111 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@In Exile:
I don't think it's a failing of the dialogue system. It's a failing of the paraphrase writer. You see, this problem could've been avoided if the paraphrase told me I'm going to say something pertaining to morality. Surely that's not too much to expect from a system designed to give me "the gist of it". Now if DAI's writers recognize this as a problem, there is some hope that it won't happen again, but if they're writing on the implied assumption that the connection is obvious, then we're going to see lines by NPCs created from hidden assumptions, and that could adversely affect how our Hawkes appear in DAI.

A more accurate paraphrase would have had the incidental effect of telling you (possibly) the moral content of the line. But the goal of the paraphrase - and indeed the entire personality system - wasn't to allow you to define your character by what they believed in, but rather by their specific intentions in a conversation. 

Bioware games have always been writtin from hidden assumptions. DA:O, for example, involved an assumed tone and an assumed personality (for the various origins). You can even see it in how characters in those origins describe you and the type of dialogue options you have. This is just endemic in how Bioware writes. 

[wcholcombe]

Head cannon how I hate thee. Seriously people, time has passed since you last played Hawke. He/she has had various experiences that may have changed what they believe since you played them. Yes, the decisions you made should impact them, but they haven't been a static being since the end of DA2.

Also, Hawke and your love interest didn't get married. Lots of things could have split them up, the head cannon that they would always be together is hillarious. Especially when referring to a certain female pirate who has been known to change allegiances in the past.

Seriously, with the way people are fretting about "OMG what are they going to do to my perfect pixilated character" I really hope both Hawke and the Warden are killed when the veil tears. Not out of any dislike, but more just for the reaction that some of you have.

They are a made up character who you controlled for a short time, they aren't yours anymore, let them go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aremce]

I really don't see neither the Warden nor Hawke returning physically in DA:I. BioWare are fully aware of the problems a lot of people might have with such appearances.

But if it happens, anyway, I personally am fine with it. I trust BioWare to respect the choices I made in DA:O and DA2, and everything else is up to them. In fact I would actually like to see Warden/Hawke appear just because I'm curious about how that appearance would be handled.

[Ryzaki]

Barquiel wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I am just worried that they will end like the Jedi Exile...

I'm more worried they'll end up like Revan.

I rather they just be dead than come back completely bonkers.

Being killed over and over by poorly dressed mid-level MMO raiders is definitely not a great fate either. But I always liked the Exile as a character more than Revan...I guess that's why her fate bothered me the most.

I suppose we should be glad there is no Dragon Age MMO

I resent that remark serah! I am fashionably in white gree scalene armor.

I played KOTOR 2 like once because **** those bugs. So I'm more attached to my Revan (who was female but still...)

[Ryzaki]

Eterna5 wrote...

Hawke is only on rails if you pick the same dialogue options in every interaction.

Pro RP tip: You don't have to pick the sarcastic option every time. 

Nope even if you mix it up he/she is still pretty on rails. I'm well aware you don't have to consistently pick one option all the time.

That doesn't stop the game from making your "default" personality the one you picked the most.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 octobre 2013 - 06:06 .

[Lady Niltiak]

 I keep getting this image of a silent Warden standing next to a chatty Hawke. No LI's in sight or mentioned.

Could you imagine the raging? "What happened to my Hawke's LI? Why isn't the Warden ruling Amaranthine/Ferelden? Why is my perfect warden hanging out with that loser from Kirkwall? BIOWARE RUINED MY HEADCANNON!!!!!" 

Modifié par Lady Niltiak, 02 octobre 2013 - 07:01 .

[ScarMK]

Eterna5 wrote...

Fardreamer wrote...

Yep, the game just chooses whatever personality you based most of your selections on. If you clicked sarcastic 10 times and diplomatic 9 times, he would have a sarcastic personality. But if you then picked diplomatic 2 more times, he would change to that personality.

The point is you don't have to be all sarcastic all the time. You can combine the different personalties depending on the situation. 

It doesn't matter if you're nice to mages, harsh to templars and use sarcasm as a form of coping.  Bottom line is, the game will only recognize Hawke as one of the three arch types.

[dalyeau]

Lady Niltiak wrote...

 I keep getting this image of a silent Warden standing next to a chatty Hawke. 

It'd actually be hilarious to see Hawke nagging on the Warden, who's standing there with their arms crossed and completely silent and looking at the Inquisitor like 'See the things I put up with?'

Modifié par dalyeau, 02 octobre 2013 - 07:11 .

[Ieldra]

@In Exile:
David Gaider's statement about how they write their protagonists (on this blog) counters that this effect of forcing the players to accept a protagonist's hidden traits as written by Bioware (except in ways that's obvious, like Hawke being protective of his family) is intentional, at least in the DA games. He said that of course they can't write lines that cater explicitly to every possible philosophy the player may imagine their Hawke to have, but they can and do aim to not actively exclude them. I think the DA games are mostly good in that. Were it not so, this line of Hawke to Isabela wouldn't be an exception. And - as opposed to Shepard in ME3 - it is an exception.

So, when I say that special care should be taken with Hawke and the Warden with the goal of not excluding a player's reasonable imagined traits, then I'm only saying the DA team should do what they say they aim to do. Mark Darrah's statement that they want to give the player more freedom and aren't afraid any more that players may miss content on any single playthrough goes into the same direction. Of course since Hawke and the Warden aren't protagonists any more, David Gaiders statement doesn't strictly apply to them, but I think it's a matter of respect to be as inclusive as possible.

@Lady Niltiak:
I'm perfectly capable of using my imagination to fill spaces left blank by the story, but for that the story needs to leave those blank spaces. What I wouldn't like is to be contradicted. Not seeing the Warden with their LI? No problem at all. Seeing them kiss someone else? Not so good.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 octobre 2013 - 07:19 .

[x-aizen-x]

happy_daiz wrote...

I thought it was already stated by BW that neither would be coming back. Did I dream that?

yes you did. in fact your all wrong. most of the fans want Hawke and warden in the game. just like it took them a long time to say weather or qunari would appear in the game? but eventually they said the qun would be in the game.

The only reason they haven't answered weather or not warden or hawke would be in the game is because they are trying to see can they put them in the game without messing up them up. they did the same thing with the question of weather or not we could import are worlds. when they were ask that, they would always say "I am not able to answer that right now. they know that you guys are afraid that they will mess up the characters you work so hard on. so they exploring their options.  

[Sylvianus]

Chari wrote...

What personalities? You mean Mr.Pacifist, Mr.Terrible-joker or Mr.SPARTA?
There are only three of them XD Much easier to translate than the variety of choices of DA:O

To be honest though, what's the problem? Neither WArden or Hawke will return in DA:I, mentioned at most. It'd take too mcuh risk and resources to import them, pick new VA for Warden etc etc etc

God, this so much.

I laughed so hard when the op talked about the awesome " level of RP " in DA2.  I was like, haha, funny joke... wait... Are you ****ing serious ? Haahahaaaa !


Just.. no.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 octobre 2013 - 07:37 .

[ScarMK]

x-aizen-x wrote..

yes you did. in fact your all wrong. most of the fans want Hawke and warden in the game. 

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.  Please, do prove this.

[jtav]

@Ieldra2

Indeed. I don't expect my fHawke to be with Sebastian, but she did marry him and she is a devout Andrastian. These are the things I expect the game to respect: things Hawke actually did and said, not some future I imagined. And because I'm a bit odd in my fictional piety and LI, I worry I'll get kicked in the teeth.

Modifié par jtav, 02 octobre 2013 - 07:45 .

[Ieldra]

@Sylvianus:
Roleplaying in DA2 was rather good. You often had several options above and beyond three, and may I mention that choosing one of three dominant tones is not the limit of roleplaying. You roleplay by what you actually choose to say and do as well. Hawke was more defined than the Warden, but compare your options in DA2 with the Warden's in DAO, excluding any options that are simply exposition, and you'll notice that DA2 may actually have facilitated more roleplaying.than DAO. The paraphrasing system tended to mask that, and (not only) for that I hate the paraphrasing with a passion, but if you knew what you were doing, you had a lot of freedom of expression, circumscribed as it was by the limitations of the setting.

[x-aizen-x]

ScarMK wrote...

x-aizen-x wrote..

yes you did. in fact your all wrong. most of the fans want Hawke and warden in the game. 

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.  Please, do prove this.

I don't gotta prove anything go watch an interview with this question being ask to a dev.

[ScarMK]

x-aizen-x wrote...

I don't gotta prove anything go watch an interview with this question being ask to a dev.

Then link the interview or tell me which one it is so I can hunt for it myself.  You're a fool if you think I'll spend hours hunting down the correct video to prove someone over the internet correct.

[Sylvianus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Sylvianus:
Roleplaying in DA2 was rather good. You often had several options above and beyond three, and may I mention that choosing one of three dominant tones is not the limit of roleplaying. You roleplay by what you actually choose to say and do as well. Hawke was more defined than the Warden, but compare your options in DA2 with the Warden's in DAO, excluding any options that are simply exposition, and you'll notice that DA2 may actually have facilitated more roleplaying.than DAO. The paraphrasing system tended to mask that, and (not only) for that I hate the paraphrasing with a passion, but if you knew what you were doing, you had a lot of freedom of expression, circumscribed as it was by the limitations of the setting.

The dominant tone was annoying as hell. I couldn't play what I wanted to play. Something complicated and subtle like in DAO. I chose some renegade choices at the beginning, so after, my Hawk was a jerk forever. Even when I wanted to be kind to those I cared about, It was bad because of the sentences concerned by this dominant tone, Hawk didn't behave like I wanted. You choose, but the character doesn't react exactly that way. That's useless, then. Let alone, that what Hawk said had sometimes nothing to do with the option I picked...

If you weren't renegade enough during your playthrought, you couldn' t be with Petrice. What the hell that has anything to do with the political choice I want to make ?  Nothing. Hawk must be a jerk. This isn't roleplaying as I think it should be.

And I disagree, I played DA2 several times, and it was only often three options to express what I wanted to tell.

It's better to go full renegade or paragon or joker, the character seems much LESS inconsistent.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 octobre 2013 - 08:31 .

[Lady Niltiak]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Lady Niltiak:
I'm perfectly capable of using my imagination to fill spaces left blank by the story, but for that the story needs to leave those blank spaces. What I wouldn't like is to be contradicted. Not seeing the Warden with their LI? No problem at all. Seeing them kiss someone else? Not so good.

I wasn't saying that about anyone in particular, just an obervation I've made about th BSN. Someone would enivtably be upset about the lack of an LI at the side of their Hawke or Warden, or angry that their Warden Queen/King isn't ruling the nation, or something is said that ruins the story they had in their head. (but doesn't contradict the lore)
The truth is whatever Bioware chooses to do or not do; someone's headcannon is going to be ruined, and then they'll rage all over the BSN for months. 

To be honest, I hope they leave Hawke and the Warden alone. If they don't I hope they don't pull a Revan/Exile thing lke SWTOR. Whatever they do, It'll be here for months afterward. 

@dalyeau 
:D:D

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

I always have to laugh at these kind of threads.

''Worried''.

Look, your control over the Warden ended with the conclusion of Awakenings. Your control over Hawke ended with the conclusion of DAII. You are neither of these characters, Bioware gave you control for a while, but they are still Bioware's characters and the response options Bioware chose to give them.

So they can do whatever they want with the characters. You only get to control the Inquisitor this time and influence the story through him. And I don't see what's so bad about that. I always view Player Characters as puppets, not as avatars of my own ego.

[Ieldra]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...
I always have to laugh at these kind of threads.

''Worried''.

Look, your control over the Warden ended with the conclusion of Awakenings. Your control over Hawke ended with the conclusion of DAII. You are neither of these characters, Bioware gave you control for a while, but they are still Bioware's characters and the response options Bioware chose to give them.

So they can do whatever they want with the characters. You only get to control the Inquisitor this time and influence the story through him. And I don't see what's so bad about that. I always view Player Characters as puppets, not as avatars of my own ego.

So you're saying you don't get emotionally invested in the protagonists you're playing, even if the game provides you the means to shape them physically and mentally to some degree? Is playing the games nothing more than a technical exercise to you then?
As I see it, It doesn't matter if the characters we're playing are "avatars of our ego". Whether they are or not, we feel we have created them using the tools provided to us by Bioware. Since we can shape them, they're as much our creation as Bioware's, and any attachment we might have to them doesn't simply go away just because we don't play them anymore.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2013 - 06:19 .

[Kiteslol]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...
I always have to laugh at these kind of threads.

''Worried''.

Look, your control over the Warden ended with the conclusion of Awakenings. Your control over Hawke ended with the conclusion of DAII. You are neither of these characters, Bioware gave you control for a while, but they are still Bioware's characters and the response options Bioware chose to give them.

So they can do whatever they want with the characters. You only get to control the Inquisitor this time and influence the story through him. And I don't see what's so bad about that. I always view Player Characters as puppets, not as avatars of my own ego.

So you're saying you don't get emotionally invested in the protagonists you're playing, even if the game provides you the means to shape them physically and mentally to some degree? Is playing the games nothing more than a technical exercise to you then?
As I see it, It doesn't matter if the characters we're playing are "avatars of our ego". Whether they are or not, we feel we have created them using the tools provided to us by Bioware. Since we can shape them, they're as much our creation as Bioware's, and any attachment we might have to them doesn't simply go away just because we don't play them anymore.

All the more reason for the cringing when the inevitable comes.

[Ieldra]

^Not sure what you're trying to say there.

[ViSeiRa]

Seems to be contradicting himself/herself...

[Deebo305]

Neither Hawker or the Warden will appear simply to avoid these certain threads from popping up. "This doesn't look like my Warden/Hawke " "This doesn't sound like my Warden/Hawke" "My Warden/Hawke wouldn't care about.."

They would appear constantly and you all know it, So does Bioware.

[esper]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...
I always have to laugh at these kind of threads.

''Worried''.

Look, your control over the Warden ended with the conclusion of Awakenings. Your control over Hawke ended with the conclusion of DAII. You are neither of these characters, Bioware gave you control for a while, but they are still Bioware's characters and the response options Bioware chose to give them.

So they can do whatever they want with the characters. You only get to control the Inquisitor this time and influence the story through him. And I don't see what's so bad about that. I always view Player Characters as puppets, not as avatars of my own ego.

So you're saying you don't get emotionally invested in the protagonists you're playing, even if the game provides you the means to shape them physically and mentally to some degree? Is playing the games nothing more than a technical exercise to you then?
As I see it, It doesn't matter if the characters we're playing are "avatars of our ego". Whether they are or not, we feel we have created them using the tools provided to us by Bioware. Since we can shape them, they're as much our creation as Bioware's, and any attachment we might have to them doesn't simply go away just because we don't play them anymore.

What I find baffling is what people expect to get out of these cameos. I Hawke in da:I does not act like my Hawke then why should I care about the imposter. It would just be some grotesque look alike that doesn't really add anything to the story since the emotional attachment I have to Hawke/warden would be gone the moment they did something wildly out of character. -> And that is the best case scenerio, the worst is that I would feel betrayed and rage at the writers for derailing characters I put a lot of work into building.

Bioware leave the personalities and moralities of the main character of da to us. And yes that includes Hawke too, mine at least was not schakled down by her dominant diplomatic. There is no way they can make an npc where the progression of all possible form characters doesn't feel illogical.

My Hawke for example was very pro the mage/templar war, and yes you can express that opinon in game so it is not just head canon and this was beside her being 'diplomatic'. My warden was very anti-warden which could also be expressed in game. It would make it very hard to logicly get them to become the same NPC as an Hawke who was neutral on the mage/templar issue and a warden who loved being a warden. It is just not doable.

So it is much, much better to simply hear the rumours of Hawke and Warden and have other people draw conclusion which may and may not be wrong.