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[EmperorSahlertz]

Aren't you advocating the Dalish invading the Dales and imposing their culture on the area?.....

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aren't you advocating the Dalish invading the Dales and imposing their culture on the area?.....

I advocate the People reclaiming their kingdom from the Orlesian Empire; having a homeland where the Elvhen have religious freedom to worship their gods and restore their culture, since the Chantry has outlawed it in the Andrastian kingdoms. Remind me what this has to do with my statement about why some people dislike the Qunari?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

In Rivain, the Qunari settlements still have Seers. The "Qunari" of Rivain are different from the normal Qunari. They don't follow the teachings of the Qun as strictly as mainstream Qunari. To the Ariqun in Par Vollen, they'd count as basalit'an, not Qunari.

Where's your source for this?  I'd love to read it in context.  I've  thought all along that both Andrastian and Qun belief would be significantly different in Rivain due to being more or less allowed to blend with existing cultural traditions, given real world patterns.

Well World of Thedas' page on Rivain says "The influence of the Qun, if not absolute adhereence to it's teachings, is present throughout Rivain, getting stronger as one heads north towards Kont-aar."

I think there was also a couple comments buried somewhere in the forums a few years back about how the Qunari don't consider Rivaini Qunari "true" Qunari like themselves, even if they do respect them more than any other bas.

But most tellingly two of the codex entries in DA 2 (the "Saarebas" and "Qunari" ones I think) are cited as being from "the writings of the seer of Kont-aar."

Also the codex entry on Tal'Vashoth is written by Genetivi and he explains how he was once lost in a Tevinter ruin in northern Rivain, chased by Tal'Vashoth and later took refuge in a village of humans and elves who considered themselves Qunari. This is apparently where he learned that Qunari means "follower of the Qun" rather than "giant horned person." And the matriarch who taught him this was known only as "Seer."

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 octobre 2013 - 02:08 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Aren't you advocating the Dalish invading the Dales and imposing their culture on the area?.....

I advocate the People reclaiming their kingdom from the Orlesian Empire; having a homeland where the Elvhen have religious freedom to worship their gods and restore their culture, since the Chantry has outlawed it in the Andrastian kingdoms. Remind me what this has to do with my statement about why some people dislike the Qunari?

In short: Yes, you are advocating just that.

You are blaming the Qunari for having an expansionistic culture, and imposing it on others. Yet you advocate for the Dalish to do exactly that in other threads.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 octobre 2013 - 01:22 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

In Rivain, the Qunari settlements still have Seers. The "Qunari" of Rivain are different from the normal Qunari. They don't follow the teachings of the Qun as strictly as mainstream Qunari. To the Ariqun in Par Vollen, they'd count as basalit'an, not Qunari.

Where's your source for this?  I'd love to read it in context.  I've  thought all along that both Andrastian and Qun belief would be significantly different in Rivain due to being more or less allowed to blend with existing cultural traditions, given real world patterns.

Well World of Thedas' page on Rivain says "The influence of the Qun, if not absolute adhereence to it's teachings, is present throughout Rivain, getting stronger as one heads north towards Kont-aar."

I think there was also a couple comments buried somewhere in the forums a fear years back about how the Qunari don't consider Rivaini Qunari "true" Qunari like themselves, even if they do respect them more than any other bas.

But most tellingly two of the codex entries in DA 2 (the "Saarebas" and "Qunari" ones I think) are cited as being from "the writings of the seer of Kont-aar."

Also the codex entry on Tal'Vashoth is written by Genetivi and he explains how he was once lost in a Tevinter ruin in northern Rivain, chased by Tal'Vashoth and later took refuge in a village of humans and elves who considered themselves Qunari. This is apparently where he learned that Qunari means "follower of the Qun" rather than "giant horned person." And the matriarch who taught him this was known only as "Seer."

Kont-aar is the only place in Rivain where true Qunari are allowed to live. So even though the Qunari influence is strong throughout Rivain, they aren't being true Qunari. So only Kont-aar have a Qunari population, and I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't 100% Qunari living there.

[The Hierophant]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

In Rivain, the Qunari settlements still have Seers. The "Qunari" of Rivain are different from the normal Qunari. They don't follow the teachings of the Qun as strictly as mainstream Qunari. To the Ariqun in Par Vollen, they'd count as basalit'an, not Qunari.

Where's your source for this?  I'd love to read it in context.  I've  thought all along that both Andrastian and Qun belief would be significantly different in Rivain due to being more or less allowed to blend with existing cultural traditions, given real world patterns.

Well World of Thedas' page on Rivain says "The influence of the Qun, if not absolute adhereence to it's teachings, is present throughout Rivain, getting stronger as one heads north towards Kont-aar."

I think there was also a couple comments buried somewhere in the forums a fear years back about how the Qunari don't consider Rivaini Qunari "true" Qunari like themselves, even if they do respect them more than any other bas.

But most tellingly two of the codex entries in DA 2 (the "Saarebas" and "Qunari" ones I think) are cited as being from "the writings of the seer of Kont-aar."

Also the codex entry on Tal'Vashoth is written by Genetivi and he explains how he was once lost in a Tevinter ruin in northern Rivain, chased by Tal'Vashoth and later took refuge in a village of humans and elves who considered themselves Qunari. This is apparently where he learned that Qunari means "follower of the Qun" rather than "giant horned person." And the matriarch who taught him this was known only as "Seer."

Interesting. So the Qunari don't consider all the Rivaini converts as true followers of the Qun, and would the inhabitants of Kont-aar be considered basalit'an too?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I advocate the People reclaiming their kingdom from the Orlesian Empire; having a homeland where the Elvhen have religious freedom to worship their gods and restore their culture, since the Chantry has outlawed it in the Andrastian kingdoms. Remind me what this has to do with my statement about why some people dislike the Qunari?

In short: Yes, you are advocating just that.

You are blaming the Qunari for having an expansionistic culture, and imposing it on others. Yet you advocate for the Dalish to do exactly that in other threads.

Actually, I was addressing why some people - in general - dislike the Qunari.

And the Dalish having one single place in all the continent where they would be safe (i.e. their homeland) isn't quite the same thing as the Qunari trying to conquer and convert the whole of Thedas, to the point of violating the minds of the people with their gamek (which almost happened to Isabela).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Hierophant wrote...
]Interesting. So the Qunari don't consider all the Rivaini converts as true followers of the Qun, and would the inhabitants of Kont-aar be considered basalit'an too?

That's a good question. I've gone back and forth thinking about it and I don't think it's entirely clear. The presence of a seer would suggest not. Plus Petrine refers to the Qunari as Kont-aar's leaders' "allies in the Northern Passage" rather than "superiors" or something. Still, Kont-aar is described as "the only peaceful Qunari settlement in the mainland" or something in other places.

[Vit246]

Morocco Mole wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
You are blaming the Qunari for having an expansionistic culture, and imposing it on others. Yet you advocate for the Dalish to do exactly that in other threads.

Look my friend. I am sure those humans would be glad to abandon their land and homes that has been theirs for generations for the elves.

We're talking about the Dales that was first settled by the elves and then stolen from them by Orlais and being used as a Winter Palace for the Empress. Nobody else is there.

[The Hierophant]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
]Interesting. So the Qunari don't consider all the Rivaini converts as true followers of the Qun, and would the inhabitants of Kont-aar be considered basalit'an too?

That's a good question. I've gone back and forth thinking about it and I don't think it's entirely clear. The presence of a seer would suggest not. Plus Petrine refers to the Qunari as Kont-aar's leaders' "allies in the Northern Passage" rather than "superiors" or something. Still, Kont-aar is described as "the only peaceful Qunari settlement in the mainland" or something in other places.

The presence of a seer in the north makes me wonder if she's mostly one in name only, when you consider the Qunari's strong influence there, and their pov on mages. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 09 octobre 2013 - 01:53 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Vit246 wrote...

We're talking about the Dales that was first settled by the elves and then stolen from them by Orlais and being used as a Winter Palace for the Empress. Nobody else is there.

What? Of course there is. The Winter Palace is a single building in Halamshiral, that's all that is used by the Orlesian nobility. I think there might even be entirely human cities that have cropped up there since the fall of the Dales. Although we don't know where the border was in the old days, I would suspect it was near Montsimmard. Otherwise the elven army that watched as it burned would have needed to go pretty far out of their own territory. Today there are two cities closer to Halamshiral than Montismmard.

The Hierophant wrote...

The presence of a seer in the north makes me wonder if she's mostly one in name only, when you consider the Qunari's strong influence there, and their pov on mages. 

I think in Rivain, the Qunari perspective on mages is cancelled out by the Rivaini perspective on mages. They are said to be unwilling to part with their seers.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 octobre 2013 - 01:56 .

[LobselVith8]

Morocco Mole wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You are blaming the Qunari for having an expansionistic culture, and imposing it on others. Yet you advocate for the Dalish to do exactly that in other threads.

Look my friend. I am sure those humans would be glad to abandon their land and homes that has been theirs for generations for the elves.

There seems to be an elven rebellion in the Dales, and an independent Dales could be a place where elves aren't killed in purges en mass, have religious freedom to worship their gods, and aren't hunted by templars.

[Vit246]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

We're talking about the Dales that was first settled by the elves and then stolen from them by Orlais and being used as a Winter Palace for the Empress. Nobody else is there.

What? Of course there is. The Winter Palace is a single building in Halamshiral, that's all that is used by the Orlesian nobility. I think there might even be entirely human cities that have cropped up there since the fall of the Dales. Although we don't know where the border was in the old days, I would suspect it was near Montsimmard. Otherwise the elven army that watched as it burned would have been pretty far out of their own territory. Today there are two cities closer to Halamshiral than Montismmard.

Well, there are those Orlesian cities along the Imperial Highway and appearing to "border" the Dales. We don't know much about the deep interior though.

Modifié par Vit246, 09 octobre 2013 - 02:05 .

[LobselVith8]

Morocco Mole wrote...

So you support the elves driving people from, by this point, their homes as much as it was theirs?

I support the elves reclaiming their homeland from Orlesian occupation so that they have one sanctuary in all of Thedas. I'm not certain how you can equate that with the Qunari's goal of conquering all of Thedas, and forcing everyone to submit to the Qun - even to the extent of violating the minds of people to coerce them.

[The Hierophant]

back on topic - After MoTA i think people should be more worried about being clowned by one.

[LobselVith8]

Morocco Mole wrote...

You are forcing a rather large population of people to evacuate their homes and "go somewhere else" so the Dalish can conquer their land. Its not the same completely. But awfully close.

The Qunari want to take over Thedas and force everyone to submit to the Qun. I don't even see how it's "awfully close" to the concept of the elves reclaiming their homeland from the Orlesian Empire.

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

So you support the elves driving people from, by this point, their homes as much as it was theirs?

I support the elves reclaiming their homeland from Orlesian occupation so that they have one sanctuary in all of Thedas. I'm not certain how you can equate that with the Qunari's goal of conquering all of Thedas, and forcing everyone to submit to the Qun - even to the extent of violating the minds of people to coerce them.

Can you call it your homeland if you haven't lived there for 700 years?  Do the Orlesians who have lived there for those 700 years have no right to call it their homeland?

[Medhia Nox]

I think the point is LobselVith8 - you know that just writing: "And they were given back their homeland where rainbows shine and hala skip through the meadows." is terrible storytelling.  I doubt even you would be satisfied with such hackneyed writing.

So - knowing there's only one way they could ever get it back - I think you are just a touch disingenuous and have daggers in your smile.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 octobre 2013 - 02:11 .

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I support the elves reclaiming their homeland from Orlesian occupation so that they have one sanctuary in all of Thedas. I'm not certain how you can equate that with the Qunari's goal of conquering all of Thedas, and forcing everyone to submit to the Qun - even to the extent of violating the minds of people to coerce them.

Can you call it your homeland if you haven't lived there for 700 years?  Do the Orlesians who have lived there for those 700 years have no right to call it their homeland? 

When the Orlesian Empire forcibly removed their people and forced them into ghettos to live generations in servitude, outlawing their religion and stripping them of their culture, with the others who refused to submit living out their lives on the run from the templars...

[Vit246]

Actually, truth be told, I don't really care what the Dalish want. Its the Age of Humans now.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I think the point is LobselVith8 - you know that just writing: "And they were given back their homeland where rainbows shine and hala skip through the meadows." is terrible storytelling.  I doubt even you would be satisfied with such hackneyed writing.

A kingdom where the elves have religious freedom and aren't limited to servitude or mass executions at human hands in purges =/= an idyllic paradise where nothing goes wrong.

Medhia Nox wrote...

So - knowing there's only one way they could ever get it back - I think you are just a touch disingenuous and have daggers in your smile.

Reclaiming the Dales isn't the same, or similar to, the Qunari's plans for Thedas. And to be fair to The Hierophant, we can take this discussion to a seperate thread, since we're getting off-topic.