20 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

This is a discussion about the relationship between the Geth race and the Quarians.  So, who are you sympathetic to in the struggle?  How do you think it'll play out in Mass Effect 2?  Do you think that they'll be a resolution to the Migrant Fleet's quest for a new homeworld?  Or will that be resolved with novels?

[Aedan_Cousland]

I'm more sympathetic to the Geth in the original struggle.



The Quarians overreacted when they discovered that the Geth had become sentient, and decided to wipe them out. The Quarians DID NOT have casus belli as no Geth had yet committed an act of violence against a Quarian. The Geth 'rebellion' wasn't a rebellion at all: the Quarians were the aggressors and the Geth were fighting in self defense. To be fair I'm not sure the Quarians deserved to lose their planet, and no doubt millions of innocent Quarians were also killed in the process, but one can't blame the Geth for fighting for their own survival. Any organic species would do the same.



I'm hoping for a peaceful resolution to the centuries old conflict, that will be engineered sometime in ME2 or ME3 by Shepard. Perhaps he can turn the Geth against the Reapers?

[Wiggletphyre]

It will probably hard to get peace with the geth

The geth are religious, and well talking sense into them just doesn't work since they will ignore everything you say and go back to quoting there book/datapad/stone or whatever holy document the geth worship.

And seeing how the geth have met one of there "Gods" and seeing how it hate's organic's, the geth will never be able to make peace with organic species since they would be failing there "Gods".

This might be where legion comes in, Seeing how he is smarter then the other geth, he might be able to see that the reapers are False gods that only care about themselves, and using the geth as tools for there own goals. So he was probably cast out of the geth society for being a  'Heretic' and will possibly join your squad to fight against the reapers to show the geth that they can be stopped and killed and are therefore not gods. Altrough the Geth probbaly have a hard time comprehending this, since there intelligence is based on the number of geth present and it will probably be hard for a geth to think on there own so they will still be easy to controll by the reapers.

So basicly, for the quarians to resolve this situation peavefully, they need to find out why legion evolved, and they must try to do the same to the other geth. To turn them from a religious mob into independent thinking Individuals so they can see the error in there ways.

[RyuKazuha]

Interesting topic indeed.



1: The Quarians made a huge mistake, when attempting genocide on the Geth, and they paid a bitter price on that. I feel sorry for them on the one hand side, on the other, i think they deserved this punishment.



2: The Geth had quite a bad start into their sentient period. Their creators tried to wipe them out, so they decided to wipe them out beforehand and thus made themselves the reason AIs all over the Galaxy are declared illegal.

BUT they never attempted to get "revenge" on the quarians, as we know of, they simply took their homeworld, erased every quarian there and never set foot outside the nebula until Sov picked them up as his tools, wich made them look even more bad.

Before, as i know, the Geth were just a quite territorial Species, that would kill any organic getting into there sphere of interest, but never attacked all by themselves.



I won't take sides with either of them though, but would attempt the Geth to open up to the Council Races (whilst excepting, that genocide is not the only method of solving a problem) and to the Quarians, to accept that they were wrong about how to handle this Species as it evolved beyond the wanted level.

[Willowhugger]

I believe the Geth had a chance to be more than they were. However, they aren't human. They're machines and they can't feel love, hope, pity, remorse, or other emotions that require an organic frame. I also feel that their cold and methodical genocide of the Quarians shows them that they're not victims; they're monsters.



If there's a "Destroy the Geth" moment like with the Rachni, I'm totally taking it.

[Andorfiend]

Willowhugger wrote...

I believe the Geth had a chance to be more than they were. However, they aren't human. They're machines and they can't feel love, hope, pity, remorse, or other emotions that require an organic frame. I also feel that their cold and methodical genocide of the Quarians shows them that they're not victims; they're monsters.

If there's a "Destroy the Geth" moment like with the Rachni, I'm totally taking it.

Where do you come by the idea that the Geth are emotionless? If they were emotionless they would have had no sense of self preservation and would have been wiped out without a struggle. They also would not have continued to evolve and improve themselves over the centuries since the Geth rebellion. Nor would they worship gods, or send samples of Quarian music back to their home systems. On the contrary, all signs point to the Geth being quite emotional beings, although there is no reason to suppose that their emotions are exact analogues of human emotions. Of course the same can be said of every other organic alien race.

The Council banned AI research fearing the potential of a post-singularity Intelligence loose in the Galaxy/Datanet. Interestingly enough the Geth in their basic design are not capable of a singularity takeoff, making them much closer to the organic races in terms of current capacity, although they have easier paths of upgrade.

The Reapers of course, seem to be a post-singularity AI form of life, and a single one nearly destroyed glactic civilization.

[RyuKazuha]

So you think they are monsters, since they have no feelings (if so)? Keeping it like that, you could say any human that cannot have feelings (wich is possible) isn't a human or qualified to be treated as such. As the Rachni are no monsters, the Geth are not, they are selfaware and therefore qualify as the same kind of sentient beings, as humans and the other known races do. Even if they don't have feelings (what i deny, as they worship something as a god, wich implies they are able to pledge themselves to something in a completely emotional way) they seem to be able to understand emotions in a scientific manner, as stated by Legion.

[JudgeQwerty]

I believe the Geth are as sentient as any other race and what the Quarians attempted was attempted genocide. Afterwards, they never attempted to strike at organics until Sovereign arrived, so I believe it shows that they are no more inherently militant than, say, the Turians or Krogan.

[Willowhugger]

The Geth can't have emotions because emotions are a result of endorphines and organic portions of our brain.  It's like asking why a piece of steel doesn't bleed, because it doesn't.  The Geth are sentient, I'm not disputing that, but they don't think like people.  They're the one true ALIEN race in Mass Effect.

I remind you that the Citadel A.I. flat out says that humans and machines can't co-exist peacefully.  The Luna A.I. also murders every human it can get it's hands on.  The Quarians tried to strike first but how exactly would you feel if the Geth STILL murdered all of them if they hadn't?  I believe they would.  Why?  Because there's no reason for a machine to feel pity, fear, or love.  It's not built for it.

Maybe sentience provides a "soul" and I could be wrong but there's a difference in my mind between beings like the Geth and the Rachni.  The Quarians are capable of love, feeling, and emotion.  They're human beings just in a funny shape.

The Geth are pretty much Fascism personified.  No more alive than Daleks.

[Fuzzyrabbit]

If I had to choose which one to save I'd pick the Geth. The Quarians broke Citadel law by creating an AI for use in manual labor. They then launched an unprovoked (and ultimately unsuccessful) genocide on the sentient life they created. In doing so they've indirectly endangered the rest of the galaxy by alienating the Geth and turning them into a tool for Sovereign. They've been absolutely reckless, and others have paid the price for their mistakes. I wouldn't be surprised if they hatched a similarly risky plan to defeat the reapers, and had it backfire on them again.

[JudgeQwerty]

Willowhugger wrote...

The Geth can't have emotions because emotions are a result of endorphines and organic portions of our brain.  It's like asking why a piece of steel doesn't bleed, because it doesn't.  The Geth are sentient, I'm not disputing that, but they don't think like people.  They're the one true ALIEN race in Mass Effect.

I remind you that the Citadel A.I. flat out says that humans and machines can't co-exist peacefully.  The Luna A.I. also murders every human it can get it's hands on.  The Quarians tried to strike first but how exactly would you feel if the Geth STILL murdered all of them if they hadn't?  I believe they would.  Why?  Because there's no reason for a machine to feel pity, fear, or love.  It's not built for it.

Maybe sentience provides a "soul" and I could be wrong but there's a difference in my mind between beings like the Geth and the Rachni.  The Quarians are capable of love, feeling, and emotion.  They're human beings just in a funny shape.

The Geth are pretty much Fascism personified.  No more alive than Daleks.

Well, the Daleks are mutants, not robots, and they certainly feel emotions luike anger and fear. The Cybermen would be a better Doctor Who reference in case you... actually... wanted to know...

*Has nothing to say regarding the actual discussion*

Modifié par JudgeQwerty, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:09 .

[Willowhugger]

Technically, the Daleks are mutants, not robots who certainly feel emotions luike anger and fear. The Cybermen would be a better Doctor Who reference incase you... acrually... wanted to know...

*Has nothing to say regarding the actual discussion*

Honestly, I'm overstating my case, but I do find it weird that people are totally sympathizing with the Geth.  I mean, the Quarians are this impoverished fleet of people living hand and mouth in isolation, hated by everyone, and the response of the average gamer is "they had it coming?"

Eeesh.

I get the idea that the Geth probably are sapients who have a right to exist and the Quarians reacted very stupidly, but if a serial killer is abused as a child; he's still a serial killer now.

[sirisaacx]

Willowhugger wrote...

The Geth can't have emotions because emotions are a result of endorphines and organic portions of our brain.  It's like asking why a piece of steel doesn't bleed, because it doesn't.  The Geth are sentient, I'm not disputing that, but they don't think like people.  They're the one true ALIEN race in Mass Effect.

I remind you that the Citadel A.I. flat out says that humans and machines can't co-exist peacefully.  The Luna A.I. also murders every human it can get it's hands on.  The Quarians tried to strike first but how exactly would you feel if the Geth STILL murdered all of them if they hadn't?  I believe they would.  Why?  Because there's no reason for a machine to feel pity, fear, or love.  It's not built for it.

Maybe sentience provides a "soul" and I could be wrong but there's a difference in my mind between beings like the Geth and the Rachni.  The Quarians are capable of love, feeling, and emotion.  They're human beings just in a funny shape.

The Geth are pretty much Fascism personified.  No more alive than Daleks.

The Geth asked their Quarian Masters "What is my purpose?" I don't think something devoid of emotion would question their divine purpose. The need to have a place in the universe is a very potent emotion, known as desire.

[Gtdef]

The rachni are monsters. Intelligent monsters, but monsters nevertheless. It is stated ingame that other races tried to contact the rachni and the bug mother****ers killed 'em all just for fun. Serves them well for trying to negotiate with bugs, they should had left them alone, but that's pretty much irrelevant. Not sure if they deserved genocide, I never quite understood why they were dragged into a galactic war at the first place. For some reason I released the queen most of the times I played. It's funny to have Parasini hunting down Rachni eggs in this lovely pink dress and getting dirty from egg goo.



Geth on the other hand are religious zealots. Dumb peoples . They use their sentience and intelligence to figure out how to kill faster and waste resources revering the reapers or whatever.



Nevermind, I'm pretty sure the Japanese will make geth, and they will get wiped too, just like quarians. So in a few years from now we will know exactly how it feels like having geth sneaking around.

[NKKKK]

During ME3 I expect a sequence of armies preparing for battle. Noverian Rachni (now numerous) boaring ships, the geth afleet also coming in, cured Krogan also preparing for battle. All the Citadel species arming themselves, the Terminus systems also picking themselves up.



All against one common enemy: The Reapers.

[Willowhugger]

The Geth asked their Quarian Masters "What is my purpose?" I don't think something devoid of emotion would question their divine purpose. The need to have a place in the universe is a very potent emotion, known as desire.

Processing information is different from genuine emotion I think.  It was a sign of creative thought.  I will admit, Tali mentioned that the Geth are bio-syntheoids so they might actually have emotions.  Also, the Geth appreciate music so I suppose they aren't totally soulless.

Still, for a race that's had 300 years to develop, they seem pretty bastardly.  They're attempting to invade Earth for no other reason than they hate organics, not to mention their collaboration with the Reapers.  Even if they had a hatred for the Quarians as their slave masters, their attack against human territory in Tali's quest is totally unprovoked.

[RyuKazuha]

Gtdef wrote...

The rachni are monsters. Intelligent monsters, but monsters nevertheless. It is stated ingame that other races tried to contact the rachni and the bug mother****ers killed 'em all just for fun. Serves them well for trying to negotiate with bugs, they should had left them alone, but that's pretty much irrelevant. Not sure if they deserved genocide, I never quite understood why they were dragged into a galactic war at the first place. For some reason I released the queen most of the times I played. It's funny to have Parasini hunting down Rachni eggs in this lovely pink dress and getting dirty from egg goo.

Geth on the other hand are religious zealots. Dumb peoples . They use their sentience and intelligence to figure out how to kill faster and waste resources revering the reapers or whatever.

Well. Killing just for fun on the one hand, and wasting there sentience and intelligence to figure out how to kill faster, wasting resources revering gods. I do know a species wich is the same. Guess wich? ;(

In fact, as long as we don't know whats going on behind the veil, we can't get a full picture on their culture, but since the geth warship gods, question their existence and seem to be interested in Quarian moaning about losing the homeplanet for whatever purpose, they are way more than "just machines" Also, just because joy is triggered by specific  proteins for humans, theres nothing implying, that AIs are not capable of processing similar feelings in some kind of way (Actually given the fact proteins are strictly defined, volus don't feel joy cause by proteins either).

As for the Quarians: I do feel pity for them, also i would not jugde the ones living in the present for the past "sins" as i not believe in a kind of collectiv guilt, that carries over through generations. However, it's no reason to hate the geth. Both races actually lost that war either way. The quarians lost their homeworld, the geth lost the chance to be accepted as a species worth to get along with. It's tragedy at it's best.

Edit: The Geth that left the nebula where controlled by Sov to some degree, i think he was the one who abused his position as a "god" and turned them into tools of his agenda. 

Modifié par RyuKazuha, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:28 .

[Lightice_av]

I sympathise with both the geth and the quarians. The quarians were in panic and made an incredibly stupid decision, and the geth responded in the only way they could in that situation.



We must remember that the geth we fought in the first game were invariably indoctrinated by the Sovereign, and not in their right minds. They've been prone of extreme isolationism, not agressive hatred of the organics, even though they would have a good reason for that hatred.



It's also subtly implied that the Rachni may have been indoctrinated or otherwise under mind-control during the Rachni Wars - remember that "sour yellow note" that the Rachni Queen spoke of?



They're both very different from the rest of the galactic civilizations, and peaceful communication with them can be hard, but it's neither impossible nor undesirable. And everybody has a common enemy in the Reapers, if only there'll be a way of convincing the geth that this is indeed the case.

[Fuzzyrabbit]

Willowhugger wrote...

The Geth can't have emotions because emotions are a result of endorphines and organic portions of our brain.  It's like asking why a piece of steel doesn't bleed, because it doesn't.  The Geth are sentient, I'm not disputing that, but they don't think like people.  They're the one true ALIEN race in Mass Effect.

I remind you that the Citadel A.I. flat out says that humans and machines can't co-exist peacefully.  The Luna A.I. also murders every human it can get it's hands on.  The Quarians tried to strike first but how exactly would you feel if the Geth STILL murdered all of them if they hadn't?  I believe they would.  Why?  Because there's no reason for a machine to feel pity, fear, or love.  It's not built for it.

Maybe sentience provides a "soul" and I could be wrong but there's a difference in my mind between beings like the Geth and the Rachni.  The Quarians are capable of love, feeling, and emotion.  They're human beings just in a funny shape.

The Geth are pretty much Fascism personified.  No more alive than Daleks.

There's no reason to believe that emotion is limited to an organic intellect. The human brain doesn't work so differently from a (very complicated) machine. The Geth have shown an ability to learn, reason and evolve in their own fashion. They don't all agree with one another, either. They've broken into factions with different beliefs. To top it all off, Legion's interest in Shepard is obsessive. Obsession is in and of itself entirely irrational, instinctive and emotional.

[Lightice_av]

The Geth can't have emotions because emotions are a result of endorphines and organic portions of our brain.

Portions that can easily be simulated by a complex enough computer. Brain doesn't have to be "wet" to contain capacity for emotion.

The Geth are pretty much Fascism personified. No more alive than Daleks.

First, the Daleks are alive. Second, the geth have nothing to do with facism - we have no idea what kind of governmental system they use, but judging from their strong link to one another, I would guess a very direct form of democracy. They even have factions, as has been mentioned in one commentary about Legion.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:37 .

[Gtdef]

RyuKazuha wrote...

Well. Killing just for fun on the one hand, and wasting there sentience and intelligence to figure out how to kill faster, wasting resources revering gods. I do know a species wich is the same. Guess wich? ;

Actually that was my point (for the second hand at least). That's why I'm saying we should wait for Japs to develop Geth so we can see for ourselves.

In fact, as long as we don't know whats going on behind the veil, we can't get a full picture on their culture, but since the geth warship gods, question their existence and seem to be interested in Quarian moaning about losing the homeplanet for whatever purpose, they are way more than "just machines" Also, just because joy is triggered by specific  proteins for humans, theres nothing implying, that AIs are not capable of processing similar feelings in some kind of way (Actually given the fact proteins are strictly defined, volus don't feel joy cause by proteins either).

Im not really an expert at 22th century AI programming and technology, but codex says that the AI is actually data stored in a "blue box". So I guess the basic "emotions" that those machines "feel" are actually triggers that tell them when to proceed and when to withdraw. For example, they analyze a situation, if the danger of "death" is over some percentage, they turn back, and this action may translate to "fear" in some way. Same principle to the rest of the emotions. The tricky part is their evolution. Legion is a far more impressive construct than the rest. Is he an accident? Is he a more advanced machine the quarians built to "supervise" the rest, or maybe he is empowered with reaper technology? Of couse I may be completely and gloriously mistaken. Tali claimed after all that the Quarians never actually broke the law and Geth were not true AI development. Maybe they were sabotaged like the Rogue VI quest? Who knows.

As for the Quarians: I do feel pity for them, also i would not jugde the ones living in the present for the past "sins" as i not believe in a kind of collectiv guilt, that carries over through generations. However, it's no reason to hate the geth. Both races actually lost that war either way. The quarians lost their homeworld, the geth lost the chance to be accepted as a species worth to get along with. It's tragedy at it's best.

Quarians are powerful little guys tho. Brilliant engineers, strong willed, disciplined and resilient. The real problem is the council. I mean, the turian guy is really dumb, he should not be the one to take decisions that affect the whole galaxy. I doubt his predecessors were any better.

Edit: The Geth that left the nebula where controlled by Sov to some degree, i think he was the one who abused his position as a "god" and turned them into tools of his agenda. 

The Geth knew Sovereign's schemes (except the part that they get nothing in return). Also Sovereign was not some mystical magic guy. Those geth that followed Sovereign and Saren were renegade zealots. Sovereign was more like a spiritual leader.

Bleh, I never thought of myself making such wild assumptions for a science fiction game. Those guys from Bioware must feel real good when they read these boards .