508 réponses à ce sujet

[Bionuts]

Lol "most evil". It shows that morals are subjective.

Here we have elves being raped, murdered, baby elves being killed in their sleep, etc. In Fereldan.

Seems much worse than Qunari.

[movieguyabw]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Ukki wrote...
Because they are the most evil society in all Thedas?

I disagree. None of the societies in Thedas are pleasent and the qunari are no different.

This.   I actually kind of like the Qunari, but yeah, they are just as morally reprehensible as practically everyone else in DA.  (not that that's necessarily a bad thing, mind you )  

[Laughing_Man]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think Mary Kirby or one of the devs did mention that recently the Qunari have allowed mages to have roles in the Ben-Hassrath. Presumably this is the explanation as to why some Qunari seem to refer to even a mage Hawke having a role in the Qun.

At first glance this seems like a shameless retcon. (to make Qunari look better maybe?) 
But we shall see.

[Dermain]

TheRedVipress wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think Mary Kirby or one of the devs did mention that recently the Qunari have allowed mages to have roles in the Ben-Hassrath. Presumably this is the explanation as to why some Qunari seem to refer to even a mage Hawke having a role in the Qun.

At first glance this seems like a shameless retcon. (to make Qunari look better maybe?) 
But we shall see.

It's not a retcon if the information that we currently have is incomplete/vague.

[Laughing_Man]

Myrkale wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think Mary Kirby or one of the devs did mention that recently the Qunari have allowed mages to have roles in the Ben-Hassrath. Presumably this is the explanation as to why some Qunari seem to refer to even a mage Hawke having a role in the Qun.

At first glance this seems like a shameless retcon. (to make Qunari look better maybe?) 
But we shall see.

It's not a retcon if the information that we currently have is incomplete/vague.

Maybe.
Personally, I don't see any room for wiggling in Qunari ideology when it comes to mages.
I mean, the word "Arvaarad" means "holds back Evil", and Sten admitted that even a super-special person like a gray-warden mage, would not be allowed to leave. (in other words, will be either "re-educated", or killed)
Those things don't leave alot of room for interpretation *without a retcon*.

[Thomas Andresen]

Oh, don't even get me started on Sten becoming the new Arishok, especially since it's regardless of your past choices.

I mean, I love the guy, but Bioware's obsession with all your companions becoming super-important people in the universe no matter how much sense it does or doesn't make is, frankly, really annoying.

Sten becoming the Arishok is just one possibility, which at the very least will require you to have helped him find his sword in Origins. I'm pretty sure it also requires you to kill the original Arishok as Hawke in DA2. But those two things given, calling it fan-service wouldn't be unfair.

Opposing is one thing, but antagonizing victims of slavery, brainwashing, and torture is silly.

This, pretty much.

I am not asking to be able to taunt them and kick them. I am asking that we be able to show our complete and utter disgust and disagreement for their worldview in conversation, just as we would any slaver we confront.

Given the context, those are pretty much the same thing.


Personally, I would actively hate the Qun if it was real, but in the game, while I don't ever choose to actually support them, I don't see the point in going out of my way to actively provoke them. When the entirety of the Tevinter Imperium cannot even shake their grasp on a single island, that seems to me, from the beginning, as a rather elaborate form of suicide, with loads of collateral damage.

Oh, wait. That already did happen.

(Edit to fix quote)

Modifié par Thomas Andresen, 05 octobre 2013 - 01:13 .

[Uccio]

movieguyabw wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Ukki wrote...
Because they are the most evil society in all Thedas?

I disagree. None of the societies in Thedas are pleasent and the qunari are no different.

This.   I actually kind of like the Qunari, but yeah, they are just as morally reprehensible as practically everyone else in DA.  (not that that's necessarily a bad thing, mind you )  

Qunari are THE evil and they need to be rooted away from Thedas completely. Monstroys society which gives no room for personalities and are out to destroy other civilizations. Atleast in any other society there is a room for personalities and even can advance in social ladders. But not under the qun. They are like borgs from star trek.

[PnXMarcin1PL]

in my game ill use one rule death to the qun

[The Spanish Inquisitor]

So The Qun does not chain and gag all of their mages, I feel much better now. 

To Answer OP: Yes, I would like to say something everytime some Qunari tells me I don't understand, because the Qun is too deep. Personally I respected the Arishok, I never wanted to argue because he is the Arishok, his faith in Qun is unquestionable but it was frustating that Tallis, who actively defy what she was told by the Qun kept on defending the Qun by saying I dont understand. So basically option to tell the Qunari they are wrong or telling them to stop preaching it to me, but I definitely will have a play through with my character converting or being of the Qun , if the option is ever put in the game.
I have no intention of murdering people who does not share my belief, I believe I like and think each culture is worth preserving, So if the Qunari are happy with the Qun let them be, many become Tal Vasoth so Maybe one day the Qun will become more accepting.

Different culture and Different custom just makes the world richer, both in game and in real life.

Modifié par LittleBlueChildren, 05 octobre 2013 - 03:01 .

[Laughing_Man]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Qunari are THE evil and they need to be rooted away from Thedas completely. Monstroys society which gives no room for personalities and are out to destroy other civilizations. Atleast in any other society there is a room for personalities and even can advance in social ladders. But not under the qun. They are like borgs from star trek.

This is again false. Qunari have personalities, likes, dislikes, and emotions just like the other races of Thedas. They just show them differently. And we have only met those who work for their military. I imagine a qunari merchant would be a lot more different than Sten or the Arishok for instance.

And they do advance in their social ladders (Sten for instance) a soldier just isn't going to go advance into the priesthood or become a merchant. That isn't his role.

Tevinter, Orlais, etc. Are all just as guilty of destroying and subverting civilizations as the qunari are as well.

They aren't any more evil than any other society in Thedas. Just more alien.

The reason that Qunari ruthlessness is more alarming to many people than other acts of evil by other factions,
is that in contrast to other fctions, most Qunari are too brainwashed to consider it evil.

And therefore you can expect evil not from extremiests and individuals or even just parts of their society, but from almost everyone belonging to the Qun. They just don't see it as evil, and I don't think that they recognise a concept like mercy, it's more about what's "usefull" and "not-usefull" to the Qun.

[In Exile]

TheRedVipress wrote...

Maybe.
Personally, I don't see any room for wiggling in Qunari ideology when it comes to mages.
I mean, the word "Arvaarad" means "holds back Evil",

You have to remember, though, that the evil is a reference to demons, not the mage. It's still abhorent what they do, but they're not, according to the codex, punishing or persecuting the mages (in their eyes). Obviously they're doing exactly that in practice. But since the rationale is different, you might find exceptions.

and Sten admitted that even a super-special person like a gray-warden mage, would not be allowed to leave. (in other words, will be either "re-educated", or killed) 
Those things don't leave alot of room for interpretation *without a retcon*. 

That's presumably because GWs don't have the correct role, and being a GW wouldn't be "special" in the eyes of the Qun. It doesn't follow from the fact they forcibly indoctrinate everyone that everyone is only allowed one role, ever or that there's only one role for mages. 

[In Exile]

TheRedVipress wrote...

The reason that Qunari ruthlessness is more alarming to many people than other acts of evil by other factions,
is that in contrast to other fctions, most Qunari are too brainwashed to consider it evil.

You think slavers or templars consider themselves or their actions evil?

[Laughing_Man]

In Exile wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

Maybe.
Personally, I don't see any room for wiggling in Qunari ideology when it comes to mages.
I mean, the word "Arvaarad" means "holds back Evil",

You have to remember, though, that the evil is a reference to demons, not the mage. It's still abhorent what they do, but they're not, according to the codex, punishing or persecuting the mages (in their eyes). Obviously they're doing exactly that in practice. But since the rationale is different, you might find exceptions.

and Sten admitted that even a super-special person like a gray-warden mage, would not be allowed to leave. (in other words, will be either "re-educated", or killed) 
Those things don't leave alot of room for interpretation *without a retcon*. 

That's presumably because GWs don't have the correct role, and being a GW wouldn't be "special" in the eyes of the Qun. It doesn't follow from the fact they forcibly indoctrinate everyone that everyone is only allowed one role, ever or that there's only one role for mages. 

I still don't see how all this supports another "role" for mages.
You just pointed out how very bull-headed they are even when it comes to a GW, because it's "against regulation".
(and they did recognise the threat of a blight, the reason for sending Sten)
I find it hard to imagine any kind of role in which the mage is not a chained beast, and still fits their regulations.

[Laughing_Man]

In Exile wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

The reason that Qunari ruthlessness is more alarming to many people than other acts of evil by other factions,
is that in contrast to other fctions, most Qunari are too brainwashed to consider it evil.

You think slavers or templars consider themselves or their actions evil?

Slavers don't pretend to be good, and if you ask them they will probably admit that they are "evil".
And templars are not always evil.

[Thomas Andresen]

And templars are not always evil.

And all Qunari always are?

[Uccio]

Yes. They are. What redvipress said.

[Bionuts]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Thing is, my friend, very few people actually think they are evil.

Yup. Most people simply deflect.

Liar: At least I'm not a thief

Thief: At least I'm not an adulterer

Adulterer: At least I'm not a rapist

Rapist: At least I'm not a child molester

Child molester: At least I'm not a murderer

Murderer: At least I'm not a serial killer

Serial Killer: At least I'm not Hitler

[Medhia Nox]

Well... it's true, at least I'm not Hitler.

[Laughing_Man]

Ukki wrote...

Yes. They are. What redvipress said.

*facepalm*
No I didn't. I never claimed that Qunari are evil.

What I said was that most Qunari will never consider various horrible and ruthless acts as evil,
and that you can expect said acts not only from a filthy few, but rather from almost everyone.
*Because they were mind-washed into believing that those acts are not evil*.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 06 octobre 2013 - 02:36 .

[Richardthelionbutt]

TheRedVipress wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Yes. They are. What redvipress said.

*facepalm*
No I didn't. I never claimed that Qunari are evil.

What I said was that most Qunari will never consider various horrible and ruthless acts as evil,
and that you can expect said acts not only from a filthy few, but rather from almost everyone.
*Because they were mind-washed into believing that those acts are not evil*.

Huh, interesting, because where I'm from "said acts (which I believe means evil doings), will come from everyone (all of the Qunari)" means "all of the Qunari are evil."

[DPSSOC]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Ukki wrote...
Because they are the most evil society in all Thedas?

I disagree. None of the societies in Thedas are pleasent and the qunari are no different.

The Qunari are actually a lot better than most societies.  There is no bigotry, no poverty, you are judged only by what you are capable of doing, and supported by your community.  Nobody is cast aside in the Qun, they work to find a place for you, where you can contribute to the best of your abilities.

Ukki wrote...
Qunari are THE evil and they need to be rooted away from Thedas completely. Monstroys society which gives no room for personalities and are out to destroy other civilizations. Atleast in any other society there is a room for personalities and even can advance in social ladders. But not under the qun. They are like borgs from star trek.

Yes Tallis, the Arishok, and Sten were all indistinguishable drones.  If we couldn't see them we'd have never been able to tell which was which.  The Qunari do allow for advancement, Sten becoming Arishok proves that if nothing else does.  Yes their society is rigidly structured, yes they really limit social mobility (side to side if not up and down), no they don't particularly care about the wants of the individual, but none of that makes them evil.  The first two are no different from any other culture we've encountered except that the Qunari don't foster the illusion that it's otherwise.  As for the third who cares what the individual wants?  The individual is stupid and generally doesn't know what's in their best interests.  More importantly the individual is just one part of the greater whole that is society, what makes their wants so important.

[Laughing_Man]

Richardthelionbutt wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Yes. They are. What redvipress said.

*facepalm*
No I didn't. I never claimed that Qunari are evil.

What I said was that most Qunari will never consider various horrible and ruthless acts as evil,
and that you can expect said acts not only from a filthy few, but rather from almost everyone.
*Because they were mind-washed into believing that those acts are not evil*.

Huh, interesting, because where I'm from "said acts (which I believe means evil doings), will come from everyone (all of the Qunari)" means "all of the Qunari are evil."

Evil is something that is closely tied to the intent of the one responsible to it.
There are minute but important differences between evil and misguided.