508 réponses à ce sujet

[Vit246]

The Hierophant wrote...

back on topic - After MoTA i think people should be more worried about being clowned by one.

I never want to endure another Tallis again.

[Medhia Nox]

@LobselVith8: You're dodging the points I'm making - so I'll be more direct.

1) You claim you just want it given to them. You know it being given to them will NEVER happen in the story. Mainly - because it's terrible writing.

2) Yet, since you "must" know this - you still claim you're all about peace. I think you're being duplicitous. I think you would love a great Dalish/City Elf bloody revolution that carved the Dales out of Orlais once again.

The Spanish call it Reconquista" - it's alright to admit you've got a violent heart that wants a fictional group you identify with to achieve the ends you think they should strive for.

But I don't think you can really have any meaningful conversations about the elves until you seem less dishonest about how you want it achieved.

Hence - I believe - comparison, right or wrong, with other factions who chose violence as their mode of action are not entirely incorrect.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 octobre 2013 - 02:20 .

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I support the elves reclaiming their homeland from Orlesian occupation so that they have one sanctuary in all of Thedas. I'm not certain how you can equate that with the Qunari's goal of conquering all of Thedas, and forcing everyone to submit to the Qun - even to the extent of violating the minds of people to coerce them.

Can you call it your homeland if you haven't lived there for 700 years?  Do the Orlesians who have lived there for those 700 years have no right to call it their homeland? 

When the Orlesian Empire forcibly removed their people and forced them into ghettos to live generations in servitude, outlawing their religion and stripping them of their culture, with the others who refused to submit living out their lives on the run from the templars...

700 years ago.  These people have not done that.  These people and their forefathers for centuries have done nothing but live out their lives.  Live there and die there for centuries longer than the Dalish themselves did.

[LobselVith8]

Like I said on the previous page, we should move this Dalish discussion to another thread, in respect to the people like The Hierophant who want to get the thread back on-topic.

[Mox Ruuga]

The Hierophant wrote...

back on topic - After MoTA i think people should be more worried about being clowned by one.

Hopefully not a sign of things to come? From what I've read, the "can't argue with Qunbots" thing reached new heights (or lows). Hopefully it was more of a case of a writer's pet character going too far, and not a sign of increasingly out of control Qun bias among the writing team...

[Laughing_Man]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

back on topic - After MoTA i think people should be more worried about being clowned by one.

Hopefully not a sign of things to come? From what I've read, the "can't argue with Qunbots" thing reached new heights (or lows). Hopefully it was more of a case of a writer's pet character going too far, and not a sign of increasingly out of control Qun bias among the writing team...

Or it may be that the Qun itself became a writer's pet religion.
I hope not, bioware are usually better than this.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:36 .

[Mox Ruuga]

There was a fan of collectivism in the Mass Effect writing team as well, even a brief glance at the glowing descriptions of Turian culture shows that. But they never let that creation turn into some infuriating Marysuetopia that is relentlessly pushed on the player, turning a previously opinionated and fiercely independent Warden/Hawke into an appeasing, spineless fool.

[wolfhowwl]

I just finished playing Mark of the Assassin for the first time.

That was sickening.

[Han Shot First]

I support there being dialogue options mocking the Qun.

A respectful tone wouldn't make sense for some characters, particularly a Tal Vashoth Inquisitor who is viewed as an apostate by the Qunbots. The Tal Vashoth should have an option to revel in that apostate status and mock the Qun at any available opportunity.

[Star fury]

wolfhowwl wrote...

I just finished playing Mark of the Assassin for the first time.

That was sickening.

LMAO. Not exactly an effect that biower wanted from that DLC and introducing Tallis as a "qunari".

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You know, it's not like you can't tell Tallis the Qun is wrong. And your companions aren't shy about letting her know their feelings either. Fenris especially gets in a couple unreturned jabs.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 octobre 2013 - 07:09 .

[Sharn01]

Myrkale wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

This is not actually true, your race and gender limit what roles are available to fill regardless of your capabilities. The kossith qunari, I will use that name for a lack of a better term, do not actually consider non kossith qunari as true qunari, they give them a different name and they are not seen as full members of their society.

This is false.

Its true, only kossith qunari are allowed in the army as an example, and only male ones at that. 

The kossith qunari do not refer to non kossith qunari as qunari, this was stated by David Gaider here on the forums, it was brought up during the debate in how to refer to kossith qunari, and was one of his main argument as to why they should just be referred to as qunari.

Nope, you're wrong.

David Gaider wrote...
If there's a need to separate the Qunari who aren't members of their race, and "viddathari" isn't considered useful, an adjective is added (like "elven Qunari"). For members of their race which aren't followers of the Qun, it's "Tal-Vashoth".

Is this confusing? To some people who like having a handy identifier it is, but the Qunari aren't really interested in arranging their names to make things convenient for other cultures. Their names are exact classifications, and are incredibly important to them-- even Sten doesn't tell you the name that he uses among the Qunari. If you'll recall, he says that Sten is the name you may use because it'll be easier for you.

Bolded the specific relevant sentence and underlined the emphasis. If there is a need to seperate, which there usually isn't, the Qunari will use "viddathari". If "viddathari" is not sufficient they will further clarify, but again there is no need for it. There is also no supporting information for not letting other races that follow the Qun into the military.

I take back my statement then, I was incorrect about the naming. 

I do stand by jobs being limited by race, if qunari feel that gender is a limiter for what jobs you are capable of fulfilling, race would be even moreso.  I am sure female qunari, the horned kind, are as strong or stronger then human males, why would they allow someone so small and weak into the military when they can give them a job better suited to their capabilities would be their logic.

If they veiw their race as superior leaders, and I am sure they do, they probably would not allow other races into the highest leaderhsip positions in the other areas of the qun as well. 

Modifié par Sharn01, 09 octobre 2013 - 09:23 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Physical structure might not be the only factor. Qunari might see men more psychologically predisposed towards warfare, thus making men the better soldiers. We don't know the reasons for the job limitations imposed on the genders, so we can't really do much else than speculate.

[Rhiens VI]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No one says that you shouldn't be able to disagree with Qun. Some are merely pointing out, that to show intolerance of different ideas, is not something amicable, and shouldn't be cultivated in any medium.

So it is ok to spill rivers of blood in the game, but it's not ok to  "show intolerance to ideas"? 

Are you serious?

It's called roleplaying. Playing a role. I want an option to play a role of someone who actively shows intolerance to different ideas, including the Qun, thank you.

[Medhia Nox]

@Rhiens VI: I don't disagree with the spirit of your statements.

However - the forced Combat Puzzle Solution - is part of the "gameplay morality" and cannot truly be considered during a discussion about morality. Because games tend to pander to the lowest form of moral understanding - violence is often seen as the only viable form of conflict resolution - all others being "boring".

That being said - there's murder knife scenarios and several other moments where the storyline asks whether you are willing to kill. I think those are certainly fair game.

However - it's often either: "Kill the bastard." or "I'm so enlightened I let murderers go." Neither of which is ultimately appealing to me.

I wouldn't kill a single person in an RPG if I could get away with it - but that doesn't mean I want rapists, murderers and psychopath mages running the streets.

[Beerfish]

Vit246 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

back on topic - After MoTA i think people should be more worried about being clowned by one.

I never want to endure another Tallis again.

I think Tallis was a good character, they just made a major gaff in the writing of that dlc not allowing the player to take what for 50% of the players would be an obvious course of action.

[Vit246]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No one says that you shouldn't be able to disagree with Qun. Some are merely pointing out, that to show intolerance of different ideas, is not something amicable, and shouldn't be cultivated in any medium.

You are aware that the Qunari are all about showing "intolerance of different ideas", right?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No one says that you shouldn't be able to disagree with Qun. Some are merely pointing out, that to show intolerance of different ideas, is not something amicable, and shouldn't be cultivated in any medium.

You are aware that the Qunari are all about showing "intolerance of different ideas", right?

Yes. And?

[Medhia Nox]

@Vit246: There's a difference between a fictional race of beings showing intolerance - and real people so calcified in their world view that they're totally uninterested in exploring artistic concepts and commentaries.

Opposing the Qunari is not the same as rejecting the idea of the Qunari based on a lack of imagination and an unwillingness to try to understand something that isn't all about "I".

Perhaps people on the BSN cannot disseminate between real intolerance - and fictional concepts - I dunno.  But people here certainly treat the Qunari as if they were real beings and react as if they're actually fighting some form of real oppression.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 octobre 2013 - 03:31 .

[Beerfish]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No one says that you shouldn't be able to disagree with Qun. Some are merely pointing out, that to show intolerance of different ideas, is not something amicable, and shouldn't be cultivated in any medium.

You are aware that the Qunari are all about showing "intolerance of different ideas", right?

Yes. And?

Good to see that you have come around and acknowledge the massive weakness in their thinking and actions. 

[Beerfish]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Vit246: There's a difference between a fictional race of beings showing intolerance - and real people so calcified in their world view that they're totally uninterested in exploring artistic concepts and commentaries.

Opposing the Qunari is not the same as rejecting the idea of the Qunari based on a lack of imagination and an unwillingness to try to understand something that isn't all about "I".

Perhaps people on the BSN cannot disseminate between real intolerance - and fictional concepts - I dunno.  But people here certainly treat the Qunari as if they were real beings and react as if they're actually fighting some form of real oppression.

That's what roleplaying is all about these are rpg games so when you play them you look at situaitons and think of how you are going to react to the options presented.  You might relate to in game things to real world situations past or present, that is pretty natural.

[Navasha]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Vit246: There's a difference between a fictional race of beings showing intolerance - and real people so calcified in their world view that they're totally uninterested in exploring artistic concepts and commentaries.

Opposing the Qunari is not the same as rejecting the idea of the Qunari based on a lack of imagination and an unwillingness to try to understand something that isn't all about "I".

Perhaps people on the BSN cannot disseminate between real intolerance - and fictional concepts - I dunno.  But people here certainly treat the Qunari as if they were real beings and react as if they're actually fighting some form of real oppression.

Maybe I am wrong but is there any point in the games where we meet an obvious slaver and don't have the option to either outright attack or blatantly tell them that slavery is wrong?

Are you saying that the writers should portray slavery in a more favorable light and not allow players to outright attack them?   I mean it is just a difference of opinion.

I think some people fail to realize that many people (myself included) don't view the Qun as any better than slavers.    It is a huge disconnect that I can disagree and attack any slaver in the games because of their beliefs, and yet the games prevent you from doing the same to the Qunari who are allowed to endlessly preach their belief that enslaving the world is a good thing. 

[Han Shot First]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No one says that you shouldn't be able to disagree with Qun. Some are merely pointing out, that to show intolerance of different ideas, is not something amicable, and shouldn't be cultivated in any medium.

You are aware that the Qunari are all about showing "intolerance of different ideas", right?

Yes. And?

So why shouldn't a player character have the option to push back when confronted with it?

It doesn't make sense for player characters who are atheist, agnostic, worshippers of the Old Gods, or devout Andrastians to meekly submit when a Qunbot starts preaching or putting down the beliefs (or lack thereof) of the player character.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:09 .