508 réponses à ce sujet

[Fredward]

This is one of those areas I'd like the ability to express an actual opinion and not just the reactionary statements we get when speaking with someone. Like a reasoned opinion. That someone actually thought about.

Hawke came close when the Arishok asks how s/he can be happy in this mess of a city and whether they'd change it is s/he could and one of the options is something along the lines of "It's life, beautiful and wild." I liked that idea. Life being this huge interplay between forces and counterforces all like clashing together in this never ending orgiastic hot mess of social evolution.

And then I wondered that life under the Qun was like. Your life was dictated right from birth. Any deviation was seen almost as a kind of pathology and you were "re-educated." And then I wondered whether the Qunari had art. Whether they painted, or wrote anything that wasn't related to the Qun (can you imagine a Qunari romance novel?) or had music that didn't have the express purpose of war or communication. I wonder whether qunari teenagers ever walked down their streets with baggy pants, drunk and shouting obscenities at innocent passersby. Or whether the neophyte intelligentsia ever questioned the Qun or whether even getting to that point had a "completely indoctrinated" prerequisite.

It's stifling, to put it lightly. Qunari society crushes or hollows out the individual in favour of the collective. Deviation from your pre-determined path is valid grounds for execution or a one way ticket to pariah status. I might be wrong ofc, the Qunari could have a lively and vibrant art scene and then my views would need some serious revision.

But assuming I'm not I see the Qunari as less of a society of living people and more like a machine. Effective because its paradigms are rigid and well defined and thus really, really scary from a humanistic perspective.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
And then I wondered that life under the Qun was like. Your life was dictated right from birth.

I don't know where you got this, but Qunari aren't assigned roles until the age of twelve. It's not really a caste system in that way.

[Laughing_Man]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
And then I wondered that life under the Qun was like. Your life was dictated right from birth.

I don't know where you got this, but Qunari aren't assigned roles until the age of twelve. It's not really a caste system in that way.

Nitpicking. Twelve is to early anyway for this kind of thing.
And it's not like what he wrote was based on this single relatively unimportant detail anyway.

[Uccio]

TheRedVipress wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Yes. They are. What redvipress said.

*facepalm*
No I didn't. I never claimed that Qunari are evil.

What I said was that most Qunari will never consider various horrible and ruthless acts as evil,
and that you can expect said acts not only from a filthy few, but rather from almost everyone.
*Because they were mind-washed into believing that those acts are not evil*.

Yeah, I got that. Should have been more specific but I was just referring to the ruthless part with what I would agree. The evil part was all mine. 

[Uccio]

DPSSOC wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Ukki wrote...
Because they are the most evil society in all Thedas?

I disagree. None of the societies in Thedas are pleasent and the qunari are no different.

The Qunari are actually a lot better than most societies.  There is no bigotry, no poverty, you are judged only by what you are capable of doing, and supported by your community.  Nobody is cast aside in the Qun, they work to find a place for you, where you can contribute to the best of your abilities.

Ukki wrote...
Qunari are THE evil and they need to be rooted away from Thedas completely. Monstroys society which gives no room for personalities and are out to destroy other civilizations. Atleast in any other society there is a room for personalities and even can advance in social ladders. But not under the qun. They are like borgs from star trek.

Yes Tallis, the Arishok, and Sten were all indistinguishable drones.  If we couldn't see them we'd have never been able to tell which was which.  The Qunari do allow for advancement, Sten becoming Arishok proves that if nothing else does.  Yes their society is rigidly structured, yes they really limit social mobility (side to side if not up and down), no they don't particularly care about the wants of the individual, but none of that makes them evil.  The first two are no different from any other culture we've encountered except that the Qunari don't foster the illusion that it's otherwise.  As for the third who cares what the individual wants?  The individual is stupid and generally doesn't know what's in their best interests.  More importantly the individual is just one part of the greater whole that is society, what makes their wants so important.

So in which game did Sten become Arishok, because I don't recall that happening? If you are referring to books or comics then those do not count.

Modifié par Ukki, 06 octobre 2013 - 07:49 .

[Daissran]

I think Qunari society is equally as bad or as good as any other society we have come across so far.

It's obvious the Qunari value and protect their people, regardless of race. I think, for the vast majority, they find comfort in the role they are assigned. I doubt they have poverty or crime or race violence, like we have seen in Fereldan and Kirkwall. I imagine they form friendships, bonds and closeness with other Qunari and have respect for each other.

I'm not going to dismiss them as crazy because so far, we haven't seen *enough* Qunari yet. We haven't seen their country, their homes, we haven't seen women or children, or them living their lives, farming, working, etc. We've only seen warriors so far, both in Sten and the Arishok.

[Potato Cat]

Ukki, it was the comics, and it does count. But regardless, Qunari have their roles changed all the time, sometimes even moving from a different member of the Triumvirate. For a time, Tallis was Athlok, a general labourer, under the Arigena instead of the Ariqun when she was one of the Ben-Hassrath.

[Xilizhra]

It's obvious the Qunari value and protect their people, regardless of race. I think, for the vast majority, they find comfort in the role they are assigned. I doubt they have poverty or crime or race violence, like we have seen in Fereldan and Kirkwall. I imagine they form friendships, bonds and closeness with other Qunari and have respect for each other.

I doubt that they don't. They're still sapient, after all, and subject to the same foibles.

[DPSSOC]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
And then I wondered that life under the Qun was like. Your life was dictated right from birth.

I don't know where you got this, but Qunari aren't assigned roles until the age of twelve. It's not really a caste system in that way.

Even if it were from birth that'd make it no different than Dwarf society and people seem to love them.

TheRedVipress wrote...

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
And then I wondered that life under the Qun was like. Your life was dictated right from birth.

I don't know where you got this, but Qunari aren't assigned roles until the age of twelve. It's not really a caste system in that way.

Nitpicking. Twelve is to early anyway for this kind of thing.
And it's not like what he wrote was based on this single relatively unimportant detail anyway.

I'd disagree.  Even if we're dealing with life expectancies and maturity rates of modern day 12 is plenty old enough to determine what you'd be good at.

Ukki wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Ukki wrote...
Qunari are THE evil and they need to be rooted away from Thedas completely. Monstroys society which gives no room for personalities and are out to destroy other civilizations. Atleast in any other society there is a room for personalities and even can advance in social ladders. But not under the qun. They are like borgs from star trek.

Yes Tallis, the Arishok, and Sten were all indistinguishable drones.  If we couldn't see them we'd have never been able to tell which was which.  The Qunari do allow for advancement, Sten becoming Arishok proves that if nothing else does.  Yes their society is rigidly structured, yes they really limit social mobility (side to side if not up and down), no they don't particularly care about the wants of the individual, but none of that makes them evil.  The first two are no different from any other culture we've encountered except that the Qunari don't foster the illusion that it's otherwise.  As for the third who cares what the individual wants?  The individual is stupid and generally doesn't know what's in their best interests.  More importantly the individual is just one part of the greater whole that is society, what makes their wants so important.

So in which game did Sten become Arishok, because I don't recall that happening? If you are referring to books or comics then those do not count.

#1 - The Dragon Age novels and comics aren't the Star Wars EU, they aren't other authours getting approval from the creator to sell fan fiction.  They are written by the same people who make the games so yes they do count.  While the events might not play out exactly as they've written for all playthroughs anything established in general lore does count.  In the comics Sten does become Arishok therefore, regardless of your playthrough, Sten could become Arishok.

#2 - Even if we accept that the books and comics don't count Sten and the Arishok on their own prove that it is possible to climb the social ladder.  Sten was not made commander of a scouting party at age 12, the idea is ludicrous, nor was the Arishok given command of the entire Qunari military.  They had roles in the military and as they proved their ability their roles changed.

[Xilizhra]

Even if it were from birth that'd make it no different than Dwarf society and people seem to love them.

I don't know anyone who doesn't think that dwarf society completely sucks.

[Sir JK]

In attempt to address the original premise and avoid any discussion on the morality/viability/opinion regarding the Qun, I think there's a problem with escalation when it comes to proper disrespect being possible to express.

Disagreement is one thing, one that I hope is retained/reintroduced so that it's always available to us. I should not have to agree with any one set of ideas in the setting, much like I should not have to disagree to any one of them. I might be, based on circumstance, forced to oppose them however, but that's a separate matter. All in all though, rational disagreement is a relatively easy thing to allow for. It can be expressed in a rather neutral fashion and avoid touching on why there is a disagreement, thus allowing us to decide for ourselves why our character's do so.

But disrespect is trickier. For one, what is proper disrepsect is individual. Some people might merely want to tell their counterpart in a calm and composed manner that they find the other ideology terrible and want no dealing with them. Others may want to kick and scream, hurl verbal abuse and with great passion and emotion argue why it's horrible. Others may feel that the only proper way to do it is to openly start defiling their beliefs, in front of the practitioners even.
All those extremes and anything inbetween could fit under the umbrella of "proper disrepsect". It's entirely subjective and unless you provide multiple options covering most approaches there's always someone that's going to feel it did not go far enough/it went too far/went at it the wrong way.

So either they'd have to pick one, and thus leave a lot of people desiring it still unsatisfied with the option. Or we're talking about making an entire dialogue hub that's just different ways to disrespect something. Which isn't exactly trivial.

Then there's the second issue... if I can disrespect the Qun... should I be able to disrespect other ideologies/religions? Should I be able to disrespect Mage freedom struggle? And again... not just disagree or oppose but openly disrespect it. Should I be able to do so towards the Chantry? The Imperial Chantry? Casteless dwarves? Dalish? City elves? Blacksmiths?

Where do you draw the line? What would be okay to express disrepsect towards and what would not? Should some of these be singled out as okay to disrespect and others be protected? Just how much effort should they put in to allow us to hurl abuse on something we disagree with?

Disrespect, while technically nice looking at it from the freedom to express one's character perspective, is one of those things that likely would either leave us merely wanting more (more targets, more actions, more opinions expressed) or would take a serious amount of work to implement.
Not to mention that it could very easily veer off into territory that would actually end up being awfully uncomfortable for some people. It's a very slippery slope in that regard.

And if I am allowed to disrepect something... should I be allowed to cherish it as well? Maybe I am playing a character that would express adulation? And what does that mean? How do one cover the expremes of praise in a few short options?

Again, like I mentioned above, I absolutely support being able to disagree. Or, if forced to work with a disagreeable group for whatever the reason, at least voice displeasure over the matter. But disrespect is one of those things I suspect is difficult to pull of satisfactory.

[Navasha]

I think ultimately that is all anyone is asking for... conversation options that allow us to tell the Qunari that they are completely wrong (in our opinion).

There were a few times in DA2 where this was possible, yet many of the conversations you were just sort of forced to sit there and "nod" in agreement. I realize this maybe because we were still learning about the Qun still at this point and the focus was to figure out what they believed.

When NPCs bring up the Chantry and start preaching we are given the option to say "I don't believe in the Maker". When people bring up slavery, we are given the option "I don't like slavery or slavers".

There were just a few too many times when the Qun was being discussed and you were railroaded into an 'acceptance' of their society. Not every time. There were definitely times you could say that they were nuts. However, it just "felt" like you didn't have a proper way of expressing your contempt for their society.

Its as if someone was saying, "You have to understand, we NEED to eat your children." and the harshest response possible was.... "I am sorry, we will just have to agree to disagree."

[Fredward]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
And then I wondered that life under the Qun was like. Your life was dictated right from birth.

I don't know where you got this, but Qunari aren't assigned roles until the age of twelve. It's not really a caste system in that way.

Uhm okay. Your life was dictated right from age 12 then. The age wasn't really the important bit though, the dictated part was.

[Mox Ruuga]

Navasha wrote...

Its as if someone was saying, "You have to understand, we NEED to eat your children." and the harshest response possible was.... "I am sorry, we will just have to agree to disagree."

Yeah, I remember the conversation options after Sten's tirade against mages, and the revelation how they are viewed in Qunari society (beasts, was the word he used I think).

Something like:

- Let's not discuss this
- Some mages are good
- Don't you think you are being a bit extreme?

Utterly spineless, from the Warden who had been allowed to be consistently feisty and opinionated until then.

I get that some in the writing team are hard core fans of this sort of... "society". I just wish they'd be able to better mask their preferences, and have a bit more balance in the portrayal of the different groups and creeds.

[zMataxa]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Navasha wrote...

Its as if someone was saying, "You have to understand, we NEED to eat your children." and the harshest response possible was.... "I am sorry, we will just have to agree to disagree."

Yeah, I remember the conversation options after Sten's tirade against mages, and the revelation how they are viewed in Qunari society (beasts, was the word he used I think).

Something like:

- Let's not discuss this
- Some mages are good
- Don't you think you are being a bit extreme?

Utterly spineless, from the Warden who had been allowed to be consistently feisty and opinionated until then.

____________________

I really remember in detail now.  Yeah.  I did ALOT of eye-rolling when dealing with Sten and then seeing my "soft" choices.  Totally support this thread.

Modifié par zMataxa, 07 octobre 2013 - 03:49 .

[Vit246]

zMataxa wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Navasha wrote...

Its as if someone was saying, "You have to understand, we NEED to eat your children." and the harshest response possible was.... "I am sorry, we will just have to agree to disagree."

Yeah, I remember the conversation options after Sten's tirade against mages, and the revelation how they are viewed in Qunari society (beasts, was the word he used I think).

Something like:

- Let's not discuss this
- Some mages are good
- Don't you think you are being a bit extreme?

Utterly spineless, from the Warden who had been allowed to be consistently feisty and opinionated until then.

____________________

I really remember in detail now.  Yeah.  I did ALOT of eye-rolling when dealing with Sten and then seeing my "soft" choices.  Totally support this thread.

It was totally like this with the Arishok too. It's like a "Can't Argue With Elves" thing. 

Modifié par Vit246, 07 octobre 2013 - 04:16 .

[Mox Ruuga]

Vit246 wrote...


It was totally like this with the Arishok too. It's like a "Can't Argue With Elves" thing. 

Yeah, thats it.

The Warden was allowed to sass nearly everyone else, from the King of Ferelden to the Dreaded Witch of the Wilds. But for some reason a foot soldier preaching conformist nonsense somehow manages to shut her up?

And thus it has been with the Qun and its Bots ever since. Luckily I read the user reviews of Mark of the Assassin, and managed to avoid what seems to have been yet another Qun worshipping episode...

[SirGladiator]

There definitely wasn't enough opportunity to disagree with the qunari in MotA, but that DLC is way too much fun to miss just because of that. Its not like you couldn't disagree at all, you just don't get to disagree as much as you should be able to. I certainly agree that going forward, you should be able to more strongly disagree with them, and in some cases get them to see the light. I especially hope, for those that choose to play as a qunari in DAI, that we'll have plenty of opportunity to make it clear that we aren't like the qunari in any way other than appearance only. The ability to disagree with the qunari seems a pretty basic, and important, factor considering they want to take over the world and all.

[Former_Fiend]

Vit246 wrote...


It was totally like this with the Arishok too. It's like a "Can't Argue With Elves" thing. 

I pointed this out earlier, but no one really picked up on it; when you're talking with the Arishok, you're coming into his territory surrounded by his soldiers who are armed to the teeth, and are addressing the biggest badass in qunari society.

Whether or not you'd like your Hawke to agree with the qun or to vehenmently disrespect it, I have to imagine that Hawke, regardless of personality, simply isn't stupid enough to go running his/her mouth. By the time Hawke's in a position to viably survive such a confrontation, it's a moot point as they're attacking anyway.

[Former_Fiend]

TheRedVipress wrote...

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
And then I wondered that life under the Qun was like. Your life was dictated right from birth.

I don't know where you got this, but Qunari aren't assigned roles until the age of twelve. It's not really a caste system in that way.

Nitpicking. Twelve is to early anyway for this kind of thing.
And it's not like what he wrote was based on this single relatively unimportant detail anyway.

Adolecence is an invention of the twentieth century. 

Every other twelve year old in Thedas probably has their life all set out for them by the time they reach that age if not before. It's implicit instead of institutional, but the majority of people are going to stick to the lot they were born into. The exceptional may rise above, but the nameless, faceless masses that are not the protagonists of the series are separated from the members of the qun in that the role fate has chosen for them is up to random chance, not asigned based on what they'd actually excell at.

[Sharn01]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Qunari are actually a lot better than most societies.  There is no bigotry, no poverty, you are judged only by what you are capable of doing, and supported by your community.  Nobody is cast aside in the Qun, they work to find a place for you, where you can contribute to the best of your abilities.

This is not actually true, your race and gender limit what roles are available to fill regardless of your capabilities.  The kossith qunari, I will use that name for a lack of a better term, do not actually consider non kossith qunari as true qunari, they give them a different name and they are not seen as full members of their society. 

I also highly doubt that people will always be given a job they are best suited for even within the limitations placed on them by their race and gender either, real world societies have tried to do that very thing many times in human history and it has never been fully successful, and usually was one of the primary causes of the societies downfall in the long term.

Modifié par Sharn01, 07 octobre 2013 - 09:00 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Its kinda arbitrary. While a woman can never be a soldier in the Qun, she can be employed in other fighting capabilities, such as the Ben-Hassrath. So gender does limit, but it isn't deregatory.

[Sharn01]

Morocco Mole wrote...

This is not actually true, your race and gender limit what roles are available to fill regardless of your capabilities. The kossith qunari, I will use that name for a lack of a better term, do not actually consider non kossith qunari as true qunari, they give them a different name and they are not seen as full members of their society.

This is false.

Its true, only kossith qunari are allowed in the army as an example, and only male ones at that. 

The kossith qunari do not refer to non kossith qunari as qunari, this was stated by David Gaider here on the forums, it was brought up during the debate in how to refer to kossith qunari, and was one of his main argument as to why they should just be referred to as qunari.