508 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Myrkale wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This isn't about collectivism, this is about qunari mass murder of foreigners and mutilation and enslavement of minorities in their own society.

Then you're going to have to remain disappointed in the moral bankruptcy in Thedas. You've described every culture in Thedas.

Er, do tell me where the Dalish/Rivaini/Chasind/Fereldans, even, are still doing that.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Genetivi's codex entry from Dragon Age 2 on Tal'Vashoth appears to imply that Qunari who leave the Qun are merely exiled. And they don't become "Tal'Vashoth" unless they turn the violence. And his source for this is a Riviani matriarch from a Rivaini Qunari village in the north.

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Er, do tell me where the Dalish/Rivaini/Chasind/Fereldans, even, are still doing that.

Feraldans alone still exploit their elven population and their lower class.

Dalish are a xenophobic and insular group of people that will probably murder you if you are a human.

That's for starters

Thank you for not actually fulfilling either of my criteria with either example.

[zMataxa]

Myrkale wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This isn't about collectivism, this is about qunari mass murder of foreigners and mutilation and enslavement of minorities in their own society.

Then you're going to have to remain disappointed in the moral bankruptcy in Thedas. You've described every culture in Thedas.

________________________

It's a matter of degrees.
The Quanari are 100%.
The Qunari are like the Borg.  There is only one idelology. Period.  Or you are kicked out.
AND WORSE, they seek to impose on it every breathing thing they encounter when they have the time and energy, becasue they are the epitome of self-righteous.

The various cultures in Thedas are of course ranging for self-preservation(elves) to missionarylike (the chantry).  But in the end - a plurality exists in Thedas.
In the land of the Qun, you are in or you are not.
So there's a greater degree of tolerance by virtue of the plurality, AND that's thanks to... Individuality!!.

(Remember, the best thing you can expect from the Qun is great city sanitation !)

Modifié par zMataxa, 08 octobre 2013 - 05:59 .

[zMataxa]

StreetMagic wrote...

I'd like the freedom to support or question it. That gives replay value, if anything. No railroading my character's psychology, like Mass Effect 3 does at times.

________________

Ahhhh...exactly.  Freedom! to Decide as an individual.
We all know what Sten/Arishok and company would say about that.
Oh yeah, it was awesome to be able to send Sten to the afterlife in DA2!

PS. The Qunari is an awesome discussion piece for collective vs indivdual.

[zMataxa]

StreetMagic wrote...

Just saying though. I like the older style of Bioware games where we were both a little bit director and a little bit audience of the story. I don't think we can ever have total freedom of choices, but I definitely don't want to just be dragged around and pushed into places at the writer's whim.

__________________

I totally agree in principle.
IMO the dev Challenge seems to have become: with the current focus AND sucess of making games more immersive (VA, cutscenes, gorgeous graphics), we have to give up something (shorter game and more branched?)  or pay more. 
Honestly, I am skeptical I could go back to the more text/options/less glossy BG days. 
I may try - just for ****** and giggles.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Genetivi's codex entry from Dragon Age 2 on Tal'Vashoth appears to imply that Qunari who leave the Qun are merely exiled. And they don't become "Tal'Vashoth" unless they turn the violence. And his source for this is a Riviani matriarch from a Rivaini Qunari village in the north.

How dare you come here and use established lore to show you can leave the Qun?!?!?!? The Qunari are EVUL!

[Dermain]

Xilizhra wrote...

Myrkale wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This isn't about collectivism, this is about qunari mass murder of foreigners and mutilation and enslavement of minorities in their own society.

Then you're going to have to remain disappointed in the moral bankruptcy in Thedas. You've described every culture in Thedas.

Er, do tell me where the Dalish/Rivaini/Chasind/Fereldans, even, are still doing that.

Well let's look at the Dalish Origin. Tamlen: Hey, there's some humans over there! Let's kill them!!! Then we can look at the Dalish clan we meet in Origins. Zathrian loses his wife/daughter to humans so he decides to curse all of the humans irregardless of whether or not they were directly involved. 

As far as I know Rivain still has influences from the Qunari occupation so they're almost as bad as the regular Qunari. Horrible stuff that.

We know absolutely NOTHING about the Chasind. So I suppose that's your little "saving grace" as you can claim since we don't know anything about them that they are somehow morally superior.

Now for Fereldan. The city elf origin indicates that the nobility decide to rape elves whenever they want, because their elves, no one cares about elves! Right? RIGHT?! We then have Loghain authroizing the selling of those very same elves to Tevinter slavers. Fun stuff that.

zMataxa wrote...


PS. The Qunari is an awesome discussion piece for collective vs indivdual.

Which is really the only reason I jumped in. I still maintain that each society has it's pros/cons, and neither are inherently "evil". The only reason you would think so was because that sometime in your childhood you were "brainwashed" into thinking that your culture is inherently superior. 

I also still maintain that the Qunari are an analogy to certain world powers that seek to impose their way of life on others.  If it is "evil" for the Qunari to do so, is it still evil for the real world analogy to do so? If the real world analogy is imposing individualism is that "evil"? It's definitely wrong, but both sides can come up with rationalizations that somehow make it right. 

Modifié par Myrkale, 08 octobre 2013 - 09:26 .

[Star fury]

Myrkale wrote...
Well let's look at the Dalish Origin. Tamlen: Hey, there's some humans over there! Let's kill them!!! Then we can look at the Dalish clan we meet in Origins. Zathrian loses his wife/daughter to humans so he decides to curse all of the humans irregardless of whether or not they were directly involved. 

Both Tamlen and Zathrian are extremists, generally the Dalish are not bad, they also resent humans for reason. You should've chosen Tevinter.

Myrkale wrote...
Now for Fereldan. The city elf origin indicates that the nobility decide to rape elves whenever they want, because their elves, no one cares about elves! Right? RIGHT?! We then have Loghain authroizing the selling of those very same elves to Tevinter slavers. Fun stuff that. 

Raping elves was criminal and there was a riot in the alienage. Also Loghain authorising slave trading was considered high crime in Ferelden and is the most important topic on the Landsmeet, you can basically win Landsmeet if you press it.






 

[Dermain]

[quote]Star fury wrote...

[quote]Myrkale wrote...
Well let's look at the Dalish Origin. Tamlen: Hey, there's some humans over there! Let's kill them!!! Then we can look at the Dalish clan we meet in Origins. Zathrian loses his wife/daughter to humans so he decides to curse all of the humans irregardless of whether or not they were directly involved. [/quote]

Both Tamlen and Zathrian are extremists, generally the Dalish are not bad, they also resent humans for reason. You should've chosen Tevinter.[/quote]

The Dalish are not bad? We have met two isolated tribes, both of which have contained extremists. We have also met Velana and here sub-group of extremists (who were dead before we could meet them). It's not hard to reason that there may be far more Dalish extremists who wish to kill humans. 

I would have chosen Tevinter if it had been among the options presented to me to prove examples of moral inferiority.

[quote]Myrkale wrote...
Now for Fereldan. The city elf origin indicates that the nobility decide to rape elves whenever they want, because their elves, no one cares about elves! Right? RIGHT?! We then have Loghain authroizing the selling of those very same elves to Tevinter slavers. Fun stuff that. [/quote]
Raping elves was criminal and there was a riot in the alienage. Also Loghain authorising slave trading was considered high crime in Ferelden and is the most important topic on the Landsmeet, you can basically win Landsmeet if you press it.

[/quote]

There was a riot in the Alienage over  the raping yes. What happened the elves in said riot? They were slaughtered wholesale, or do you forget the Orphanage quest? The selling into slavery may be "high crime", but it still occured. 

[Xilizhra]

Well let's look at the Dalish Origin. Tamlen: Hey, there's some humans over there! Let's kill them!!! Then we can look at the Dalish clan we meet in Origins. Zathrian loses his wife/daughter to humans so he decides to curse all of the humans irregardless of whether or not they were directly involved.

Both are actions of individuals and not holy wars that kill thousands if not millions. I said mass murder, not individual murder or limited curse spreading (especially since none of the other Dalish would have been behind Zathrian).

As far as I know Rivain still has influences from the Qunari occupation so they're almost as bad as the regular Qunari. Horrible stuff that.

Some of it. Other parts of it have seers, for instance.

Now for Fereldan. The city elf origin indicates that the nobility decide to rape elves whenever they want, because their elves, no one cares about elves! Right? RIGHT?! We then have Loghain authroizing the selling of those very same elves to Tevinter slavers. Fun stuff that.

Why are you calling up random bad things without regard to whether or not they fit my criteria?

There was a riot in the Alienage over the raping yes. What happened the elves in said riot? They were slaughtered wholesale, or do you forget the Orphanage quest? The selling into slavery may be "high crime", but it still occured.

The wholesale slaughtering was performed by a known criminal, keep in mind.

[Dermain]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well let's look at the Dalish Origin. Tamlen: Hey, there's some humans over there! Let's kill them!!! Then we can look at the Dalish clan we meet in Origins. Zathrian loses his wife/daughter to humans so he decides to curse all of the humans irregardless of whether or not they were directly involved.

Both are actions of individuals and not holy wars that kill thousands if not millions. I said mass murder, not individual murder or limited curse spreading (especially since none of the other Dalish would have been behind Zathrian).

And we know this how?

Xilizhra wrote...

As far as I know Rivain still has influences from the Qunari occupation so they're almost as bad as the regular Qunari. Horrible stuff that.

Some of it. Other parts of it have seers, for instance.

They're kind of dead now.

Xilizhra wrote...

Now for Fereldan. The city elf origin indicates that the nobility decide to rape elves whenever they want, because their elves, no one cares about elves! Right? RIGHT?! We then have Loghain authroizing the selling of those very same elves to Tevinter slavers. Fun stuff that.

Why are you calling up random bad things without regard to whether or not they fit my criteria?

If you wish to hold such a high esteem for the supposed morality of humanity, nothing will ever prove you wrong. 

Xilizhra wrote...

There was a riot in the Alienage over the raping yes. What happened the elves in said riot? They were slaughtered wholesale, or do you forget the Orphanage quest? The selling into slavery may be "high crime", but it still occured.

The wholesale slaughtering was performed by a known criminal, keep in mind.

A known criminal? The entirity of the city guard of Denerim are known criminals? Well I suppose the hope for morality in Fereldan is pretty much dead when those that are supposed to "keep the peace" are all known criminals.

[Xilizhra]

And we know this how?

Because his revenge was starting to kill his own clan.

They're kind of dead now.

Alas for the Chantry's actions.

A known criminal? The entirity of the city guard of Denerim are known criminals? Well I suppose the hope for morality in Fereldan is pretty much dead when those that are supposed to "keep the peace" are all known criminals.

Sergeant Kylon actually brings it up that the guard has a lot of crappy applicants, and that Howe's men are the worst of the lot... those who purged the Alienage.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm pretty sure just about all of Rivain has Seers. Even the Qunari.

[Porenferser]

I'd like to be able to put Qunbots properly in their place in DA:I.

Me too.
As in, helping them reign.

I'd prefer to tear Tevinter a new one.

[Vit246]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm pretty sure just about all of Rivain has Seers. Even the Qunari.

Rivain has Seers. Qunari have Saarebas.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In Rivain, the Qunari settlements still have Seers. The "Qunari" of Rivain are different from the normal Qunari. They don't follow the teachings of the Qun as strictly as mainstream Qunari. To the Ariqun in Par Vollen, they'd count as basalit'an, not Qunari.

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

In Rivain, the Qunari settlements still have Seers. The "Qunari" of Rivain are different from the normal Qunari. They don't follow the teachings of the Qun as strictly as mainstream Qunari. To the Ariqun in Par Vollen, they'd count as basalit'an, not Qunari.

Where's your source for this?  I'd love to read it in context.  I've  thought all along that both Andrastian and Qun belief would be significantly different in Rivain due to being more or less allowed to blend with existing cultural traditions, given real world patterns.

[Dermain]

Xilizhra wrote...

And we know this how?

Because his revenge was starting to kill his own clan.

You have not addressed the rest of the Dalish "extremists" that only want to punish humans. Zathrian also wanted the curse to continue regardless of the harm it was doing to his clan, unless the player made him do otherwise.

Xilizhra wrote...

A known criminal? The entirity of the city guard of Denerim are known criminals? Well I suppose the hope for morality in Fereldan is pretty much dead when those that are supposed to "keep the peace" are all known criminals.

Sergeant Kylon actually brings it up that the guard has a lot of crappy applicants, and that Howe's men are the worst of the lot... those who purged the Alienage.

Do we know that is was specifically Howe's men that purged the Alienage? No, we don't. We know that the Denerim guard, of which Howe's men consisted of purged the Alienage. We also know that if the city elf killed Vaughn in the origin that the guard had plans to purge the Alienage anyways. Kylon does not say that the "crappy applicants" are denied either, which would have happened in a "moral" organization.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, we don't know it was Howe's men who purged the Alienage. Nothing in the lore even suggests it. On the contrary, the lore suggests that such purges are all too common.

[LobselVith8]

Myrkale wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Because his revenge was starting to kill his own clan.

You have not addressed the rest of the Dalish "extremists" that only want to punish humans. Zathrian also wanted the curse to continue regardless of the harm it was doing to his clan, unless the player made him do otherwise.

I don't think the other members of the clan would have the same mindset as Zathrian to get behind his actions, especially when their own were suffering. The humans Zathrian initially focused the curse on were the ones who murdered his son and raped his daughter. I understand that the curse did continue with their descendants, but he wanted to punish that respective tribe of humans because of the horrors they inflicted on his children.

Myrkale wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sergeant Kylon actually brings it up that the guard has a lot of crappy applicants, and that Howe's men are the worst of the lot... those who purged the Alienage.

Do we know that is was specifically Howe's men that purged the Alienage? No, we don't. We know that the Denerim guard, of which Howe's men consisted of purged the Alienage. We also know that if the city elf killed Vaughn in the origin that the guard had plans to purge the Alienage anyways. Kylon does not say that the "crappy applicants" are denied either, which would have happened in a "moral" organization. 

The purges of the Alienages are horrible, and I agree that it's not limited to Howe's men, but I think it's fairly understandable that some people are strongly opposed to the Qunari when they seem intent on conquering Thedas and imposing the Qun, especially given their use of qamek.