AresKeith wrote...
You know that he's not saying you can't be against them right?
Honestly, I don't think he does.AresKeith wrote...
Mox Ruuga wrote...
Oh yes, that "tolerate every ciontroversial opinion and concept I like, no matter how vile you consider them, otherwise you're a dirty damn racis--... I mean intolerant person!"
Let us have no values and no standards, because you might offend someone by standing up for yourself or yours against them trying to impose over you.
You know that he's not saying you can't be against them right?
Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 03 octobre 2013 - 06:12 .
Someone earlier in the thread, wanted to burn the Tome of Koslun and take a **** in its ashes...Mox Ruuga wrote...
AresKeith wrote...
You know that he's not saying you can't be against them right?
He wants us to "oppose" them on his own terms. He also made baseless insinuations about opponents of Qun wanting "racist" options.
Which is not what we want. We just want to be able to have the same variety of character opinion options against the Qun, that already exist toward the Chantry.
No, they just skip the threats and start forcing conversion through violence from the word go. And if you rebel, they use mind-altering chemicals to reduce you to a mindless drone. That's much better.Trolldrool wrote...
The Qunari have a more advanced culture in terms of medicine and architecture and education than any other civilization in the DA world. I'm going to guess that there's almost no corruption (Note: Almost) either because their authority figures are are too indoctrinated about their cause to even think of putting their own needs over that of the people they are supposedly meant to govern.
They're not a tyrannical dictatorship that rules through fear and subjugation. They have devised a culture that is meant to ensure a long and prosperous life for all involved where they don't have to worry about being killed or mugged and made means to protect them from famine and plague.
And their women have more administrative rights than in any other society in the world, save perhaps the Dalish.
In exchange for giving up personal freedoms and interests and dedicating your life only to the proffessions your body and/or mind is deemed appropriate for, of course.
I'm not blind to how reprehensible Qunari society is, but they're not oppressive overlords that rely on scaring the population into submission to further their own interests as I've read many posts in this thread seem to think they are.
Plaintiff wrote...
No, they just skip the threats and start forcing conversion through violence from the word go. And if you rebel, they use mind-altering chemicals to reduce you to a mindless drone. That's much better.Trolldrool wrote...
The Qunari have a more advanced culture in terms of medicine and architecture and education than any other civilization in the DA world. I'm going to guess that there's almost no corruption (Note: Almost) either because their authority figures are are too indoctrinated about their cause to even think of putting their own needs over that of the people they are supposedly meant to govern.
They're not a tyrannical dictatorship that rules through fear and subjugation. They have devised a culture that is meant to ensure a long and prosperous life for all involved where they don't have to worry about being killed or mugged and made means to protect them from famine and plague.
And their women have more administrative rights than in any other society in the world, save perhaps the Dalish.
In exchange for giving up personal freedoms and interests and dedicating your life only to the proffessions your body and/or mind is deemed appropriate for, of course.
I'm not blind to how reprehensible Qunari society is, but they're not oppressive overlords that rely on scaring the population into submission to further their own interests as I've read many posts in this thread seem to think they are.
And if you rebel against human countries, they kill you, if you go against dwarven society, it makes you a casteless, if you go against elven society... ahahah, got you! What elven society?Plaintiff wrote...
No, they just skip the threats and start forcing conversion through violence from the word go. And if you rebel, they use mind-altering chemicals to reduce you to a mindless drone. That's much better.Trolldrool wrote...
The Qunari have a more advanced culture in terms of medicine and architecture and education than any other civilization in the DA world. I'm going to guess that there's almost no corruption (Note: Almost) either because their authority figures are are too indoctrinated about their cause to even think of putting their own needs over that of the people they are supposedly meant to govern.
They're not a tyrannical dictatorship that rules through fear and subjugation. They have devised a culture that is meant to ensure a long and prosperous life for all involved where they don't have to worry about being killed or mugged and made means to protect them from famine and plague.
And their women have more administrative rights than in any other society in the world, save perhaps the Dalish.
In exchange for giving up personal freedoms and interests and dedicating your life only to the proffessions your body and/or mind is deemed appropriate for, of course.
I'm not blind to how reprehensible Qunari society is, but they're not oppressive overlords that rely on scaring the population into submission to further their own interests as I've read many posts in this thread seem to think they are.
Trolldrool wrote...
The Qunari have a more advanced culture in terms of medicine and architecture and education than any other civilization in the DA world. I'm going to guess that there's almost no corruption (Note: Almost) either because their authority figures are are too indoctrinated about their cause to even think of putting their own needs over that of the people they are supposedly meant to govern.
They're not a tyrannical dictatorship that rules through fear and subjugation. They have devised a culture that is meant to ensure a long and prosperous life for all involved where they don't have to worry about being killed or mugged and made means to protect them from famine and plague.
And their women have more administrative rights than in any other society in the world, save perhaps the Dalish.
In exchange for giving up personal freedoms and interests and dedicating your life only to the proffessions your body and/or mind is deemed appropriate for, of course.
I'm not blind to how reprehensible Qunari society is, but they're not oppressive overlords that rely on scaring the population into submission to further their own interests as I've read many posts in this thread seem to think they are.
All right, but they definitely rule by subjugation and seem to convert in part by fear. And I don't buy what's said about there being no corruption, or at least I don't accept it without proof.I don't think it's wrong to hate the Qunari. I just think if it's going to be done, it should be for who they actually are, not by adding evil tropes they don't have.
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I don't give two pots of ****** about Qunari culture. I care about the culture I live in, which apparently breed ignorant hateful petty little misfits. And that is what saddens me. Because at the end of the day, their hatred blinds them to the fact, that they are EXACTLY as bad as the Qunari, and as such, are just as deserving of the punishment, they so righteously wants to meter out.d4eaming wrote...
The Qunari culture/religion is one of oppressive and slavery and abuse and destruction of individuality. Of course there are people who will despise such a culture and want to see it wiped out. I'm one of them.
Pretend all you like that you're better somehow for being oh so openminded about an abusive culture, I doubt those of us who hate the Qun give a fig.
Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 octobre 2013 - 06:24 .
Plaintiff wrote...
I do not hold to ridiculous notions of blanket tolerance for all groups. No, I will not tolerate all opposing views. I have to deal with groups in real life that want to interfere with my private actions and my rights. I have to deal with groups that want to enact violence against me. No, I'm not going to be tolerant of them. Tolerance can get ****ed. It's not about "tolerance", it's about protecting myself and my rights. I reserve my tolerance for people who earn it by not being utter dickwads.
And in Thedas, it's about protecting the lives and rights of others from a group of brainwashed monsters that has explicitly declared its intention to invade and enforce its beliefs through indiscriminate slaughter.
Plaintiff wrote...
And in Thedas, it's about protecting the lives and rights of others from a group of brainwashed monsters that has explicitly declared its intention to invade and enforce its beliefs through indiscriminate slaughter.
Dave of Canada wrote...
Plaintiff wrote...
And in Thedas, it's about protecting the lives and rights of others from a group of brainwashed monsters that has explicitly declared its intention to invade and enforce its beliefs through indiscriminate slaughter.
You're right, kill all mages.
Yes, there's a lot of unjust situations in Thedas, and I'd like to put an end to all of them, by any means necessary.Chari wrote...
And if you rebel against human countries, they kill you, if you go against dwarven society, it makes you a casteless, if you go against elven society... ahahah, got you! What elven society?
Conquest is never a happy process. Just never
If it was accurate, it would be funny.Dave of Canada wrote...
Plaintiff wrote...
And in Thedas, it's about protecting the lives and rights of others from a group of brainwashed monsters that has explicitly declared its intention to invade and enforce its beliefs through indiscriminate slaughter.
You're right, kill all mages.
Since I don't know where you are from, that will be hard to determine. But I'm just gonna go with the usual suspect: USA.d4eaming wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I don't give two pots of ****** about Qunari culture. I care about the culture I live in, which apparently breed ignorant hateful petty little misfits. And that is what saddens me. Because at the end of the day, their hatred blinds them to the fact, that they are EXACTLY as bad as the Qunari, and as such, are just as deserving of the punishment, they so righteously wants to meter out.d4eaming wrote...
The Qunari culture/religion is one of oppressive and slavery and abuse and destruction of individuality. Of course there are people who will despise such a culture and want to see it wiped out. I'm one of them.
Pretend all you like that you're better somehow for being oh so openminded about an abusive culture, I doubt those of us who hate the Qun give a fig.
Oh? Tell me where I am oppressing people's ability to self-determine, or illegalizing religions or cultures other than my own? Tell me where I am forcibly converting people to what I believe at sword point and then murdering them when they don't comply. Tell me where I am stripping people of their individuality and punishing them when they dare show their affection if they fall in love. Tell me where I am stealing children in order to raise them in a hive mind of religious zealotry.
I'll wait.
It's life at its worst and best, wild, chaotic and unpredictable. No one will ever reach such level, unless they completelly part ways with Mother Nature and their basic instincts and weaknessesPlaintiff wrote...
Yes, there's a lot of unjust situations in Thedas, and I'd like to put an end to all of them, by any means necessary.Chari wrote...
And if you rebel against human countries, they kill you, if you go against dwarven society, it makes you a casteless, if you go against elven society... ahahah, got you! What elven society?
Conquest is never a happy process. Just never
In a just and fair society, violent rebellion is not needed, because a just and fair society provides legitimate avenues through which individuals can peacefully attempt to change laws.
Thedas has no such systems in place anywhere, so violence becomes necessary.
Guest_Roly Voly_*
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Okay.
Why anyone would ever want to be able to be highly intolerant of a different view than one's own, is beyond me. Being able to show dislike for it is one thing, but straight up hateful intolerance? Something quite else.
Happy?
I... I just want to spllaud to you, monsieurEmperorSahlertz wrote...
Since I don't know where you are from, that will be hard to determine. But I'm just gonna go with the usual suspect: USA.d4eaming wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I don't give two pots of ****** about Qunari culture. I care about the culture I live in, which apparently breed ignorant hateful petty little misfits. And that is what saddens me. Because at the end of the day, their hatred blinds them to the fact, that they are EXACTLY as bad as the Qunari, and as such, are just as deserving of the punishment, they so righteously wants to meter out.d4eaming wrote...
The Qunari culture/religion is one of oppressive and slavery and abuse and destruction of individuality. Of course there are people who will despise such a culture and want to see it wiped out. I'm one of them.
Pretend all you like that you're better somehow for being oh so openminded about an abusive culture, I doubt those of us who hate the Qun give a fig.
Oh? Tell me where I am oppressing people's ability to self-determine, or illegalizing religions or cultures other than my own? Tell me where I am forcibly converting people to what I believe at sword point and then murdering them when they don't comply. Tell me where I am stripping people of their individuality and punishing them when they dare show their affection if they fall in love. Tell me where I am stealing children in order to raise them in a hive mind of religious zealotry.
I'll wait.
Self-determination is the biggest lie of the 20th century. You are a worker ant, and you will never be anyhting more. The great big american dream "you can be anything" is a lie.
And I can't help but notice that you actually try and hold the Qunari up to a 21st century moral standard.
USA has been trying for decades to demonize ANY other culture, that doesn't value "freedom", "democracy" and capitalism as highly as they do. Just look at the cold war. Decades of ruthless pursuit of people simply of another conviction than the ones in power. Everything was taken from these people, simply because they believed in something else.
Every single recent war USA has waged has been one big attempt to try and "convert" the countires in question, to the AMERICAN WAY, despite what the media tries to tell you. Dont flatter yourselves, it really wasn't for the freedom of the Iraqi people or the Afghans, so don't try to pass it off as such.
And NOTHING in the Qun prevents individuality. If you are so hung up on your name, lets say you are called Peter, would you lose ANY of the characteristics that makes you you, if I were to tell you that there are MILLIONS of Peters out there? No. Names are meaningless, but we as a culture puts great value in them, because that is the way we have developed. Qunari have not.
Also, so far there have been nothing indicating that Qunari are not allowed to love. However, they would not love the same way we are used to. They would not have sex with their loved one for instance, since sex is by the Qunari, considered as a tool for breeding, and nothing more. Last I chekced, love is so much more than sex. But of course, in a hypersexualized culture as the west, the loss of it, would be seen as a huge inhumanity.
And while we do prefer to raise our own young, and it isn't wrong to raise children as a community either. But again, since we have grown up with it, that is the way "things are", thus that is the way things should be.
At the end of the day, ALL your hatred, is born of ignorance (and had the Qunari been real, probably fear aswell) of the Qunari society. And if there is one feat that is harder than almost anyhting these days, it is the admittance of ignorance. Thus, it is far easier to hate the Qunari, and never acknowledge one's own ignorance, than to actually try and learn, adapt and overcome. In essence, it is easier to be hateful and ignorant, than progressive and enlightened.
I hold no illusions that I am enlightened, because I know I am not. However, I am capable of admitting my own ignorance of the Qunari culture, and thus see that any hatred I might hold for them, would be born of ignorance, and my own warped idea of what a Qunari is. And admitance of ignorance, is the first step of enlightenment.
AresKeith wrote...
That matched your avi so perfectly
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 03 octobre 2013 - 06:45 .
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Do I have to point out that this is a subjective statement passed of as an absolute truth? Or are you capable of realizing that, and thus also capable of realizing that YOU do not, in fact, hold the key to absolute truth, and thus should not try to sound like you do?Plaintiff wrote...
Not all views are created equal. Totalitarian dictatorships that strip people of their individuality shouldn't be tolerated under any circumstances.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Okay.
Why anyone would ever want to be able to be highly intolerant of a different view than one's own, is beyond me. Being able to show dislike for it is one thing, but straight up hateful intolerance? Something quite else.
Happy?
Modifié par aphelion4, 03 octobre 2013 - 06:49 .
The American Dream being a lie might be relevant if no one had any input on their positions whatsoever, and if those who didn't want to participate had their brains melted into submission. Since neither of those are true, let us move on.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Since I don't know where you are from, that will be hard to determine. But I'm just gonna go with the usual suspect: USA.d4eaming wrote...
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I don't give two pots of ****** about Qunari culture. I care about the culture I live in, which apparently breed ignorant hateful petty little misfits. And that is what saddens me. Because at the end of the day, their hatred blinds them to the fact, that they are EXACTLY as bad as the Qunari, and as such, are just as deserving of the punishment, they so righteously wants to meter out.d4eaming wrote...
The Qunari culture/religion is one of oppressive and slavery and abuse and destruction of individuality. Of course there are people who will despise such a culture and want to see it wiped out. I'm one of them.
Pretend all you like that you're better somehow for being oh so openminded about an abusive culture, I doubt those of us who hate the Qun give a fig.
Oh? Tell me where I am oppressing people's ability to self-determine, or illegalizing religions or cultures other than my own? Tell me where I am forcibly converting people to what I believe at sword point and then murdering them when they don't comply. Tell me where I am stripping people of their individuality and punishing them when they dare show their affection if they fall in love. Tell me where I am stealing children in order to raise them in a hive mind of religious zealotry.
I'll wait.
Self-determination is the biggest lie of the 20th century. You are a worker ant, and you will never be anyhting more. The great big american dream "you can be anything" is a lie.
And I can't help but notice that you actually try and hold the Qunari up to a 21st century moral standard.
USA has been trying for decades to demonize ANY other culture, that doesn't value "freedom", "democracy" and capitalism as highly as they do. Just look at the cold war. Decades of ruthless pursuit of people simply of another conviction than the ones in power. Everything was taken from these people, simply because they believed in something else.
Every single recent war USA has waged has been one big attempt to try and "convert" the countires in question, to the AMERICAN WAY, despite what the media tries to tell you. Dont flatter yourselves, it really wasn't for the freedom of the Iraqi people or the Afghans, so don't try to pass it off as such.
And NOTHING in the Qun prevents individuality. If you are so hung up on your name, lets say you are called Peter, would you lose ANY of the characteristics that makes you you, if I were to tell you that there are MILLIONS of Peters out there? No. Names are meaningless, but we as a culture puts great value in them, because that is the way we have developed. Qunari have not.
Also, so far there have been nothing indicating that Qunari are not allowed to love. However, they would not love the same way we are used to. They would not have sex with their loved one for instance, since sex is by the Qunari, considered as a tool for breeding, and nothing more. Last I chekced, love is so much more than sex. But of course, in a hypersexualized culture as the west, the loss of it, would be seen as a huge inhumanity.
And while we do prefer to raise our own young, and it isn't wrong to raise children as a community either. But again, since we have grown up with it, that is the way "things are", thus that is the way things should be.
At the end of the day, ALL your hatred, is born of ignorance (and had the Qunari been real, probably fear aswell) of the Qunari society. And if there is one feat that is harder than almost anyhting these days, it is the admittance of ignorance. Thus, it is far easier to hate the Qunari, and never acknowledge one's own ignorance, than to actually try and learn, adapt and overcome. In essence, it is easier to be hateful and ignorant, than progressive and enlightened.
I hold no illusions that I am enlightened, because I know I am not. However, I am capable of admitting my own ignorance of the Qunari culture, and thus see that any hatred I might hold for them, would be born of ignorance, and my own warped idea of what a Qunari is. And admitance of ignorance, is the first step of enlightenment.
aphelion4 wrote...
So yes, not all views are created equal in my eyes.
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