513 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthSideus2]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Snowflake_in_Hel wrote...

There does seem to be a trend in modern games to make armor and weapons completely unrealistic, perhaps that is because the modern gamer needs to feel "invincible"? Is that true for you?  Do you need an axe that is three times too large to feel "cool"?  Do you need a two handed sword that is taller than you are to feel "tough"?  Is it more important for you to have armor that is totally over the top, or are you the kind that has a little respect for realism? 

[casts Firestorm and reduces an entire village into smoldering ashes]

You were saying?

*Highfives*

I'll aid you with my Storm of the Century combo spell, then cast Cone of Cold so my tank can shatter the enemy with their un-remarkable but realistic looking weapon.

[bEVEsthda]

One of the huge differences between the child's mind and the adult's, is that the child is all about surface, superficial, shallow things. The adult is about content. And some adults have the knowledge, education, power of mind, to see the underlying form of things.

This means that both are not necessarily entertained by the same things. However, I have noticed that children are far more likely to like adult stuff, than adults are likely to like childish stuff.

That's one of my comments on this thread.

* * * *

On it's own, there's nothing wrong with pleasing thong-armour (other than that some will scream sexism), in a setting that is *logical* for such. I agree with some gist (a lot, actually) of Plaintiff's arguments in this thread (despite that I usually disagree vehemently with Plaintiff). The problem is that Bioware, when creating DA, did not set down some Frazetta/Vallejo/Ruis/ancient Greek society, where everybody runs around essentially naked, except for some functional leg and arm armor, helmet and shield. DA is something different. More in line with our times' dominant jewish/christian/islamic bigoted, puritanic society. It also builds on medieval - rather than ancient - art of war and technology. Those two things must be respected in the artwork of arms or armour, or people will sense something is amiss and complain.

That is not to say I wouldn't find a Fantasy game drawing from a Frazetta/Vallejo/Ruis/ancient Greek type of culture - where you could strut around nude in sexy apparel - interesting or awesome. I think it'd could be pretty cool actually, if done right. But DA is not it. At least not Thedas.

That is my second comment on this thread.

* * * *

My third comment would be essentially the argument  I made a long time ago, in a thread I created on the armour and methods of manufacture. If an artist is inspired by modern stuff, apocalyptic fantasy, comics or japanese fantasy stuff like Transformers, they might (besides introducing titanic shoulders and spikes) ignorantly copy stylistic elements which come from modern practises and infrastructure. In that case they stand out in the game as much as a diesel-train-engine running straight through Kirkwall, ...for persons like me.
Remember that the stuff is supposed to be made by a smith, not by a garage mechanic.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 04 octobre 2013 - 02:49 .

[Shadow Fox]

Transformers is American dude.

[Boycott Bioware]

Squire wrote...

Qistina wrote...

I see many peoples saying "this is fantasy!" and so armors must look ridiculous...if want 100% fantasy, there shouldn't be human in it, human is from real world...or maybe human must have 3 hands, 4 legs, two heads..."this is fantasy!", what human is that?

 Love it!!

But...yeah, this is a very common argument used in such situations. It may be fantasy, but for me, there still needs to be a level of believability. The Lord of the Rings films didn't have big pauldrons or oversized weapons (other than the Witch King's flail!!).

As for wizards...they're supposed to be a special group of a few individuals who have The Powah, and spend their whole lives learning to use it in order to break the laws of physics. If everybody can break the laws of physics, what's the point? Only wizards should be able to break the laws of physics, while fighters should work within the boundaries of the laws of physics to do awesome things.

The key is reasoning, even in fantasy we cannot throw away reasoning. Something must caused by something. If it's magic, that magic cause by something.

For example, only Mages can cast magic, because they are Mages, that is the reason, magic existed because there are someone who cast it. Where the magic come from? It can be by any reason, the Mage own power, demon, other realm like the Fade, the mage inner power, bless by God/Gods, or anything...there is reason that make it believeable. Fireball attack that make peoples knocked back, why? Because there is momentum, the "ball" explode, there is physic even behind the fireball spell.

"Magic" itself come from reasoning, it comes from "what if?", such as "what if someone can shoot lightning from his fingers?", then the brain creatively creating the situation, how the thing happen, the lightning effect, the design, the color, everything that can justfy a person can cast lightning and the physic that could happen from it .If it just, "it's magic", it destroy everything....because there is no explanation, no reasoning.

Magical fantasy and science fiction have little difference, it is all about reasoning, want to reason through magic or science, in either way both are fantasy and not real. But you can understand, can reason, and get satisfaction.

And so an armor must look like an armor and not a bikini

[bEVEsthda]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Transformers is American dude.

Not really. The name "Transformers" is american, and american interests may own most of the IP today, I don't know.
But Transformers are originally, and much underway, between, japanese creations.

They originated as Takara Tomy toy company's Diaclone and Microman toys.

[Squire]

Qistina wrote...

Magical fantasy and science fiction have little difference, it is all about reasoning, want to reason through magic or science, in either way both are fantasy and not real. But you can understand, can reason, and get satisfaction.

And so an armor must look like an armor and not a bikini

Exactly. Magic still needs to have rules, and armour needs to look like armour. Whether it's made of steel, or pig iron, or mithril, or Valerium, or Adamantium, or Unobtanium, Hardtogetium, Slightlyinconvenientium or Othersillymadeupnameium, doesn't matter, as long as people can believe it as being armour.

Frankly to me for fantasy to be realistic magic ethier can't exist,be
useable by mortals or must be incredibly difficult to use/learn thus
limting it's practicers to a very small percent of the populous and rare
to the point were common people doubt it's existance.

Pretty sure that's the case in Dragon Age - at least as far as only a small percentage of people can use it. I'm also a fan of low magic settings, and don't like games where everyone can do magic.

However, I don't think common people will ever completely doubt its existence, because people will always attribute anything they don't understand to some magical force or higher power (there are people who do this today). If there was an institution in which magic was learned, word would get around eventually, and people would have heard of it. They might not know exactly what magic can/can't do, or how it's used, or what goes on inside this institution, but they'd still be all "Oooh, something I don't understand happened...it's them witches, I tell you! Magic is EVIL!!"

That is not to say I wouldn't find a Fantasy game drawing from a
Frazetta/Vallejo/Ruis/ancient Greek type of culture - where you could
strut around nude in sexy apparel - interesting or awesome. I think it'd
could be pretty cool actually, if done right. But DA is not it. At
least not Thedas.

Then you need Runequest!! 

[Shadow Fox]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Transformers is American dude.

Not really. The name "Transformers" is american, and american interests may own most of the IP today, I don't know.
But Transformers are originally, and much underway, between, japanese creations.

They originated as Takara Tomy toy company's Diaclone and Microman toys.

Outside of the original G1 designs,The Beast Wars animes and Unicron Trilogy Transformers is American.

[draken-heart]

Vilegrim wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I didn't say realistic, believable and realistic are not the same thing

They could be based on the real life ones but altered 

Based on/looks like, Same thing.

This is what I consider believable

As long as the armor fits the setting, why should it be believable?

because it has to function as armour, you can have strange materials and odd shapings, but armour has a job, and that job requires certain things of it.

And that is what most of the armor would do in DA 2, despite the "over-the-top" look. Unless all the armors in 2 were more like the Tera armors, which they weren't , the only thing people hated for the most part was the shoulder pads being "a bit big."

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
So "It's magic!" is an acceptable excuse only when it comes to mages huh?<_

Yes. Because they are mnages. Magic is what they do.
Warriors don't do magic, hence they cna't break laws of physics.

Why do warriors tank? For the same reason mages don't go down to a single sword strike - HP. A necessary abstraction in a real-time tactical game.


Consider the following:
****************************

General Montimard gazed across the gethering. His officers stood around the wooden table and the map, ready to recive final orders. Montimardwas a legend -  the invincible strategist they called him - never has he lost a battle.

His aide, Horst pointed on the map:

H: "We estimate the enemy having around 10000 soldiers. Their main force consist of archers spread over the hill, with a front line of heavy infantry."

M: "Have our light infantry ready for the change. Tell them to leave their shields and armor if necessary. Speed will be important. They must have energy left after the charge."

The officers gasped in astonishment at such a brilliant strategy! The enemy heavy infantry will never be able to stop such a frontal assault.

M: "What of their left flank?"

H: "Spearman. Arranged in a phalax and dug in."

M: "Move all of our cavalry to that flank. They shall circle around, pass trough this minefield and charge them head on!"

H: "What about our right flank?"

M: "The archers will destroy whatever comes. They need no backup."

Another commotion as the officers as they marveled at the strategy involed. In the next instant, sevral arrows flew by.

M: "Enemy warrning volley no doubt."

H: "Sir... I've been hit" Horst was gasping, a large arrow in his chest.

M: "Worry not my firend, I shall heal you with my healing shiv." Without a word he stabbed Horst in the heart. The man guirgled and fell down, not moving. Montimared gestured to the medics to take it from here and directed his gaze back at the map.

"Tactical genius" he quitely whispered.

*****************************************

You know why this above is great? Because fantasy.
And if you ever figure out why a scene like this would bother you in a serious fantasy book, then you will also know why silly armor bothers some people.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 octobre 2013 - 04:56 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Lightsaber is a fantasy weapon, but believable and the most interesting one.

For a long time i thought the blade is the Jedi/Sith inner power that is why they are colorful, until i read a book about Star Wars universe that show the construction of Lightsaber. It means my mind find a reason when i was a kid on why the Lightsaber have many colors, the laser blade only half way and so on...i justify it by assume it is the Jedi/Sith power. But still even i am wrong, the Lightsaber is justified by it's lore, there is mechanic behind it, crystals, energy reactor, wiring and so on...

See that? There is no laser blade, it is impossible, it's fantasy, but Lightsaber is not beyond reason, it is justified with science fiction. The nature of that weapon is actually magic, the "science" behind it is bull****, but we can accept it...in our mind "i want one!"

But a giant sword Hawke is carrying around is beyond reason, there is no reason why a sword is that big, no reason why a warrior wearing heavy plate armor can jump so high, no reason behind a duelist can teleport behind target...all these are unreasonable, unbelievable and unjustified

A Jedi can jump beyond normal jump, the reason is they are Jedi, they are using the Force, mastery of the Force making them can jump beyond normal jump, but what justify a human Hawke can jump beyond normal jump in DA2?

So that is what the "i want more realistic" and "i want realism" party is arguing about

The real heaviest armor in medieval makes a Knight must use some help to mount a horse, that is believable, but if a game showing a person wearing bulkiest armor but can move like The Flash it is unacceptable, because it is beyond reason UNLESS the lore on that armor saying "this armor grant its wearer a power to move like lightning"

[Shadow Fox]

Squire wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Magical fantasy and science fiction have little difference, it is all about reasoning, want to reason through magic or science, in either way both are fantasy and not real. But you can understand, can reason, and get satisfaction.

And so an armor must look like an armor and not a bikini

Exactly. Magic still needs to have rules, and armour needs to look like armour. Whether it's made of steel, or pig iron, or mithril, or Valerium, or Adamantium, or Unobtanium, Hardtogetium, Slightlyinconvenientium or Othersillymadeupnameium, doesn't matter, as long as people can believe it as being armour.

Frankly to me for fantasy to be realistic magic ethier can't exist,be
useable by mortals or must be incredibly difficult to use/learn thus
limting it's practicers to a very small percent of the populous and rare
to the point were common people doubt it's existance.

Pretty sure that's the case in Dragon Age - at least as far as only a small percentage of people can use it. I'm also a fan of low magic settings, and don't like games where everyone can do magic.

However, I don't think common people will ever completely doubt its existence, because people will always attribute anything they don't understand to some magical force or higher power (there are people who do this today). If there was an institution in which magic was learned, word would get around eventually, and people would have heard of it. They might not know exactly what magic can/can't do, or how it's used, or what goes on inside this institution, but they'd still be all "Oooh, something I don't understand happened...it's them witches, I tell you! Magic is EVIL!!"

That is not to say I wouldn't find a Fantasy game drawing from a
Frazetta/Vallejo/Ruis/ancient Greek type of culture - where you could
strut around nude in sexy apparel - interesting or awesome. I think it'd
could be pretty cool actually, if done right. But DA is not it. At
least not Thedas.

Then you need Runequest!! 

Basically all I want from armor is some stuff like WOW's,GW2's and Amalur's


Actually it's fairly common and more like the X-Gene from Marvel in how it functions I'd prefer it be more like Dragon Shouts. Not small enough for me I 'm talking like Greybeard or Elder Council small.

[draken-heart]

Qistina wrote...

Lightsaber is a fantasy weapon, but believable and the most interesting one.

For a long time i thought the blade is the Jedi/Sith inner power that is why they are colorful, until i read a book about Star Wars universe that show the construction of Lightsaber. It means my mind find a reason when i was a kid on why the Lightsaber have many colors, the laser blade only half way and so on...i justify it by assume it is the Jedi/Sith power. But still even i am wrong, the Lightsaber is justified by it's lore, there is mechanic behind it, crystals, energy reactor, wiring and so on...

See that? There is no laser blade, it is impossible, it's fantasy, but Lightsaber is not beyond reason, it is justified with science fiction. The nature of that weapon is actually magic, the "science" behind it is bull****, but we can accept it...in our mind "i want one!"

But a giant sword Hawke is carrying around is beyond reason, there is no reason why a sword is that big, no reason why a warrior wearing heavy plate armor can jump so high, no reason behind a duelist can teleport behind target...all these are unreasonable, unbelievable and unjustified

A Jedi can jump beyond normal jump, the reason is they are Jedi, they are using the Force, mastery of the Force making them can jump beyond normal jump, but what justify a human Hawke can jump beyond normal jump in DA2?

So that is what the "i want more realistic" and "i want realism" party is arguing about

The real heaviest armor in medieval makes a Knight must use some help to mount a horse, that is believable, but if a game showing a person wearing bulkiest armor but can move like The Flash it is unacceptable, because it is beyond reason UNLESS the lore on that armor saying "this armor grant its wearer a power to move like lightning"

Most of the plate armors (Real life) would be spread over the body, so it shares the weight, and it is not just on one body part.

I assumed that is why hawke was able to move fast.

[Boycott Bioware]

draken-heart wrote...
Most of the plate armors (Real life) would be spread over the body, so it shares the weight, and it is not just on one body part.

I assumed that is why hawke was able to move fast.

I have seen documentaries and read books about western armors, some even have to use a rope and pull it, the knight hanging in the air then get on the horse...no need to justify the unjustified

Modifié par Qistina, 04 octobre 2013 - 05:04 .

[Shadow Fox]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
So "It's magic!" is an acceptable excuse only when it comes to mages huh?<_

Yes. Because they are mnages. Magic is what they do.
Warriors don't do magic, hence they cna't break laws of physics.

Why do warriors tank? For the same reason mages don't go down to a single sword strike - HP. A necessary abstraction in a real-time tactical game.


Consider the following:
****************************

General Montimard gazed across the gethering. His officers stood around the wooden table and the map, ready to recive final orders. Montimardwas a legend -  the invincible strategist they called him - never has he lost a battle.

His aide, Horst pointed on the map:

H: "We estimate the enemy having around 10000 soldiers. Their main force consist of archers spread over the hill, with a front line of heavy infantry."

M: "Have our light infantry ready for the change. Tell them to leave their shields and armor if necessary. Speed will be important. They must have energy left after the charge."

The officers gasped in astonishment at such a brilliant strategy! The enemy heavy infantry will never be able to stop such a frontal assault.

M: "What of their left flank?"

H: "Spearman. Arranged in a phalax and dug in."

M: "Move all of our cavalry to that flank. They shall circle around, pass trough this minefield and charge them head on!"

H: "What about our right flank?"

M: "The archers will destroy whatever comes. They need no backup."

Another commotion as the officers as they marveled at the strategy involed. In the next instant, sevral arrows flew by.

M: "Enemy warrning volley no doubt."

H: "Sir... I've been hit" Horst was gasping, a large arrow in his chest.

M: "Worry not my firend, I shall heal you with my healing shiv." Without a word he stabbed Horst in the heart. The man guirgled and fell down, not moving. Montimared gestured to the medics to take it from here and directed his gaze back at the map.

"Tactical genius" he quitely whispered.

*****************************************

You know why this above is great? Because fantasy.
And if you ever figure out why a scene like this would bother you in a serious fantasy book, then you will also know why silly armor bothers some people.

Mages aren't necessary for Fantasy bro.

Congrats you just described Healing magic.

Mages bother me more when it comes to realism then "silly armor" because realistically a mundane can't beat a mage in combat ever and living creatures can't just create fire,ice and lightning and use it at will or heal people just by channeling energy or curse people but I can almost guarentee if I made a thread asking for thier removal to appeal to my sense of realism you'd just say "It's magic It doesn't have to make sense deal with it".

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 04 octobre 2013 - 05:15 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Qistina wrote...
The real heaviest armor in medieval makes a Knight must use some help to mount a horse, that is believable"

No, those were jousting armors, not field plates.

Jousting armors were for jousting ONLY. Not intended for battle.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I want an even mix of both, so that designs don't look just bland and or overused and copied from other games, but are still respectable to use.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Mages aren't necessary for Fantasy bro.

Never said they were.
I said HP was a necessary abstraction for a real-time party-based tactical game.

Congrats you just described Healing magic.

I wasn't aware healing works by killing people first.

Mages bother me more when it comes to realism then "silly armor" because realistically a mundane can't beat a mage in combat ever and living creatures can't just create fire,ice and lightning and use it at will or heal people just by channeling energy or curse people but I can almost guarentee if I made a thread asking for thier removal to appeal to my sense of realism you'd just say "It's magic It doesn't have to make sense deal with it".

Magic isn't necessary for fantasy, but just becuase you have magic, doesn't mean everything is magical.


In the above example, no matter how much the game/story tries to tell me that the general is a tactical genius, if the tactics he uses are garbage, even someone with a rudimentary military knowledge will call BS.

If someone is called logical, but makes extreemly illogical deduction, no amountof "but it's fantasy" will help.

To put it simply - armor has a function. Everything has a purpose.
And it has to look the part.


Fantasy cannot override common sense if the setting wants me totake it seriously.

[Gebert]

Yay for more plausible looking equipment.

Also, www.youtube.com/watch. Quite interesting, IMHO.

Modifié par Gebert, 04 octobre 2013 - 05:46 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Besides, it's not as if having more realistic weapons means the ridiculousness and over the topness can't happen.



It's all about application, and not making obviously heavy and or borderline insane styles look easy as pie.

[Vilegrim]

Qistina wrote...


The real heaviest armor in medieval makes a Knight must use some help to mount a horse, that is believable, but if a game showing a person wearing bulkiest armor but can move like The Flash it is unacceptable, because it is beyond reason UNLESS the lore on that armor saying "this armor grant its wearer a power to move like lightning"

no, they didn't, that is victorian propoganda.  The heaviest armour was about the same weight as a modern soldiers combat load, for exactly the same reasons.


No armor ever required a winch.

Here, you can do press ups in full plate harness as demonstrated :

Modifié par Vilegrim, 04 octobre 2013 - 06:24 .

[frankf43]

Snowflake_in_Hel wrote...

There does seem to be a trend in modern games to make armor and weapons completely unrealistic, perhaps that is because the modern gamer needs to feel "invincible"? Is that true for you?  Do you need an axe that is three times too large to feel "cool"?  Do you need a two handed sword that is taller than you are to feel "tough"?  Is it more important for you to have armor that is totally over the top, or are you the kind that has a little respect for realism? 

Perhaps realism is just something that falls by the wayside where RPG games are concerned.

I am curious, just wondering.

 

Wassail.  
Snjarulfr.
werwulf.




 

I want daggers or a dagger and a  rapier rather than something that looks like you would topple over backwards if you lift it over your head. 

[Swoopdogg]

I do enjoy realism, but I also like the over-the-top action. I prefer realistic-looking armor that is still visually appealing. I hate the massive, tank-like amror that most of the high-level stuff is. It's just... ugly, really.

But the over-the-top action can stay, IMO. It's what makes the combat fun.

[draken-heart]

Qistina wrote...

draken-heart wrote...
Most of the plate armors (Real life) would be spread over the body, so it shares the weight, and it is not just on one body part.

I assumed that is why hawke was able to move fast.

I have seen documentaries and read books about western armors, some even have to use a rope and pull it, the knight hanging in the air then get on the horse...no need to justify the unjustified

In the end, Armor look is not important. They (the development team) make it how they make it, and it should not impact how much one can believe the setting, as story and character development are more important than "do these shoulder pads look goofy on this outfit?" complaints.

If the story and characters are badly done, then there is no way armor makes up for it. All this thread is about is complaining about something so low on the totem pole, it should not read a blip on anyone's radar.

Modifié par draken-heart, 04 octobre 2013 - 06:33 .

[Squire]

draken-heart wrote...

...the only thing people hated for the most part was the shoulder pads being "a bit big."

The vambraces too...but yeah, the pauldrons were the main thing. Medieval armour was never modelled on American Football kit (which, btw, isn't made out of steel and isn't designed to resist being cut into a lot)

The real heaviest armor in medieval makes a Knight must use some help to mount a horse, that is believable...

That's jousting armour. It was made like that because it didn't have to be light and mobile, just strong enough to take a hit from a lance. A proper combat harness would be much lighter - this image of knights barely able to walk, and being unable to get up if they fall over, is a myth. I know several people who own a gothic harness, and they can move around surprisingly well in it. They can get up if they're knocked down, and they can even mount horses without help.

Comparing jousting armour to armour used in a battle is a bit like taking an Olympic athelete's kit and saying "Look, this is what soldiers wore when they went to war!"

[draken-heart]

Squire wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

...the only thing people hated for the most part was the shoulder pads being "a bit big."

The vambraces too...but yeah, the pauldrons were the main thing. Medieval armour was never modelled on American Football kit (which, btw, isn't made out of steel and isn't designed to resist being cut into a lot)

The real heaviest armor in medieval makes a Knight must use some help to mount a horse, that is believable...

That's jousting armour. It was made like that because it didn't have to be light and mobile, just strong enough to take a hit from a lance. A proper combat harness would be much lighter - this image of knights barely able to walk, and being unable to get up if they fall over, is a myth. I know several people who own a gothic harness, and they can move around surprisingly well in it. They can get up if they're knocked down, and they can even mount horses without help.

Comparing jousting armour to armour used in a battle is a bit like taking an Olympic athelete's kit and saying "Look, this is what soldiers wore when they went to war!"

And wouldn't armors in Dragon Age look different depending on the country they are made in?