508 réponses à ce sujet

[Mox Ruuga]

I bet all you outraged Qun fans in this thread would just love to have your characters smile and nod whenever Sebastian, Leliana, Petrice, or any of the other Chantry true believers gave you a piece of their personal "truth", without any way of telling them off, or even giving them a well argued counter, without them always getting in the last word (often with a sneering insult thrown in for a good measure).

That's how it is with us and the Qun. For some reason, our characters lose their brains whenever a Qunbot starts spewing nonsense... It should be finally corrected in DA:I.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

I bet all you outraged Qun fans in this thread would just love to have your characters smile and nod whenever Sebastian, Leliana, Petrice, or any of the other Chantry true believers gave you a piece of their personal "truth", without any way of telling them off, or even giving them a well argued counter, without them always getting in the last word (often with a sneering insult thrown in for a good measure).

That's how it is with us and the Qun. For some reason, our characters lose their brains whenever a Qunbot starts spewing nonsense... It should be finally corrected in DA:I.

Uhm.... What?

No one says that you shouldn't be able to disagree with Qun. Some are merely pointing out, that to show intolerance of different ideas, is not something amicable, and shouldn't be cultivated in any medium.

Whenever someone you disagree with says something, you should be able to voice your disagreement, but in a civilized manner. What amny of you are making it sound like is that you want to be able to spit any Qunari in the face, even the ones you aren't in dialogue with. And all that, just because you don't like the Qun.

That is extremely xenophobic, and, to be hoenst, childlike.

[Beerfish]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

 I'd like to be able to put Qunbots properly in their place in DA:I. Hopefully this will be possible? Until now, in the previous games, the dialogue options seem to have been, as far as I can remember, to either express relatively polite confusion about Qun (after which the Qunbot disses you), or make subtly admiring/appeasing comments.

I know for a fact that not every player of DA games loves the idea of this totalitarian collectivist death cult, so I'd like to be able to be at least as condemning and dismissive towards it in dialogue as my Wardens and Hawkes have been able to be towards the Chantry.

Please do not force our character to respect the vile ethos of Qun.

I agree with this 100%...no 110%.  Probably no other character had me as frustrated with convos as the Arishok.

[Chaos Hammer]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I wish we could have sided with the Arishok in DA2.

With him in charge neither the mages or templars would have been a problem.

Give him the Tome of Koslun and he'll live to be replaced off-screen.

Oh, don't even get me started on Sten becoming the new Arishok, especially since it's regardless of your past choices.

I mean, I love the guy, but Bioware's obsession with all your companions becoming super-important people in the universe no matter how much sense it does or doesn't make is, frankly, really annoying.

To be fair, Sten was a fairly high ranking when he was with the warden, and some characters like Zevran were not all that important in the end, Wynne either, hell Oghren was just a military commander turned warden

[Beerfish]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Okay.

Why anyone would ever want to be able to be highly intolerant of a different view than one's own, is beyond me. Being able to show dislike for it is one thing, but straight up hateful intolerance? Something quite else.

Happy?

Becasue the Qunari and the Arishok do exactly that then pass it off as 'you just do not understand'.  Once those Qunmorons show some tolerance for anyone other than themelves I'll gladly be tolerant of them.

[Chaos Hammer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

I bet all you outraged Qun fans in this thread would just love to have your characters smile and nod whenever Sebastian, Leliana, Petrice, or any of the other Chantry true believers gave you a piece of their personal "truth", without any way of telling them off, or even giving them a well argued counter, without them always getting in the last word (often with a sneering insult thrown in for a good measure).

That's how it is with us and the Qun. For some reason, our characters lose their brains whenever a Qunbot starts spewing nonsense... It should be finally corrected in DA:I.

Uhm.... What?

No one says that you shouldn't be able to disagree with Qun. Some are merely pointing out, that to show intolerance of different ideas, is not something amicable, and shouldn't be cultivated in any medium.

Whenever someone you disagree with says something, you should be able to voice your disagreement, but in a civilized manner. What amny of you are making it sound like is that you want to be able to spit any Qunari in the face, even the ones you aren't in dialogue with. And all that, just because you don't like the Qun.

That is extremely xenophobic, and, to be hoenst, childlike.

Elves in DA:O have the option to tell every high ranking human that they hate their guts.... and its not Xenophobia when the people in question's first interaction was a violent take over with indoctrination after war.... its just hate, hate is allowed

[Merlex]

Angrywolves wrote...

Another bad dude player.
Let me give you some advice .
It might be Laidlaw, forget who said it, but it's possible for a player to exclude himself from 60 percent of the game by making certain decisions.
This sounds like one of those kinds of decisions.
So no,
I wouldn't disrepect the Qun.
No polite way to do it.
Put them in their place ?
Rotfl. Bad idea pal. Good luck with that.

Excluding yourself from 60% of the game, would be a big waste of money. Not to mention, what you would be around 11th level when you finished DA2? Why bother?
So let me get this straight. You want everyone the love and respect the Qun? Well so much for role playing. DA2 gave you some ability to disagree with the Qun. Personally, i'd prefer to be able to embrace, or critcize the Qun. Being able to develope your opinions on subjects, is a major part of role playing.

One of my characters from DA2 was pro-circle, but didn't like some templars' methods. This was very hard to play, as the game was written. The same character was very much, against the presense of the Qunari in Kirkwall. He saw them and their beliefs, as a danger to the city. This too, was very hard to play as written, without coming off as an unscrupulous a-wipe.

[Beerfish]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

I bet all you outraged Qun fans in this thread would just love to have your characters smile and nod whenever Sebastian, Leliana, Petrice, or any of the other Chantry true believers gave you a piece of their personal "truth", without any way of telling them off, or even giving them a well argued counter, without them always getting in the last word (often with a sneering insult thrown in for a good measure).

That's how it is with us and the Qun. For some reason, our characters lose their brains whenever a Qunbot starts spewing nonsense... It should be finally corrected in DA:I.

Uhm.... What?

No one says that you shouldn't be able to disagree with Qun. Some are merely pointing out, that to show intolerance of different ideas, is not something amicable, and shouldn't be cultivated in any medium.

Whenever someone you disagree with says something, you should be able to voice your disagreement, but in a civilized manner. What amny of you are making it sound like is that you want to be able to spit any Qunari in the face, even the ones you aren't in dialogue with. And all that, just because you don't like the Qun.

That is extremely xenophobic, and, to be hoenst, childlike.

LOL the behaviour you decry is the exact behaviour that qunari exhibit ALL the time.  Not tolerant, not polite about it, fanatical, willing to eradicate those that don't conform to their ideals.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Okay.

Why anyone would ever want to be able to be highly intolerant of a different view than one's own, is beyond me. Being able to show dislike for it is one thing, but straight up hateful intolerance? Something quite else.

Happy?

Not all views are created equal. Totalitarian dictatorships that strip people of their individuality shouldn't be tolerated under any circumstances.

Do I have to point out that this is a subjective statement passed of as an absolute truth? Or are you capable of realizing that, and thus also capable of realizing that YOU do not, in fact, hold the key to absolute truth, and thus should not try to sound like you do?

Um... duh? Obviously that's my opinion. I never claimed otherwise.

If you want to 'respect' the beliefs of a fantical religion that has announced its intention to violently enslave you, you be my guest. I'll be over there, not getting chemically mind-raped.

[Xilizhra]

Do I have to point out that this is a subjective statement passed of as an absolute truth? Or are you capable of realizing that, and thus also capable of realizing that YOU do not, in fact, hold the key to absolute truth, and thus should not try to sound like you do?

I do not. But more importantly, neither do the qunari, and they try to impress the idea that they do far more, and far more egregiously.

No one says that you shouldn't be able to disagree with Qun. Some are merely pointing out, that to show intolerance of different ideas, is not something amicable, and shouldn't be cultivated in any medium.

Well, genocide isn't amicable either, and it's rather laughable that your side espouses that while you condemn the possibility of mere words.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Hatred is a pety thing. If people are unable to rise above it, then they are pety beings. If people can't handle other ideas, without turning to violence or pettiness, then they have failed as intellegent individuals, and do not deserve to even have an opinion. You could say I am intolerant of intolerance, oxymoron as that is.

On a side note: Beerfish, aren't you the guy, who about a year ago, would constantly spew Qunari stanzas all over the board?

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hatred is a pety thing. If people are unable to rise above it, then they are pety beings. If people can't handle other ideas, without turning to violence or pettiness, then they have failed as intellegent individuals, and do not deserve to even have an opinion. You could say I am intolerant of intolerance, oxymoron as that is.

On a side note: Beerfish, aren't you the guy, who about a year ago, would constantly spew Qunari stanzas all over the board?

Apparently not enough to take up arms against the templars.

My goal isn't to hate the qunari, just destroy any and all influence they may have over Thedas.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Templars aren't intolerant. Or rather, ideally they shouldn't be. So no.

And that goal stems from your despise of the Qunari ideals. You are guided by your hatred. It is sad.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars aren't intolerant. Or rather, ideally they shouldn't be. So no.

And that goal stems from your despise of the Qunari ideals. You are guided by your hatred. It is sad.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

However, it's not hatred that guides me, it's morality. Namely, I believe the qunari do too much harm for the Qun to be allowed to exist.

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars aren't intolerant. Or rather, ideally they shouldn't be. So no.

And that goal stems from your despise of the Qunari ideals. You are guided by your hatred. It is sad.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

However, it's not hatred that guides me, it's morality. Namely, I believe the qunari do too much harm for the Qun to be allowed to exist.

Your morality is pretty much the same as hatred

[EmperorSahlertz]

Beerfish wrote...

LOL the behaviour you decry is the exact behaviour that qunari exhibit ALL the time.  Not tolerant, not polite about it, fanatical, willing to eradicate those that don't conform to their ideals.

So basically, because they are intolerant, you are intolerant, proving yourself no better, and actually just as bad. Tell me again why YOUR ideas are more "right" than theirs. because from my point of view, you are exactly as bad as the Qunari.

[d4eaming]

The Qunari culture/religion is one of oppressive and slavery and abuse and destruction of individuality. Of course there are people who will despise such a culture and want to see it wiped out. I'm one of them.

Pretend all you like that you're better somehow for being oh so openminded about an abusive culture, I doubt those of us who hate the Qun give a fig.

[d4eaming]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

LOL the behaviour you decry is the exact behaviour that qunari exhibit ALL the time.  Not tolerant, not polite about it, fanatical, willing to eradicate those that don't conform to their ideals.

So basically, because they are intolerant, you are intolerant, proving yourself no better, and actually just as bad. Tell me again why YOUR ideas are more "right" than theirs. because from my point of view, you are exactly as bad as the Qunari.

Our "morality" (I personally prefer ethics, as morality is generally mired in religion, and religion does not inform my beliefs about how to treat others) does not abuse and stifle people, the way the Qun does.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

LOL the behaviour you decry is the exact behaviour that qunari exhibit ALL the time.  Not tolerant, not polite about it, fanatical, willing to eradicate those that don't conform to their ideals.

So basically, because they are intolerant, you are intolerant, proving yourself no better, and actually just as bad. Tell me again why YOUR ideas are more "right" than theirs. because from my point of view, you are exactly as bad as the Qunari.

Being intolerant of a single philosophy for its practices is not the same as being intolerant of all philosophies other than your own just because.

[Jaulen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

LOL the behaviour you decry is the exact behaviour that qunari exhibit ALL the time.  Not tolerant, not polite about it, fanatical, willing to eradicate those that don't conform to their ideals.

So basically, because they are intolerant, you are intolerant, proving yourself no better, and actually just as bad. Tell me again why YOUR ideas are more "right" than theirs. because from my point of view, you are exactly as bad as the Qunari.

Ah! The "You're being intollerant of their intollerance!" argument.

d4eaming wrote...

The Qunari culture/religion is one of oppressive and slavery and abuse and destruction of individuality. Of course there are people who will despise such a culture and want to see it wiped out. I'm one of them.

Pretend all you like that you're better somehow for being oh so openminded about an abusive culture, I doubt those of us who hate the Qun give a fig.

And there are people who would WANT to live in that sort of culture where you don't have to think for yourself.
They should be allowed to.

What chaps my innards about the Qun is the forcable conversion/military aspect of their culture. Come at me and my culture with fire in your eyes and expect a fireball to the face. Maybe two or three for good measure. And screw ever sharing the secrets of cookies with them.

So for me....yeah, I'd like the ability to tell the Qun to Sod off.....with violenece if necessry.
(Please let one of the DA games deal with a Qun invasion.....)

Modifié par Jaulen, 03 octobre 2013 - 05:56 .

[Eralrik]

Last time I played bad guy was in KoToR and had Revan make Zaalbar kill his friend and one of my favorite Jedi died I felt guilty for weeks. Now I play as a Lawful Good Paladin in every game or Chaotic good style character as it's my real life personality, I made a Sith Sorc in SWTOR 100% lightside frustrated the crap out of people in the flashpoints when I chose Lightside and won, hehe. So all my DA characters are good guy softy's. Even in Mass Effect I barely had any character above a quarter renegade and I like Qunari though there are times I want to put my boot up the Arishok's butt.

Modifié par Eralrik, 03 octobre 2013 - 05:53 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

d4eaming wrote...

The Qunari culture/religion is one of oppressive and slavery and abuse and destruction of individuality. Of course there are people who will despise such a culture and want to see it wiped out. I'm one of them.

Pretend all you like that you're better somehow for being oh so openminded about an abusive culture, I doubt those of us who hate the Qun give a fig.

I don't give two pots of ****** about Qunari culture. I care about the culture I live in, which apparently breed ignorant hateful petty little misfits. And that is what saddens me. Because at the end of the day, their hatred blinds them to the fact, that they are EXACTLY as bad as the Qunari, and as such, are just as deserving of the punishment, they so righteously wants to meter out.

[Mox Ruuga]

 Oh yes, that "tolerate every ciontroversial opinion and concept I like, no matter how vile you consider them, otherwise you're a dirty damn racis--... I mean intolerant person!"

Let us have no values and no standards, because you might offend someone by standing up for yourself or yours against them trying to impose over you.


---

In any case, hopefully if Bioware devs happen to read this thread: please consider the pleas from those of us who do not love totalitarianism, and place freedom of thought and personal liberty above "big brother" deciding what's best for you. If nothing else, consider ceasing the special kid gloves treatment Qun and its followers get, and give our characters the option to shut them up in similar manner we have been able with Chantry followers from since the beginning.

Also, please consider having NPCs that are opponents of the Qun be presented in a more reasonable light, and not always letting the bots get in the last word.

Modifié par Mox Ruuga, 03 octobre 2013 - 06:05 .

[AresKeith]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

 Oh yes, that "tolerate every ciontroversial opinion and concept I like, no matter how vile you consider them, otherwise you're a dirty damn racis--... I mean intolerant person!"

Let us have no values and no standards, because you might offend someone by standing up for yourself or yours against them trying to impose over you.

You know that he's not saying you can't be against them right? 

[Trolldrool]

The Qunari have a more advanced culture in terms of medicine and architecture and education than any other civilization in the DA world. I'm going to guess that there's almost no corruption (Note: Almost) either because their authority figures are are too indoctrinated about their cause to even think of putting their own needs over that of the people they are supposedly meant to govern.

They're not a tyrannical dictatorship that rules through fear and subjugation. They have devised a culture that is meant to ensure a long and prosperous life for all involved where they don't have to worry about being killed or mugged and made means to protect them from famine and plague.

And their women have more administrative rights than in any other society in the world, save perhaps the Dalish.

In exchange for giving up personal freedoms and interests and dedicating your life only to the proffessions your body and/or mind is deemed appropriate for, of course.

I'm not blind to how reprehensible Qunari society is, but they're not oppressive overlords that rely on scaring the population into submission to further their own interests as I've read many posts in this thread seem to think they are.

Modifié par Trolldrool, 03 octobre 2013 - 06:14 .