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[Shadow Fox]

Xilizhra wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No she doesn't she never regrets it Sten atleast didn't try to justify what he did.

And are people seriously defending a mass murderer because she's Elven?

She winds up finding redemption. Sten doesn't.

Also, Zevran.

Sten helps kill an Archdemon thus saving all of Thedas wheras Velanna saves one city or Keep.

But Sten's still personally evil.

How? Outside of his episode he never hurt or expressed a desire to hurt anyone.Wheras Velanna actively killed people and remained unrepentant about her actions.

[Medhia Nox]

@Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke: But she's a mage elf... that means all her bad days, and the hurt feelings of both groups, excuse her for slaughter.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 octobre 2013 - 09:28 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You know I wasn't a fan of the morality any of the three characters. Zevran met a violent end in 2 out of 3 times for me as well. Although in fairness one was because he betrayed me.

Arguing about which of three is the most evil is largely irrelevant, because all of them are pretty bad.

[Medhia Nox]

@Morocco Mole: Are you disagreeing with me? I should crush your evil... I feel oppressed by you, so I'm totally justified in killing you and your whole family.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 octobre 2013 - 09:30 .

[Herr Uhl]

Taleroth wrote...

Also, it's suggested that Sten is not repetant in the way you think. He's mostly upset that he lost his sword. And second place seems to go to him being upset about having an emotional outburst. Distant third is the killing of innocents.

I am used to deferring to your judgement on character motivations, but I disagree in this case.

Xilizhra wrote...

Sten's much worse. He'd have killed every last human there without any regret if the Qun demanded it. Velanna takes longer to get past her ingrained issues, but the point is that she does: Sten never does.

He would've? Well, whoop di do. We are going to judge on hypotheticals then. I'll give something the game actually tells you. If you don't recruit Velanna, she ends up killing humans indiscriminately again. In the end, they had to make a new road.

By your standards, I'm sure being Andrastian would qualify someone to be evil by default as well.

[Shadow Fox]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know I wasn't a fan of the morality any of the three characters. Zevran met a violent end in 2 out of 3 times for me as well. Although in fairness one was because he betrayed me.

Arguing about which of three is the most evil is largely irrelevant, because all of them are pretty bad.

I'd argue Morrigan's just as bad too but my point is you can't condemn Sten yet defend Velanna in the same breath.

[Taleroth]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Also, it's suggested that Sten is not repetant in the way you think. He's mostly upset that he lost his sword. And second place seems to go to him being upset about having an emotional outburst. Distant third is the killing of innocents.

I am used to deferring to your judgement on character motivations, but I disagree in this case.

Feel free, it's merely suggested. They kind of kept it open. I'm not married to that intrepretation of the character either. I'd like to believe he has a bit more "humanity" than that. Especially towards the end there.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 octobre 2013 - 09:43 .

[Taleroth]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I think Sten likely cares that he murdered those people. Though not in the way we probably would. He dishonored the Qun by killing potential converts and making the qunari look like savage beasts in the process.

This of course, does not make him "evil"

That probably fits him better than what I said.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know I wasn't a fan of the morality any of the three characters. Zevran met a violent end in 2 out of 3 times for me as well. Although in fairness one was because he betrayed me.

Arguing about which of three is the most evil is largely irrelevant, because all of them are pretty bad.

I'd argue Morrigan's just as bad too but my point is you can't condemn Sten yet defend Velanna in the same breath.

Morrigan is queen of evil companions in da ,she have no competition.And yes that true even if others try paint her otherwise.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 03 octobre 2013 - 09:51 .

[Xilizhra]

How? Outside of his episode he never hurt or expressed a desire to hurt anyone.Wheras Velanna actively killed people and remained unrepentant about her actions.

He's a soldier for the Qun and outright said that the qunari would return to invade the rest of Thedas, ignoring any peace treaties.

He would've? Well, whoop di do. We are going to judge on hypotheticals then. I'll give something the game actually tells you. If you don't recruit Velanna, she ends up killing humans indiscriminately again. In the end, they had to make a new road.

Which did not happen in my game, so it won't affect any of my characters.

By your standards, I'm sure being Andrastian would qualify someone to be evil by default as well.

It depends on what they're willing to do for it.

[Former_Fiend]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know I wasn't a fan of the morality any of the three characters. Zevran met a violent end in 2 out of 3 times for me as well. Although in fairness one was because he betrayed me.

Arguing about which of three is the most evil is largely irrelevant, because all of them are pretty bad.

I'd argue Morrigan's just as bad too but my point is you can't condemn Sten yet defend Velanna in the same breath.

Morrigan is queen of evil companions in da ,she have no competition.And yes that true even if others try paint her otherwise.

Morrigan never does anything out and out evil in DAO. She advises you towards morally questionable- sometimes reprehensible acts out of a sense of pragmatism, but she never does anything evil. So I'm not inclined to label her as such just because she's a b*tch.

[Medhia Nox]

@Former_Fiend: Actual evil people rarely do anything "out and out" evil.

She's not "just a ****" - she's a cruel, manipulative, craven liar. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 octobre 2013 - 09:59 .

[Former_Fiend]

Xilizhra wrote...

How? Outside of his episode he never hurt or expressed a desire to hurt anyone.Wheras Velanna actively killed people and remained unrepentant about her actions.

He's a soldier for the Qun and outright said that the qunari would return to invade the rest of Thedas, ignoring any peace treaties.

He would've? Well, whoop di do. We are going to judge on hypotheticals then. I'll give something the game actually tells you. If you don't recruit Velanna, she ends up killing humans indiscriminately again. In the end, they had to make a new road.

Which did not happen in my game, so it won't affect any of my characters.

By your standards, I'm sure being Andrastian would qualify someone to be evil by default as well.

It depends on what they're willing to do for it.

Interesting point; the reason the qunari withdrew from their first invasion was to put a stop to civilian deaths at the hands of the Exalted Marches. 

[Taleroth]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Former_Fiend: Actual evil people rarely do anything "out and out" evil.

She's not "just a ****" - she's a cruel, manipulative, craven liar. 

The one thing she's not is a liar. People are upset that she didn't tell about the ritual, but she never lied. And that was the only thing she was arguably deceptive about, only by omission.

It's one of her intended characteristics that she's straightforward to contrast her mother. And it's supported by everything we know.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 octobre 2013 - 10:02 .

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

He would've? Well, whoop di do. We are going to judge on hypotheticals then. I'll give something the game actually tells you. If you don't recruit Velanna, she ends up killing humans indiscriminately again. In the end, they had to make a new road.

Which did not happen in my game, so it won't affect any of my characters.

I like how you used the "Didn't happen in my game" argument

[Medhia Nox]

@Taleroth: Funny thing is "liar" is the least reprehensible trait I listed (in my opinion).

However - I totally disagree with you. I think she utterly lied to get you to try to kill Flemeth (for whatever reason).

Feel free to provide the text within the Grimoire to prove me wrong.

[Former_Fiend]

Taleroth wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Former_Fiend: Actual evil people rarely do anything "out and out" evil.

She's not "just a ****" - she's a cruel, manipulative, craven liar. 

The one thing she's not is a liar. People are upset that she didn't tell about the ritual, but she never lied. And that was the only thing she was arguably deceptive about, only by omission.

It's one of her intended characteristics that she's straightforward to contrast her mother. And it's supported by everything we know.

I also wouldn't describe her as particularly cruel. Callous, sure. She doesn't really care about the suffering of others(unless they're Sten), but she doesn't go out of her way to cause it, nor does she seem to take any particular joy from it.

I don't think Morrigan is a particularly good person by any stretch of the imagination, but she hasn't done anything evil yet. And until she does, I'm not prepared to label her as such.

[Taleroth]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Taleroth: Funny thing is "liar" is the least reprehensible trait I listed (in my opinion).

However - I totally disagree with you. I think she utterly lied to get you to try to kill Flemeth (for whatever reason).

Feel free to provide the text within the Grimoire to prove me wrong.

I'm not going to argue with your imagination.

[Former_Fiend]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Taleroth: Funny thing is "liar" is the least reprehensible trait I listed (in my opinion).

However - I totally disagree with you. I think she utterly lied to get you to try to kill Flemeth (for whatever reason).

Feel free to provide the text within the Grimoire to prove me wrong.

There's no real evidence to support or contradict that. She may have lied to kill Flemeth or she may have been honest. It's impossible to know for sure, so it's a matter of personal interpretation of the characters and events.

I myself believe she was being mostly honest. Perhaps not entirely honest, but mostly.

[Shadow Fox]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How? Outside of his episode he never hurt or expressed a desire to hurt anyone.Wheras Velanna actively killed people and remained unrepentant about her actions.

He's a soldier for the Qun and outright said that the qunari would return to invade the rest of Thedas, ignoring any peace treaties.

He would've? Well, whoop di do. We are going to judge on hypotheticals then. I'll give something the game actually tells you. If you don't recruit Velanna, she ends up killing humans indiscriminately again. In the end, they had to make a new road.

Which did not happen in my game, so it won't affect any of my characters.

By your standards, I'm sure being Andrastian would qualify someone to be evil by default as well.

It depends on what they're willing to do for it.

Interesting point; the reason the qunari withdrew from their first invasion was to put a stop to civilian deaths at the hands of the Exalted Marches. 

See The Qunai can be heroic.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Former_Fiend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know I wasn't a fan of the morality any of the three characters. Zevran met a violent end in 2 out of 3 times for me as well. Although in fairness one was because he betrayed me.

Arguing about which of three is the most evil is largely irrelevant, because all of them are pretty bad.

I'd argue Morrigan's just as bad too but my point is you can't condemn Sten yet defend Velanna in the same breath.

Morrigan is queen of evil companions in da ,she have no competition.And yes that true even if others try paint her otherwise.

Morrigan never does anything out and out evil in DAO. She advises you towards morally questionable- sometimes reprehensible acts out of a sense of pragmatism, but she never does anything evil. So I'm not inclined to label her as such just because she's a b*tch.

She isn't just bi*** she is stupid evil practically convincing you for taking stupid and cruel option what gives nothing or even bring harm on main goal for not other reason just to be cruel and kick others.Well she didn't anything evil because she was in no charge leliana or alistair didn't do anything good as well warden was in charge so he did all things good or bad companions just showed their outlook.

[AresKeith]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Taleroth: Funny thing is "liar" is the least reprehensible trait I listed (in my opinion).

However - I totally disagree with you. I think she utterly lied to get you to try to kill Flemeth (for whatever reason).

Feel free to provide the text within the Grimoire to prove me wrong.

There's no real evidence to support or contradict that. She may have lied to kill Flemeth or she may have been honest. It's impossible to know for sure, so it's a matter of personal interpretation of the characters and events.

I myself believe she was being mostly honest. Perhaps not entirely honest, but mostly.

I consider Morrigan a neutral type 

And I agree, I think she was somewhat honest about it