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[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Which did not happen in my game, so it won't affect any of my characters.

After concluding a murder spree, the onus is usually on the perpetrator to see the fault of their ways. You shouldn't have to actively dote on someone that is shown to be categorically wrong in their stupid assumption in order for them to change their ways.

Edit: In any case, the closest she comes to redemption, even if you jump through all the hoops, is doing what is expected of a Grey Warden. This is of course incredibly commendable.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 03 octobre 2013 - 10:17 .

[Xilizhra]

Interesting point; the reason the qunari withdrew from their first invasion was to put a stop to civilian deaths at the hands of the Exalted Marches.

How amusingly hypocritical.

After concluding a murder spree, the onus is usually on the perpetrator to see the fault of their ways. You shouldn't have to actively dote on someone that is shown to be categorically wrong in their stupid assumption in order for them to change their ways.

In an ideal world, but I'll take what I can get. No reason to condemn someone you can fix.

[Medhia Nox]

@Taleroth: Nor I, with your belligerence.

I defer to your expertise.

[Former_Fiend]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know I wasn't a fan of the morality any of the three characters. Zevran met a violent end in 2 out of 3 times for me as well. Although in fairness one was because he betrayed me.

Arguing about which of three is the most evil is largely irrelevant, because all of them are pretty bad.

I'd argue Morrigan's just as bad too but my point is you can't condemn Sten yet defend Velanna in the same breath.

Morrigan is queen of evil companions in da ,she have no competition.And yes that true even if others try paint her otherwise.

Morrigan never does anything out and out evil in DAO. She advises you towards morally questionable- sometimes reprehensible acts out of a sense of pragmatism, but she never does anything evil. So I'm not inclined to label her as such just because she's a b*tch.

She isn't just bi*** she is stupid evil practically convincing you for taking stupid and cruel option what gives nothing or even bring harm on main goal for not other reason just to be cruel and kick others.Well she didn't anything evil because she was in no charge leliana or alistair didn't do anything good as well warden was in charge so he did all things good or bad companions just showed their outlook.

I don't consider Leliana to be a particularly good person, either. Better than Zeveran, but that's not saying a lot. She's a spy and assassin who considered killing and manipulating people to be a game; she never repents for what she did, just made excuses for it.

Getting off topic; Morrigan argues in favor of things that provide an immediate and obvious benefit to you while arguing against things  that aren't obviously in your interests. While, more often than not, she's wrong, hindsight's twenty twenty and she's a pessimist. 

She's an unpleasant person. That doesn't make her a villian.

[Former_Fiend]

Xilizhra wrote...

Interesting point; the reason the qunari withdrew from their first invasion was to put a stop to civilian deaths at the hands of the Exalted Marches.

How amusingly hypocritical.

The qunari don't go out of their way to cause civilian casualties. The Qun demands they waste nothing.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

After concluding a murder spree, the onus is usually on the perpetrator to see the fault of their ways. You shouldn't have to actively dote on someone that is shown to be categorically wrong in their stupid assumption in order for them to change their ways.

In an ideal world, but I'll take what I can get. No reason to condemn someone you can fix.

She was given a second chance. She screwed it up.

At some point, personal responsibility has to kick in. I would have arrested her and put her in custody if I could, but given the choice between killing her or letting her take some darkspawn out with her searching for her sister, I chose giving her a chance at redemption. She failed.

[Xilizhra]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Interesting point; the reason the qunari withdrew from their first invasion was to put a stop to civilian deaths at the hands of the Exalted Marches.

How amusingly hypocritical.

The qunari don't go out of their way to cause civilian casualties. The Qun demands they waste nothing.

Right, but they don't care about inflicting civilian casualties if they're launching their holy wars.

She was given a second chance. She screwed it up.

What are you talking about?

At some point, personal responsibility has to kick in. I would have
arrested her and put her in custody if I could, but given the choice
between killing her or letting her take some darkspawn out with her
searching for her sister, I chose giving her a chance at redemption. She
failed.

No, really, what are you talking about? She winds up saving that one village.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 03 octobre 2013 - 10:34 .

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Which is one outcome of many. In many other outcomes she continues to be a bigoted, murderous person.

Er, I think there's only one; in the others, she vanishes. And that one is if you don't recruit her.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, really, what are you talking about? She winds up saving that one village.

I didn't recruit her. You have the chance to let her live and not recruit her. She says she'll try to find her sister on her own. I thought that seemed alright.

She instead decided to start killing random humans again.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Former_Fiend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know I wasn't a fan of the morality any of the three characters. Zevran met a violent end in 2 out of 3 times for me as well. Although in fairness one was because he betrayed me.

Arguing about which of three is the most evil is largely irrelevant, because all of them are pretty bad.

I'd argue Morrigan's just as bad too but my point is you can't condemn Sten yet defend Velanna in the same breath.

Morrigan is queen of evil companions in da ,she have no competition.And yes that true even if others try paint her otherwise.

Morrigan never does anything out and out evil in DAO. She advises you towards morally questionable- sometimes reprehensible acts out of a sense of pragmatism, but she never does anything evil. So I'm not inclined to label her as such just because she's a b*tch.

She isn't just bi*** she is stupid evil practically convincing you for taking stupid and cruel option what gives nothing or even bring harm on main goal for not other reason just to be cruel and kick others.Well she didn't anything evil because she was in no charge leliana or alistair didn't do anything good as well warden was in charge so he did all things good or bad companions just showed their outlook.

I don't consider Leliana to be a particularly good person, either. Better than Zeveran, but that's not saying a lot. She's a spy and assassin who considered killing and manipulating people to be a game; she never repents for what she did, just made excuses for it.

Getting off topic; Morrigan argues in favor of things that provide an immediate and obvious benefit to you while arguing against things  that aren't obviously in your interests. While, more often than not, she's wrong, hindsight's twenty twenty and she's a pessimist. 

She's an unpleasant person. That doesn't make her a villian.

"Morrigan argues in favor of things that provide an immediate and obvious benefit to you"
Nope when sometimes she just want take easy way out like in slavers case that i doubt that killing mages in circle or elves for the hell of it what is very harming for our goal and when you want help someone even for simple benefit well she disapproves.

Well we have trope for that http://tvtropes.org/...oInLeatherPants

To be honest if she wasn't in our team most peoples who defend her now would scream how bad she is.

about leliana if we take that leliana from first game and assume that she isn't spying than well leliana is one of most moral companions she have bad past but she actively convincing you to help others .

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 03 octobre 2013 - 10:50 .

[Xilizhra]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, really, what are you talking about? She winds up saving that one village.

I didn't recruit her. You have the chance to let her live and not recruit her. She says she'll try to find her sister on her own. I thought that seemed alright.

She instead decided to start killing random humans again.

So... you let a confirmed murderer just wander off unsupervised? Really, I'm more surprised by your decision than anything else.

[Former_Fiend]

Xilizhra wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Interesting point; the reason the qunari withdrew from their first invasion was to put a stop to civilian deaths at the hands of the Exalted Marches.

How amusingly hypocritical.

The qunari don't go out of their way to cause civilian casualties. The Qun demands they waste nothing.

Right, but they don't care about inflicting civilian casualties if they're launching their holy wars.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the qunari; well, at least I'm not trying to put them on any kind of pedastal. I just don't see them as being any worse than the rest of Thedas on this issue. 

The Andrastians are every bit as expansionistic  and militant when it comes to spreading their faith, and tend to get significantly more genocidal when the people they're trying to convert resist(compared to the Qunari who are simply extremely persistant with the conversion), and the dalish are for the most part, violently isolationist.

Every society in Thedas is deeply flawed and each can, in one way or another, claim some sort of highground over the others. Condemming one while lionizing another is, in my opinion, missing the point.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, really, what are you talking about? She winds up saving that one village.

I didn't recruit her. You have the chance to let her live and not recruit her. She says she'll try to find her sister on her own. I thought that seemed alright.

She instead decided to start killing random humans again.

So... you let a confirmed murderer just wander off unsupervised? Really, I'm more surprised by your decision than anything else.

I thought she'd go into the deep roads and search for her sister. It made me regret not killing her though.

[Xilizhra]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the qunari; well, at least I'm not trying to put them on any kind of pedastal. I just don't see them as being any worse than the rest of Thedas on this issue.

The Andrastians are every bit as expansionistic and militant when it comes to spreading their faith, and tend to get significantly more genocidal when the people they're trying to convert resist(compared to the Qunari who are simply extremely persistant with the conversion), and the dalish are for the most part, violently isolationist.

Every society in Thedas is deeply flawed and each can, in one way or another, claim some sort of highground over the others. Condemming one while lionizing another is, in my opinion, missing the point.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Andrastian civilizations, but they weren't the aggressors in this war.

I thought she'd go into the deep roads and search for her sister. It made me regret not killing her though.

Just freaking bring her along. It's not like the Grey Wardens must have all of their recruits have pure white backgrounds. Going into the Deep Roads alone is a death sentence anyway.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 03 octobre 2013 - 10:56 .

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Right, but they don't care about inflicting civilian casualties if they're launching their holy wars.

Said by the person who supports the elves murdering humans to get them to leave the Dales.

You're confusing people, I suspect.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Just freaking bring her along. It's not like the Grey Wardens must have all of their recruits have pure white backgrounds.

Why? You're leading an army (might be overstating it, admittedly), not a band of madmen. She has no interest in being a warden or doing her duty.

Edit: Lets put it like this. Would you recruit Rendon Howe? Would you recruit Ser Alrik?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 03 octobre 2013 - 11:17 .

[Former_Fiend]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know I wasn't a fan of the morality any of the three characters. Zevran met a violent end in 2 out of 3 times for me as well. Although in fairness one was because he betrayed me.

Arguing about which of three is the most evil is largely irrelevant, because all of them are pretty bad.

I'd argue Morrigan's just as bad too but my point is you can't condemn Sten yet defend Velanna in the same breath.

Morrigan is queen of evil companions in da ,she have no competition.And yes that true even if others try paint her otherwise.

Morrigan never does anything out and out evil in DAO. She advises you towards morally questionable- sometimes reprehensible acts out of a sense of pragmatism, but she never does anything evil. So I'm not inclined to label her as such just because she's a b*tch.

She isn't just bi*** she is stupid evil practically convincing you for taking stupid and cruel option what gives nothing or even bring harm on main goal for not other reason just to be cruel and kick others.Well she didn't anything evil because she was in no charge leliana or alistair didn't do anything good as well warden was in charge so he did all things good or bad companions just showed their outlook.

I don't consider Leliana to be a particularly good person, either. Better than Zeveran, but that's not saying a lot. She's a spy and assassin who considered killing and manipulating people to be a game; she never repents for what she did, just made excuses for it.

Getting off topic; Morrigan argues in favor of things that provide an immediate and obvious benefit to you while arguing against things  that aren't obviously in your interests. While, more often than not, she's wrong, hindsight's twenty twenty and she's a pessimist. 

She's an unpleasant person. That doesn't make her a villian.

"Morrigan argues in favor of things that provide an immediate and obvious benefit to you"
Nope when sometimes she just want take easy way out like in slavers case that i doubt that killing mages in circle or elves for the hell of it what is very harming for our goal and when you want help someone even for simple benefit well she disapproves.

Well we have trope for that http://tvtropes.org/...oInLeatherPants

To be honest if she wasn't in our team most peoples who defend her now would scream how bad she is.

about leliana if we take that leliana from first game and assume that she isn't spying than well leliana is one of most moral companions she have bad past but she actively convincing you to help others .

The incident with the slavers was of immediate benefit to you, by appearances. It got you the evidence you'd need against Loghain and increase your own power. 

It's not a good or moral thing by any stretch of the imagination. But being a warden isn't about being good. It's about doing whatever it takes. 

Ultimately my problem with that option is that the actual boost the blood magic ritual  gives you is so utterly insignificant. I think Bioware really dropped the ball on that particular delima. 

And I don't consider Morrigan a draco in leather pants. I've straight up said that I don't think she's a good person(doesn't stop me from liking her; most of my favorite characters from fiction are horrible people). But so long as we have actual murderers- Sten, Zeveran, Leliana, Velanna, Anders, Fenris, Isabela- on our team, I can't consider Morrigan to be anywhere near the top contender for the "most evil" party member.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I forgot how you think your opinion is indisputable fact. Excuse me for that. Your opinion aside, I think racial options should matter.

I never said it was fact. I offered a belief coupled with a justification. I think racial options should matter. I just also think they won't matter, because Bioware's never designed a game like that. Sure, Bioware could turn around and design something different this time. It's possible. But since there's no evidence for it, I think it's fair to temper expectations in-line with past performance and past offerings.

I've said that the options behind the Dalish, Dwarf, Kossith, and the variants of being a mage should matter, but I didn't presume to make any claims about how Bioware would actually implement this.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I promote protection against mass killings of men, women, and children in purges.

Read this sentence over. You openly admit to promoting purges!. What do you promote when those people refuse to leave? What do you promote when they use force to protect the homes and land that you're actively taking from them?

Kill them all, isn't that right?

I've made it explicitly clear, time and again, that I don't endorse killing civilians living in the kingdom of the Dales, even from an in-character perspective. I've postulated that the Inquisition could be utilized to try to prevent physical harm to the civilians leaving an independent elven kingdom, both human and elven alike.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Against templars hunting the Dalish clans. Against religious persecution. When the elves are subjugated and persecuted all over the continent, a homeland could give them sanctuary. A homeland could give the elves all that, and do much more.

Genocide isn't justified. Ever. Forced relocation isn't justified. Ever. Purges and ethnic cleansing are justified. Ever.

My suggestion of relocating humans out of an independent Dales would be no different than the Dalish Boon, where the Hinterlands (up to and including the ruins of Ostagar) are given to the Dalish, with the ruler explicitly stating that the land is theirs to do with as they wish. The Hinterlands are no longer human lands; it's land now belonging to the Dalish (in the post-Dalish Boon scenario), but the clear exception that I'd support a (hypothetical, at the moment) elven rebellion (due to the rumored elven rebellion in Halamshiral).

Frankly, relocating humans out of an independent Dales would be a preventative measure to keep the elven populace safe from harm considering the hostilities that inherently exist between Andrastian culture and cultures that don't adhere to worship of the Maker, or capitulation to the Chantry of Andraste. Humans control virtually all of the known territories in Thedas, with the exception of the Qunari territories (the island nations of Par Vollen and Seheron).

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, the People refers to the Dalish.

The city elves don't count as elves, right? 

I don't see where I said that; I was pointing out that my usage of it was in reference to the Dalish. I was using the term in line with Merrill's usage of 'the People' to prefer to the Dalish, without any intention of trying to denigrate the elves living outside the nomadic Dalish communities.

[Former_Fiend]

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the qunari; well, at least I'm not trying to put them on any kind of pedastal. I just don't see them as being any worse than the rest of Thedas on this issue.

The Andrastians are every bit as expansionistic and militant when it comes to spreading their faith, and tend to get significantly more genocidal when the people they're trying to convert resist(compared to the Qunari who are simply extremely persistant with the conversion), and the dalish are for the most part, violently isolationist.

Every society in Thedas is deeply flawed and each can, in one way or another, claim some sort of highground over the others. Condemming one while lionizing another is, in my opinion, missing the point.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Andrastian civilizations, but they weren't the aggressors in this war.

"He started it!" isn't really a valid defense off the playground.

Now, I do count the Qunari's aggressive militant tendancies against them, one of those flaws I mentioned earlier, but once qunari expansion was halted there was no real reason to continue fighting, and yet the andrastians persisted. And in the end it was a pointless exorcise in that the people they "liberated" from the Qun were perfectly happy under it and ended up being slaughtered for refusing to convert back to the Cantry.

The Qunari started the war, but no one came out of it with clean hands.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Former_Fiend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know I wasn't a fan of the morality any of the three characters. Zevran met a violent end in 2 out of 3 times for me as well. Although in fairness one was because he betrayed me.

Arguing about which of three is the most evil is largely irrelevant, because all of them are pretty bad.

I'd argue Morrigan's just as bad too but my point is you can't condemn Sten yet defend Velanna in the same breath.

Morrigan is queen of evil companions in da ,she have no competition.And yes that true even if others try paint her otherwise.

Morrigan never does anything out and out evil in DAO. She advises you towards morally questionable- sometimes reprehensible acts out of a sense of pragmatism, but she never does anything evil. So I'm not inclined to label her as such just because she's a b*tch.

She isn't just bi*** she is stupid evil practically convincing you for taking stupid and cruel option what gives nothing or even bring harm on main goal for not other reason just to be cruel and kick others.Well she didn't anything evil because she was in no charge leliana or alistair didn't do anything good as well warden was in charge so he did all things good or bad companions just showed their outlook.

I don't consider Leliana to be a particularly good person, either. Better than Zeveran, but that's not saying a lot. She's a spy and assassin who considered killing and manipulating people to be a game; she never repents for what she did, just made excuses for it.

Getting off topic; Morrigan argues in favor of things that provide an immediate and obvious benefit to you while arguing against things  that aren't obviously in your interests. While, more often than not, she's wrong, hindsight's twenty twenty and she's a pessimist. 

She's an unpleasant person. That doesn't make her a villian.

"Morrigan argues in favor of things that provide an immediate and obvious benefit to you"
Nope when sometimes she just want take easy way out like in slavers case that i doubt that killing mages in circle or elves for the hell of it what is very harming for our goal and when you want help someone even for simple benefit well she disapproves.

Well we have trope for that http://tvtropes.org/...oInLeatherPants

To be honest if she wasn't in our team most peoples who defend her now would scream how bad she is.

about leliana if we take that leliana from first game and assume that she isn't spying than well leliana is one of most moral companions she have bad past but she actively convincing you to help others .

The incident with the slavers was of immediate benefit to you, by appearances. It got you the evidence you'd need against Loghain and increase your own power. 

It's not a good or moral thing by any stretch of the imagination. But being a warden isn't about being good. It's about doing whatever it takes. 

Ultimately my problem with that option is that the actual boost the blood magic ritual  gives you is so utterly insignificant. I think Bioware really dropped the ball on that particular delima. 

And I don't consider Morrigan a draco in leather pants. I've straight up said that I don't think she's a good person(doesn't stop me from liking her; most of my favorite characters from fiction are horrible people). But so long as we have actual murderers- Sten, Zeveran, Leliana, Velanna, Anders, Fenris, Isabela- on our team, I can't consider Morrigan to be anywhere near the top contender for the "most evil" party member.

And as i said slavers decision she supported was easy way out and i rly doubt that she cares about what being warden is so only one of few her suggestions can be associated with sorry not my problem than kill them all it will be funny.

Well if we go about murderers we have all our companions including pc and most characters in da as bad.Leliana was bad person in her past but she throwed that (until da 2) when she have psycho she is 1 of 3 companions that encourages to help others and not being pr****.  And even zevran can be convinced to end in gray area like chaotic neutral and throw his path well he is amoral still but he is more you don't hurt me i don't hurt you in da 2. as well isabela who can be convinced into more heroic person if she is rival.
Morrigan is only one party mebmber who is "kill them all" for no reason so she end as most dark companion.

[Xilizhra]

Why? You're leading an army (might be overstating it, admittedly), not a band of madmen. She has no interest in being a warden or doing her duty.

Edit: Lets put it like this. Would you recruit Rendon Howe? Would you recruit Ser Alrik?

I've recruited Loghain, Howe's primary enabler, as well as a murderous qunari and random assassin. If I thought Howe would be useful to the order somehow, I might. Similar with Alrik, though unlike Howe, who seems to be sane if evil, Alrik may make a decent case for being legitimately insane. Either way, I don't perceive Velanna as being so unstable as to pose a threat to the Grey Wardens instead of being an asset... and she turns out not to be.

Now, I do count the Qunari's aggressive militant tendancies against them, one of those flaws I mentioned earlier, but once qunari expansion was halted there was no real reason to continue fighting, and yet the andrastians persisted. And in the end it was a pointless exorcise in that the people they "liberated" from the Qun were perfectly happy under it and ended up being slaughtered for refusing to convert back to the Cantry.

Well, I'd never accuse the Andrastian nations of being too nice, and I don't think that they are clean. But just because they're not doesn't make the qunari not culpable for the whole thing.