513 réponses à ce sujet

[billy the squid]

It has to justify things in a "WTF, who the **** thought that was a good idea?" capacity. It's why chainmail bikinis are stupid and ridiculous. Anything which creates that issue is bad. That goes for at least some of the armour in DA2, notably the ingame Champion armour, the gorret being more akin to a food trough than something to protect the neck. DAO, was pushing it with the huge shoulder pads and swords which looked like one was swinging a tree trunk.

It is a medieval fantasy and certain things are expected as a result. Saying "magic" to fix everything is lazy writing and poor justification.

This is why I don't play JRPGs I detest the look, the over the top garish nature of the action and the style. But the genre is what it is, it appeal to a certain section. By placing itself in a medieval fantasy capacity, DA will be expected to deliver a certain style, the finer details are up to the dev.

Look at the pictures of the Inquisitor in Tevinter, fighting what looks to be Roman Gladiators. The armour is not what you'd expect of a soldier, but of a gladiator, which was stylised. Cassandra, the Inquisitor looks more grounded. Opportunities are likely to be available for the Qunari, given the Turkish influence, which generated lighter less heavy armour, throw in the Qunari's physical strength, natural toughness and the tropical climate of Par Vollen, less armour or lighter armour is justifiable.

Although that doesn't mean they should be running around in bondages straps and shoulder plates.

[Han Shot First]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

This:





this...






and this....






all look better than this....

IN YOUR OPINION...Me I prefer the latter.

You have poor taste.

[crimzontearz]

So the difference is that you assume there is an explanation that is not given to you by the writer while I require it being given to me to be willing to suspend my disbelief...well then that's good for me.

Also the word that should be used is Preternatural

Also, since that is your stance on jack's attire I feel it is safe to assume you are not ok with chainmail bikinis?

[crimzontearz]

MakutaDax wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Yes... realistic armour please. Boring old plate mail, maybe add some chain.

Colour? Ye gods! Do you know how expensive dye is?!

you mean like this?

And that is what I do not want happening to DA. I don't like that armor, it's not enough "fantasy" for me. Also, I've never liked The Witcher, so using an image of his armor as though DA should be emulating it...? I like DA's past armor scheme and I don't want it to adopt the Witcher's, thank you.

I enjoy diversity, real diversity. Realistic armor, along the lines this thread is suggesting, just wouldn't offer the kind of diversity I like. Instead of trying to make all armor "realistic" plate with no color or decoration, I would suggest making an armor set or two that fits this description to give players like yourself the chance to wear something more to your personal taste. And given what they've said about Inquisition's crafting system, you should be able to upgrade that armor and wear it for as long as you want. That way you get what you want and I get what I want; compromise is a lovely thing. :happy:

wait because it is brown and gray???


 
So, leaving alone the dislike for the Witcher if that same armor design was bright silver on the chainmail and blood red on the leather it would be ok for you?

[Plaintiff]

crimzontearz wrote...

So the difference is that you assume there is an explanation that is not given to you by the writer while I require it being given to me to be willing to suspend my disbelief...well then that's good for me.

Also the word that should be used is Preternatural

Actually, the word that should be used is just 'natural', at least within the context of Thedas, where dragons are a natural occurence.

Also, since that is your stance on jack's attire I feel it is safe to assume you are not ok with chainmail bikinis?

I don't really like chainmail bikinis, but that's because they're potentially demeaning to women. I don't really care if they're 'practical'.

[CaptainBlackGold]

Plaintiff wrote...

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

SNIPPED

Works for me... and I get to enjoy whatever "eye candy" armors I want.

All they actually have to do is nothing at all. Fantasy authors do not and should not have to say "this world is different from the real world and here's why", because that's immediatly apparent, not to mention, the entire point of the genre. Their universe is the way it is, and it doesn't need justification anymore than our real universe does.

In any case, I wouldn't accept such a flimsy in-world justification because the problems I have with skimpy armor on women have nothing to do with "realism". There are plenty of other reasons why the trope is bad and shouldn't be used.

You could hypothetically write a fantasy story that attempts to 'justify' rape by saying "literally every single women is a friendzoning cow and if the men didn't commit rape the human race would literally go extinct". But just because you can come up with an in-world justification for it doesn't mean you should do it.

Sorry, but I disagree. If a fantasy universe works differently than our own, then the writer must in some way, tell the reader/player how it differs otherwise it breaks verisimilitude. It can be done subtly (as I attempted to do) by simply describing the world from a character's perspective so that the reader/player understands certain dynamics or it can be done baldly which may break immersion.

You say that "skimpy armor" is a bad trope and "shouldn't be used" and you have a right to your personal opinion - but that hardly adds anything to the discussion, other than stating your preferences. Last I checked, you were not the Master of the Universe and therefore your personal opinion does not merit words such as "bad" or "shouldn't." Maybe you have other reasons that stand outside of your personal preferences, but since we cannot read your mind, you will have to elaborate.

And finally, the whole "rape" issue - I can imagine a legitimate fantasy world where rape was a normal part of human interaction. If the author wrote about it in a gratuitous, prurient way I think most of us would agree that it was nothing other than porn and therefore of little value. However, if the author wanted to explore certain aspects of human culture, and had his characters grow through the experience, it might actually be something worth reading. Again, with your example you use the word "should" - but offer no reasons why it should or should not be done.

Bringing this back to DA, since the game wants to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, and since the player will spend many hours inside their world, it behooves them to create a setting that people like. Since people like different things, in so far as possible, they try to provide as many options as possible, including weapon and armor styles. In order to maintain verisimilitude, all they have to do is offer some sort of comment, codex or the like why that super-sized sword would actually be usable, or why mid-riff bearing armor would still be protective.

Of course, they can just say, "verisimilitude be dammed..." (referring to the "damme" a small, worthless coin) and ignore explanations and do whatever they want. It certainly is easier, but it also makes one take the game less seriously.

[crimzontearz]

Plaintiff wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

So the difference is that you assume there is an explanation that is not given to you by the writer while I require it being given to me to be willing to suspend my disbelief...well then that's good for me.

Also the word that should be used is Preternatural

Actually, the word that should be used is just 'natural', at least within the context of Thedas, where dragons are a natural occurence.

Also, since that is your stance on jack's attire I feel it is safe to assume you are not ok with chainmail bikinis?

I don't really like chainmail bikinis, but that's because they're potentially demeaning to women. I don't really care if they're 'practical'.

given your stance on what explanations are required to suspend disbelief then yes. Given mine, they are a natural accourrence that apparently exists outside nature (dragons should technically be unable to fly) but that are assumed to have a rational explanation (well rational given the premise of the fiction)


 

 
That said, don't you feel that, for instance, it is ridiculous for Jack or a chainmail bikini clad heroine to sustain the same amount of damage as someone wearing full-proper looking armor (even if I am aware that is an abstract rationalization)?

[billy the squid]

MakutaDax wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Yes... realistic armour please. Boring old plate mail, maybe add some chain.

Colour? Ye gods! Do you know how expensive dye is?!

you mean like this?

And that is what I do not want happening to DA. I don't like that armor, it's not enough "fantasy" for me. Also, I've never liked The Witcher, so using an image of his armor as though DA should be emulating it...? I like DA's past armor scheme and I don't want it to adopt the Witcher's, thank you.

I enjoy diversity, real diversity. Realistic armor, along the lines this thread is suggesting, just wouldn't offer the kind of diversity I like. Instead of trying to make all armor "realistic" plate with no color or decoration, I would suggest making an armor set or two that fits this description to give players like yourself the chance to wear something more to your personal taste. And given what they've said about Inquisition's crafting system, you should be able to upgrade that armor and wear it for as long as you want. That way you get what you want and I get what I want; compromise is a lovely thing. :happy:

Because realism requires grey and brown? This isn't faux Gears of War where everything looks like it's covered in dog crap and someone emptied the content of a vaccum cleaner over the top. Realistic depictions do not relegate concept art to the realms of drudgery. The only thing that realism requires is not to make the depiction utterly ridiculous.


Good, examples of what is realistic without being dredged in shades of brown and grey.

Modifié par billy the squid, 03 octobre 2013 - 03:10 .

[Dutchess]

billy the squid wrote...


Although that doesn't mean they should be running around in bondages straps and shoulder plates.

Why not?

[crimzontearz]

renjility wrote...

billy the squid wrote...


Although that doesn't mean they should be running around in bondages straps and shoulder plates.

Why not?

those are gladiators...not soldiers

[Dutchess]

crimzontearz wrote...

renjility wrote...

billy the squid wrote...


Although that doesn't mean they should be running around in bondages straps and shoulder plates.

Why not?

*snip*

those are gladiators...not soldiers

They ended up fighting an entire army of Romans in basically the same outfits.

[billy the squid]

renjility wrote...

billy the squid wrote...


Although that doesn't mean they should be running around in bondages straps and shoulder plates.

Why not?

Gladiators. As I actually mentioned in the picture we saw of the Inquisitor in Tevinter. They weren't soldiers, soldiers don't always fight one on one in the press of the battlefield, with arrows whistling overhead, and cavalry charges or a glancing blow comming in from behind.

Although we could always go the 300 route for sheer silliness.

Muffin out your chests men, and strap on your bannana hamocks. CHARGE!

Modifié par billy the squid, 03 octobre 2013 - 03:20 .

[Plaintiff]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...
Sorry, but I disagree. If a fantasy universe works differently than our own, then the writer must in some way, tell the reader/player how it differs otherwise it breaks verisimilitude. It can be done subtly (as I attempted to do) by simply describing the world from a character's perspective so that the reader/player understands certain dynamics or it can be done baldly which may break immersion.

The story tells the reader "how" by simply showing it in the story. If you show a person shooting fire from their hands, then the logical conclusion is that this is a universe in which such a thing is possible.

It only breaks verisimilitude if you approach the story from the assumption that its processes are underpinned by Earth logic. But when you try to explain your fantasy universe within an Earth context, you immediatly run into problems. There will always be things you haven't thought of, and you'll just create more inconsistencies.

For instance, you used Earth logic to justify your characters' mode of dress. But actually, on Earth, typical 'practical' attire in a hot climate is long, loose, free-flowing clothing, with light colours to reflect light and dissipate heat. Not tight bikinis/briefs that expose your skin to the elements. Even regular underpants would still give you the chafing and crotch-rot issues you said your fictional people are trying to avoid. No underpants at all would be better.

Verisimilitude doesn't come from how similar your fake world is to our real one. It comes from how consistent your fake world is within itself. It doesn't matter if the sea is custard, the landmasses are marshmallow and the people are sock puppets. You can make up whatever rules you like for your own universe, as long as you keep them consistent.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 octobre 2013 - 03:31 .

[CaptainBlackGold]

crimzontearz wrote...

renjility wrote...

billy the squid wrote...


Although that doesn't mean they should be running around in bondages straps and shoulder plates.

Why not?

Picture Snipped

those are gladiators...not soldiers

And of course, from one perspective you are correct. Gladiators did not normally wear armor because the whole point was to show their gruesome deaths in the arena.

However, from another perspective, plenty of warriors went into battle wearing even less than the snipped picture above - the Celts and Germans sometimes went naked, just to show how contemptuous they were of their enemies. "Realistically" armor was expensive and only the landed gentry could afford it. Hot climates had "armor" made out of linen - which was one of the reasons why the Persians paid such a high price facing the Spartans.

So the "realism" argument wears a bit thin. Can we not agree that in "reality" it all boils down to personal tastes? I mean, I find the very idea of the average woman, wearing 90 pounds of plate armor and going toe-to toe with a 6' tall male "unrealistic." But we suspend our disbelief because it suits our personal taste to have women warriors in our fantasy games.

[Dutchess]

billy the squid wrote...

Gladiators. As I actually mentioned in the picture we saw of the Inquisitor in Tevinter. They weren't soldiers, soldiers don't always fight one on one in the press of the battlefield, with arrows whistling overhead, and cavalry charges or a glancing blow comming in from behind.

Well, as I said, they did not dress up a lot more in the later seasons when they had to fight Roman legions.

Although we could always go the 300 route for sheer silliness.

Muffin out your chests men, and strap on your bannana hamocks. CHARGE!

I think I would actually forgive Bioware for lack of realism if they did this. Bring it on!

[crimzontearz]

renjility wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

renjility wrote...

billy the squid wrote...


Although that doesn't mean they should be running around in bondages straps and shoulder plates.

Why not?

*snip*

those are gladiators...not soldiers

They ended up fighting an entire army of Romans in basically the same outfits.

 
And they were crucified on the Via Appia

You will not see me having much simpathy for them, you know, SPQR....Civis Romanus Sum and all that jazz

[Plaintiff]

crimzontearz wrote...
And they were crucified on the Via Appia

You will not see me having much simpathy for them, you know, SPQR....Civis Romanus Sum and all that jazz

You criticise them for dressing unrealisitically/impractically for their fight against roman soldiers, but gladiators are basically slaves, and wouldn't have the means to acquire that kind of gear, even after escaping.

[Plaintiff]

crimzontearz wrote...
That said, don't you feel that, for instance, it is ridiculous for Jack or a chainmail bikini clad heroine to sustain the same amount of damage as someone wearing full-proper looking armor (even if I am aware that is an abstract rationalization)?

I take it on a case by case basis.

[CaptainBlackGold]

Plaintiff wrote...

CaptainBlackGold wrote...
SNIPPED

The story tells the reader "how" by simply showing it in the story. If you show a person shooting fire from their hands, then the logical conclusion is that this is a universe in which such a thing is possible.

It only breaks verisimilitude if you approach the story from the assumption that its processes are underpinned by Earth logic. But when you try to explain your fantasy universe within an Earth context, you immediatly run into problems. There will always be things you haven't thought of, and you'll just create more inconsistencies.

For instance, you used Earth logic to justify your characters' mode of dress. But actually, on Earth, typical 'practical' attire in a hot climate is long, loose, free-flowing clothing, with light colours to reflect light and dissipate heat. Not tight bikinis/briefs that expose your skin to the elements. Even regular underpants would still give you the chafing and crotch-rot issues you said your fictional people are trying to avoid. No underpants at all would be better.

Verisimilitude doesn't come from how similar your fake world is to our real one. It comes from how consistent your fake world is within itself. It doesn't matter if the sea is custard, the landmasses are marshmallow and the people are sock puppets. You can make up whatever rules you like for your own universe, as long as you keep them consistent.

Yes, no and maybe... The yes is that consistency within the rules of the world are fundamental - no argument there. Working out those inner consistencies before you begin your narrative is vital to a world that has verisimilitude. "Bad' writing often happens when the author's "Awesome Button" outruns his own description of those consistencies.

The no is in regards to "earth logic." Earth logic is the only one we have. If a fantasy universe has different rules than ours, then the reader must be informed of it somehow. Subtly it is done through the narrative and "how much" explanation depends on how close that universe is to ours and the purposes of the author. The fact of magic existing is one thing, how detailed the explanation of how it works is up to the purposes of the author.

In regards to clothing, a strong "maybe." Hot arid climates demand loose fitting garments (say the dress of Northern Africa, Saudi Arabia, etc.). Hot humid climates (say central Africa) encourage as little clothing as possible. And then there is the whole "how expensive is it to produce cloth/leather/metal armor" issue.

And I completely disagree with the marshmallow land mass and custard sea argument. While one might write a children's book with such features, no one would write anything like this for an adult audience and expect to be taken seriously UNLESS there was some in game/story explanation of why THAT world differed so dramatically from OUR world. Verisimilitude demands some sort of explanation/acknowledgment of those differences.

And the "crotch rot" issue - maybe you missed my "Jock Strap of Doom" reference - but any male engaged in serious physical activity wants a little support down there despite the potential of fungus problem. He might need to air things out between battles - but when the swords start swinging he'll want a good athletic supporter.

But going back to the main issue, enormous, spiky poltroons or as someone mentioned above, gigantic spit cups might look "awesome" to some artist playing around with various visual styles but they do break verisimilitude for anyone who knows something about how real armor looked and functioned. It will continue to annoy such people UNLESS there is some explanation, in game of why armor looks that way.

[crimzontearz]

Plaintiff wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
And they were crucified on the Via Appia

You will not see me having much simpathy for them, you know, SPQR....Civis Romanus Sum and all that jazz

You criticise them for dressing unrealisitically/impractically for their fight against roman soldiers, but gladiators are basically slaves, and wouldn't have the means to acquire that kind of gear, even after escaping.

no no


 
I am against them because Civis Romanus Sum


 
They could wear full Lorica Segmentata and I would still be on the side of the empire

[Dutchess]

crimzontearz wrote...
 
And they were crucified on the Via Appia

You will not see me having much simpathy for them, you know, SPQR....Civis Romanus Sum and all that jazz

You heartless Roman.

[crimzontearz]

renjility wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
 
And they were crucified on the Via Appia

You will not see me having much simpathy for them, you know, SPQR....Civis Romanus Sum and all that jazz

You heartless Roman.

always was and always will be


 
And so is my character from a Requiem for Rome

[DarthSideus2]

crimzontearz wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

To me we're good until we end up like TERA not fond of my heroines all looking like they belong in a fantasy porno.

Yes.... I see what you mean. (saving this for my bunk later)

Even the me aren't spared:




However...this IS Terra.
There are some real jewls in thar.

check out these incredibly functional armors:

http://www.blogcdn.c...ery24410471.png

http://i.imgur.com/9NNRM.jpg

http://tera-online.c...opori_m_h20.jpg

O.O


 

 

 
She looks........lovely

Hmm, now you've peeked my interest (Isabella, DAO). I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Isabella or Lelliana run around in that female armor once in a while. I guess the point of this thread is that some people like a more realistic look to their equipment, while probably still more people (myself included) enjoy a more "over-the-top" approach to equipment. It doesn't have to be as skimpy as this example, but I certainly wouldn't say no if some were included with the game.

The thing that gets me about this whole "realism" thing is that I see a lot of people asking for realistic looking equipment, but expecting "over-the-top" stats for their equipment. I hope that these people don't think that their ordinary armor and weapons are going to stand up against dragons, ogres, rock wraiths and the many other supernatural opponents in the DA universe without some supernatural augmentation of it's own.

So, this logically should come down to a question of aesthetics or style, as opposed to the functionality of how something looks. I hope they can include some of both, so we all can enjoy.

[crimzontearz]

Ok

I want Dark Ages Vampire levels if verisimilitude

Is that ok?


 
EDIT...scratch that...Requiem for Rome level of verisimilitude

Modifié par crimzontearz, 03 octobre 2013 - 04:14 .

[Plaintiff]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...
The no is in regards to "earth logic." Earth logic is the only one we have. If a fantasy universe has different rules than ours, then the reader must be informed of it somehow. Subtly it is done through the narrative and "how much" explanation depends on how close that universe is to ours and the purposes of the author. The fact of magic existing is one thing, how detailed the explanation of how it works is up to the purposes of the author.

Well obviously that's not true, or else we wouldn't be able to conceive of different logics in the first place.

And I completely disagree with the marshmallow land mass and custard sea argument. While one might write a children's book with such features, no one would write anything like this for an adult audience and expect to be taken seriously UNLESS there was some in game/story explanation of why THAT world differed so dramatically from OUR world. Verisimilitude demands some sort of explanation/acknowledgment of those differences.

Adults are often dumb and full of prejudices, just as much, if not more so than children, so what they take seriously isn't important. In any case, there's a whole genre known as absurdist fiction, and it's taken very seriously.

We already know for an absolute fact that there are planets in the universe that are nothing like Earth. If any life were to evolve on them, it would be completely unrecognisable to us. There could be a custard planet populated by sentient socks in our universe right now. But let's put that aside and focus on the hypothetical fictional one. Not only is an in-world explanation of the custard planet not required, but it's logically impossible to provide. Socks on a custard planet will obviously not perceive reality the same way that humans on Earth do. A sock will simply not be able to explain to another sock why their planet isn't made of rock, with a molten core. For socks, custard planets are the norm, and the mere idea of a rock planet is an absurd fantasy.

But going back to the main issue, enormous, spiky poltroons or as someone mentioned above, gigantic spit cups might look "awesome" to some artist playing around with various visual styles but they do break verisimilitude for anyone who knows something about how real armor looked and functioned. It will continue to annoy such people UNLESS there is some explanation, in game of why armor looks that way.

The explanation is that it's a different world. Knowledge of how "real armor" functions is only relevant to actual reality, or fiction that is explicitly attempting to emulate reality, which you won't find in the 'Fantasy' section.

Holding non-reality to the standards of reality is absurd. Of course armor in Thedas isn't an accurate portrayal of Earth armor. It's not Earth armor, and it's not supposed to be. It's Thedas armor. You might as well criticise an orange for not being a banana.