is clearly half-scorn and half-pitty.

... those elves who spent time bartering and negotiating with humans found themselves aging, tainted by the humans'  ... Our ancestors came to look upon the humans as parasites, which I understand is similar to the way the humans see our people in the cities....

The old elves were "tainted" by the humans, which were "parasites". That view is openly admited to be "similar" to how humans view the CEs today.

You've spent countless posts talking about the incredible racism of "Andrastian humans" towards the elves. Well, the Dalish openly attribute the same views to their ancestors. This. Is. Racist. This is why this view about immortality is morally repugnant.  

Your opinion on the People aside, the Dalish refused to abdicate their religion and their culture. I respect their refusal to surrender that last inch of themselves, when the Chantry took so much from them. It's why I find them to be such an interesting concept, despite the hatred some posters have about the People.

I think it's quite respectable that the Dalish won't refuse their culture, even if their culture is abhorent in parts. I'd personally cheer them on if it wasn't for that one bit of absolute racism. It leads to horrible, horrible beliefs, and when you combine it with power it leads to genocide. It doesn't even take a lot of power, as you helpfuly indicate by advocating ethnic purges. 

[Xilizhra]

And it's not as if the elves haven't had insanely racist views because of this belief, either. Just look at what the Dalish elves say about what the elves of Arlathan thought (from Arlathan: Part One):

I think it's more likely to do with being kind of irked at the humans for annihilating their homeland twice over, but who knows?

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Um, no. He was referring to purges of the city elves by humans. Which are bad things.

You're right. I misread the context.

*coughIthinkyoupickedDestroycough*

I actually threw my game disk away. The only time I played the game I thought, this "synthesis" thing doesn't sound bad pre-EC at 3AM... but otherwise I've never played the game again and think ME4 is a "pick your genocide" ending: self-inflict (refuse), race-based (destroy), complicit (control) or cultural (synthesis). 

Culture with any sort of elven tradition behind it was steadily ripped out of them until all they've got is a tree and a special word for "elder" whose real meaning they don't know anymore. It's like pulling an American black guy out of Harlem and calling him African; there's certainly an ethnic line, but a huge cultural drift.

So you agree with me that being elven is cultural, meaning that if elves mate exclusiely human-to-elf absolutely nothing is lost? Because that's not what you would have said as recently as yesterday. 

Really, to the Dalish, "elf" is like "qunari," both a racial and a religious/cultural term. Except the Dalish make it a little less confusing by using "elvhen" for the religious/cultural one as well.

Also like the qunari, it's a term they only apply to themselves, really. 

Modifié par In Exile, 03 octobre 2013 - 04:59 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see why all the racial backgrounds shouldn't be more than flavor,

Because Bioware's never made a game like that, and the last DA game where racial backgrounds were a thing, they were nothing more than flavour?

I forgot how you think your opinion is indisputable fact. Excuse me for that. Your opinion aside, I think racial options should matter.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

...you've continually expressed nothing but contempt for the concept of the People. 

Only in your head is this true.

I think the word you're looking for is reality.

In Exile wrote...

I've expressed contempt for your personal promotion of ethnic cleansing, and that I think the Dalish have some very racist views, but that's very far removed from contempt of "the People", which I can only take to mean the elves. If so, then given that I've often been on the record for the CEs needing to violenty rise up and gain indepence... well, you're making stuff up, like usual. 

I promote protection against mass killings of men, women, and children in purges. Against templars hunting the Dalish clans. Against religious persecution. When the elves are subjugated and persecuted all over the continent, a homeland could give them sanctuary. A homeland could give the elves all that, and do much more.

Also, the People refers to the Dalish.

OK, without jumping back into the whole morality argument about the Dales that we all went round and round with in the other threads, I think the salient point here is this: practically speaking, you're probably just expecting too much from Bioware in the way of features for DAI. You yourself admitted that you anticipated to be able to make major changes to Kirkwall as a Mage Hawke which didn't remotely turn out to be part of the game. Isn't it a little unrealistic to expect PC background choices to matter so much more than they did before?

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
I think it's more likely to do with being kind of irked at the humans for annihilating their homeland twice over, but who knows?

That codex attributes that view to the Arlathan elves, who didn't lose a homeland at all. And if you're saying that the current Dalish think this... again, that's a really, really racist codex entry. 

[Xilizhra]

I actually threw my game disk away. The only time I played the game I thought, this "synthesis" thing doesn't sound bad pre-EC at 3AM... but otherwise I've never played the game again and think ME4 is a "pick your genocide" ending: self-inflict (refuse), race-based (destroy), complicit (control) or cultural (synthesis).

Life's a **** when you have to save the galaxy.

So you agree with me that being elven is cultural, meaning that if elves mate exclusiely human-to-elf absolutely nothing is lost? Because that's not what you would have said as recently as yesterday.

Unconfirmed, but I don't want to try it, because if DAO stats are any indication, humans and elves have demonstrable inherent physiological differences, and in the case of elves, it involves greater magical aptitude. I don't want to just throw this away, especially not before figuring out the truth behind Arlathan.

That codex attributes that view to the Arlathan elves, who didn't lose a homeland at all. And if you're saying that the current Dalish think this... again, that's a really, really racist codex entry.

It obviously wasn't written by anyone who actually lived in Arlathan, so you know, possible selective memory going on here. It's also why I've decided to not care overmuch about either side's view of the fall of the Dales; all that matters is that Orlais is sitting on stolen land, which is a fact.

[Shadow Fox]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I think my favorite part of this thread is that it is acceptable for the elves to commit genocide

The Aldmeri Dominion approves: <3100

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Life's a **** when you have to save the galaxy.

I appreciate the moral dillema in the abstract, and if I had to make a choice pragmatically, I don't know what I'd end up putting my money down. Probably control + the hope to fly everything into the sun immediately. It seems like the least bad form of genocide, and you know my feelings on control.

Unconfirmed, but I don't want to try it, because if DAO stats are any indication, humans and elves have demonstrable inherent physiological differences, and in the case of elves, it involves greater magical aptitude. I don't want to just throw this away, especially not before figuring out the truth behind Arlathan.

I was being a bit snarky. I understand your feelings on this point. I'm just saying, if you accept being elven is a physical thing, then you have to see a problem with the Dalish view that being elven is exclusively a cultural thing. Elves can't stop being elves even if they act identical to humans in all possible respects because of this intrinsic "elvenness" about their physicality. 

It obviously wasn't written by anyone who actually lived in Arlathan, so you know, possible selective memory going on here. It's also why I've decided to not care overmuch about either side's view of the fall of the Dales; all that matters is that Orlais is sitting on stolen land, which is a fact.

I could break it down into a matrix, but the gist of it is that basically that codex either tells us what the Dalish believe and are projecting onto their ancestors, or what the ancestors believed alone. In either case, we see how the belief about immortality leads to some absolutely horrible beliefs about humans - really racist and, for lack of a better word, dehumanizing beliefs. 

That's really bad. That's what I'm opposed to. 

As for the Dales... I stand by my original view, which is that the homeland for the elves is the Arlathan forest and that's the land they should take back from the Tevinters, the people who stole it from them.

[dragonflight288]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I think my favorite part of this thread is that it is acceptable for the elves to commit genocide

For me personally, I find it just as acceptable that the elves commit genocide as much as the templars....meaning not at all.

But if the humans living in the Dales are already displaced because of the Orlesian civil war...then there wouldn't be a need to drive humans from the area or slaughter them, and the elves can simply set up shop and say "this is our land now. ****** off."