508 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@Beerfish: Actually - how I would deal with a situation is not why I RP at all.

Yes, everything must ultimately relate to how I perceive the world - but, for example, I believe that drug use (including alcohol and cigarettes) and promiscuity are base degenerate acts perpetrated by people that don't have the mental capacity to deal with their issues...

That doesn't meant I couldn't play a hedonist.

I do not play RPGs to impose my world view - I play it to explore other world views.

@Navahsa: I believe America has a form of indentured debt slavery that is indoctrinates it's citizens in from college (and their parents by sending them dangerous warning about paying for college) - while banks devour your money.

I do not believe stating that everything you don't like is slavery - makes it so.

[Beerfish]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Beerfish: Actually - how I would deal with a situation is not why I RP at all.

Yes, everything must ultimately relate to how I perceive the world - but, for example, I believe that drug use (including alcohol and cigarettes) and promiscuity are base degenerate acts perpetrated by people that don't have the mental capacity to deal with their issues...

That doesn't meant I couldn't play a hedonist.

I do not play RPGs to impose my world view - I play it to explore other world views.

 

Exactly, which to me is going counter to your comment about most bsners not being able to differentiate between real world things vs things in a game.

[Medhia Nox]

I'm not sure I follow.

If I couldn't differentiate that I am not supporting the hedonism I explore - then I wouldn't be able to play a hedonist.

However - just because I wouldn't likely jump for joy to embrace the Qun (couldn't really say for sure) - doesn't mean I couldn't explore the possibility of growing up in it and experiencing the merits of the tradition.

I truly don't understand how that's not understanding that the Qun is not something I "must" take a moral stand against?

I tend not to put too much energy in fighting fictional things I find wrong outside of the actual game.

I'd prefer to put my attention toward real world abuses and fight those.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 octobre 2013 - 07:14 .

[Wulfram]

The Qunari unquestionably do practice slavery. I mean, the status of the general population of believers is debatable so we'll put that aside. But the people who refuse to convert and are turned into mindless labourers in the mines are slaves, that's not arguable.

[Medhia Nox]

@Wulfram: The question is - why do you look at it with your modern sensibilities?

Totally ignoring the absolute fact that slavery is at an all time high in the real world currently ...

This is supposed to represent a more pragmatic time in a world where physical labor is the primary source of getting things done.

Tell me - do you go on history boards and hate... well, EVERY country in Earth's past?

[Wulfram]

I don't have any other sensibilities to look at it. Not that opposition to slavery is at all alien to Dragon Age. Outside of Tevinter it's taboo enough that a polite fiction is at least required to cloak it.

On the history boards I've read I don't recall encountering apologists for slavery, but the fictional nature of the Qun seems to make people want to justify them. And anyway, I find chatting about fictional societies more fun.

Modifié par Wulfram, 09 octobre 2013 - 07:52 .

[CronoDragoon]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Wulfram: The question is - why do you look at it with your modern sensibilities?

It's not strictly a modern sensibility, especially when cultures within the DA world support this supposed "modern" sensibility. Moreover, DA as a series invites you to utilize your personal morality to make decisions in the games. OP is simply asking for this to be more fully developed when dealing with Qun logic.

Totally ignoring the absolute fact that slavery is at an all time high in the real world currently ...

And the point you want to make with this "fact" is...? That because slavery is abundant we shouldn't argue against it? Don't follow. Is this some vague attempt at hypocrisy exposure? Because hypocrisy doesn't work like that.

This is supposed to represent a more pragmatic time in a world where physical labor is the primary source of getting things done.

I didn't realize physical labor and slavery were the same thing. They certainly aren't in the Dragon Age world.

Tell me - do you go on history boards and hate... well, EVERY country in Earth's past?

I don't see many people trying to stick up for 18th century plantation owners, do you?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 09 octobre 2013 - 08:06 .

[Mox Ruuga]

I for one find it puzzling that these Qun fans are trying to muzzle criticism and dislike of such a controversial creed, a fictional one at that.

This is a society that practises mind rape as a common form of governmental policy, but when one of us more liberty minded DA fans points inconvenient little details like that out, the response is to make bizarre comparisons to "slavery being at an all time high in the present world", or virulent ranting against the US. Or to accuse us of wanting "racist options", or simply dismissing us as intolerant.

The point of this thread was to beg Bioware to give those of us who have no tolerance for mind rape better conversation options in future DA games, starting with the next one. Those of you who love the current options of being able to

a) admire the Qun
be confused at the Qun
c) meekly get insulted by Qunbots

will undoubtedly still have those options. 

Modifié par Mox Ruuga, 09 octobre 2013 - 08:03 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Beerfish wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No one says that you shouldn't be able to disagree with Qun. Some are merely pointing out, that to show intolerance of different ideas, is not something amicable, and shouldn't be cultivated in any medium.

You are aware that the Qunari are all about showing "intolerance of different ideas", right?

Yes. And?

Good to see that you have come around and acknowledge the massive weakness in their thinking and actions. 

I have never once claimed that the Qunari was flawless. I defend them, because people are ignorant and attack the Qunari, at points they know nothing about, and try to pass off their opinions as absolute truths. If people had the braincells to rub together, then they would be able to see the points in the Qun worth striking. But alas, this is BSN, and BSN'ers will never change.

[sandalisthemaker]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
No one says that you shouldn't be able to disagree with Qun. Some are merely pointing out, that to show intolerance of different ideas, is not something amicable, and shouldn't be cultivated in any medium.

You are aware that the Qunari are all about showing "intolerance of different ideas", right?

Yes. And?

Good to see that you have come around and acknowledge the massive weakness in their thinking and actions. 

I have never once claimed that the Qunari was flawless. I defend them, because people are ignorant and attack the Qunari, at points they know nothing about, and try to pass off their opinions as absolute truths. If people had the braincells to rub together, then they would be able to see the points in the Qun worth striking. But alas, this is BSN, and BSN'ers will never change.

So, then, you're an expert on the Qun?

[Mox Ruuga]

He certainly has the Qunari attitude down pat.

Smug insults against people who "don't get it" or "don't have the braincells" etc. 

[sandalisthemaker]

Morocco Mole wrote...

So, then, you're an expert on the Qun?

Are you?

Never claimed to be, and really one does not need to be in order to see the abhorrent, antagonistic nature of the Qunari described and shown thus far.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You don't have to be an expert to realize how little we know of the Qunari. Little enough that we can't make any full conclusions, without filling in a lot of blanks with our own speculations. That doesn't keep half of you back, from claiming they are an absolute evil and worthy only of being on the recieving side of genocide. Which of course begs the question, of who exactly announced you lords of right'n'wrong.

[sandalisthemaker]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You don't have to be an expert to realize how little we know of the Qunari. Little enough that we can't make any full conclusions, without filling in a lot of blanks with our own speculations. That doesn't keep half of you back, from claiming they are an absolute evil and worthy only of being on the recieving side of genocide. Which of course begs the question, of who exactly announced you lords of right'n'wrong.

We do, however,  know that they are a threat to the rest of Thedas, they have been antagonists, and have been foreshadowed to be antagonists in the future.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And that constitutes your utter hatred of them?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vit246 wrote...

You are aware that the Qunari are all about showing "intolerance of different ideas", right?

Yes.

But if you value the welfare of the group more highly than you value the welfare of the individuals within that group, that stance makes perfect sense.

I don't agree with their position philosophically (since I don't acknowledge the existence of groups), but all it takes is one assumption divergent from mine to produce a moral code very much like theirs.

If the Qunari value Qunari society over and above the individuals who make up that society, then it makes perfect moral sense to silence dissent.

[sandalisthemaker]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Antagonist doesn't necessarily equate to evil either.

Meh.  They will be opposed to the player, and that's really all that matters.

[AresKeith]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

He certainly has the Qunari attitude down pat.

Smug insults against people who "don't get it" or "don't have the braincells" etc. 

 

lol

[CronoDragoon]

I don't hate the Qunari, but I will check them if they need checking, Charlie Murphy style.

[EmperorSahlertz]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Antagonist doesn't necessarily equate to evil either.

Meh.  They will be opposed to the player, and that's really all that matters.

Unless the player can join them.

[Mox Ruuga]

The Qunari started a war of conquest from first contact, have shown themselves of being intolerant totalitarians who practise mind rape and slavery, and relentless in their single minded aggression. When they are engaged in conversation, they are smug in their superiority and arrogantly insult the "bas" they come in contact with.

It is puzzling to me that Qun fans still claim we don't know enough about the rotten creed that is the Qun. They don't try to hide their motives, or their contempt of the rest of Thedas' societies.