508 réponses à ce sujet

[Mox Ruuga]

Please mods, ignore the derailing attempts. They are all by a single user, attempting stifle discussion critical to his favorite invented totalitarian creed.

The real point of this thread is about giving us players more options, not bizarre rants against "the American Way".

[d4eaming]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

d4eaming wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

d4eaming wrote...

The Qunari culture/religion is one of oppressive and slavery and abuse and destruction of individuality. Of course there are people who will despise such a culture and want to see it wiped out. I'm one of them.

Pretend all you like that you're better somehow for being oh so openminded about an abusive culture, I doubt those of us who hate the Qun give a fig.

I don't give two pots of ****** about Qunari culture. I care about the culture I live in, which apparently breed ignorant hateful petty little misfits. And that is what saddens me. Because at the end of the day, their hatred blinds them to the fact, that they are EXACTLY as bad as the Qunari, and as such, are just as deserving of the punishment, they so righteously wants to meter out.

Oh? Tell me where I am oppressing people's ability to self-determine, or illegalizing religions or cultures other than my own? Tell me where I am forcibly converting people to what I believe at sword point and then murdering them when they don't comply. Tell me where I am stripping people of their individuality and punishing them when they dare show their affection if they fall in love. Tell me where I am stealing children in order to raise them in a hive mind of religious zealotry.

I'll wait.

Since I don't know where you are from, that will be hard to determine. But I'm just gonna go with the usual suspect: USA.

Self-determination is the biggest lie of the 20th century. You are a worker ant, and you will never be anyhting more. The great big american dream "you can be anything" is a lie.
And I can't help but notice that you actually try and hold the Qunari up to a 21st century moral standard.
USA has been trying for decades to demonize ANY other culture, that doesn't value "freedom", "democracy" and capitalism as highly as they do. Just look at the cold war. Decades of ruthless pursuit of people simply of another conviction than the ones in power. Everything was taken from these people, simply because they believed in something else.
Every single recent war USA has waged has been one big attempt to try and "convert" the countires in question, to the AMERICAN WAY, despite what the media tries to tell you. Dont flatter yourselves, it really wasn't for the freedom of the Iraqi people or the Afghans, so don't try to pass it off as such.
And NOTHING in the Qun prevents individuality. If you are so hung up on your name, lets say you are called Peter, would you lose ANY of the characteristics that makes you you, if I were to tell you that there are MILLIONS of Peters out there? No. Names are meaningless, but we as a culture puts great value in them, because that is the way we have developed. Qunari have not.
Also, so far there have been nothing indicating that Qunari are not allowed to love. However, they would not love the same way we are used to. They would not have sex with their loved one for instance, since sex is by the Qunari, considered as a tool for breeding, and nothing more. Last I chekced, love is so much more than sex. But of course, in a hypersexualized culture as the west, the loss of it, would be seen as a huge inhumanity.
And while we do prefer to raise our own young, and it isn't wrong to raise children as a community either. But again, since we have grown up with it, that is the way "things are", thus that is the way things should be.

At the end of the day, ALL your hatred, is born of ignorance (and had the Qunari been real, probably fear aswell) of the Qunari society. And if there is one feat that is harder than almost anyhting these days, it is the admittance of ignorance. Thus, it is far easier to hate the Qunari, and never acknowledge one's own ignorance, than to actually try and learn, adapt and overcome. In essence, it is easier to be hateful and ignorant, than progressive and enlightened.
I hold no illusions that I am enlightened, because I know I am not. However, I am capable of admitting my own ignorance of the Qunari culture, and thus see that any hatred I might hold for them, would be born of ignorance, and my own warped idea of what a Qunari is. And admitance of ignorance, is the first step of enlightenment.

My, that is an awful lot of assumptions you got going there.

-American Dream: I knew that back in middle school. I don't see how that's relevant anyway. My self-determination doesn't mean I determine myself to be a milionare. It means I choose what I do with my own body, how I look and dress, where I live, what I read or watch, what hobbies I partake in. No one has absolute freedom to do absolutely anything, as that would be anarchy and not generally a positive thing for society.

-American demonization: I don't think I've ever said, anywhere, that I'd support that. There are some cultures that are genuinely awful and do need to be changed, but that's not all of them, or even most. What the politicians decide to do is outside of my hands aside from voting or lobbying.

-The Middle East: Anyone that thinks that was about American freedoms is an idiot. Where is the rolly-eye emoticon?

-Names: Not everyone considers them meaningless, but at the same time, they can be a representation of something very important to the individual, and being stripped of it can be harmful. No, my legal name is not unique, and I actually hate it and prefer something else, but I do have a unique name, part of my belief system, that is very important to me for personal reasons. Luckily I don't need outsiders to recognize or care about it. Also, taking away someone's name and giving them something generic is a way of dehumanizing people. So good on you supporting that.

-Sex/love conflation: Thanks again for the assumptions. I've been celebate for 7 years and despise being touched, at all, in any way. But anyway, a great many people, maybe even the majority, consider the two relational and interconnected, across most cultures. So whatever, the Qunari brainwash and abuse people who show affection through intimacy, that's not something I'd laud them for.

And now I'm bored with your rant, so that's where I'm stopping.

[aphelion4]

Dave of Canada wrote...

aphelion4 wrote...

So yes, not all views are created equal in my eyes.

So... intolerate intolerance in order to remove intolerance?

If I'm intolerant of a culture that brutalizes mages, forcibly converts people against their will, and "re-educates" those who don't wish to conform and in the end rob them of free-will, etc, then yes. In fact I'm quite proud of not being able sympathize with nutcases.

[Chari]

aphelion4 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

aphelion4 wrote...

So yes, not all views are created equal in my eyes.

So... intolerate intolerance in order to remove intolerance?

If I'm intolerant of a culture that brutalizes mages, forcibly converts people against their will, and "re-educates" those who don't wish to conform and in the end rob them of free-will, etc, then yes.

Well, at least you admitted it XD

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And NOTHING in the Qun prevents individuality. If you are so hung up on your name, lets say you are called Peter, would you lose ANY of the characteristics that makes you you, if I were to tell you that there are MILLIONS of Peters out there? No. Names are meaningless, but we as a culture puts great value in them, because that is the way we have developed. Qunari have not.

Anything will be "meaningless" to someone that doesn't care about it. My name means something to me, and if it's "meaningless" to the Qunari, then why should they care if I keep mine?

But they do care. They want to take people's names away, and replace them. Obviously names aren't meaningless to the Qunari, or else they wouldn't do that. In fact, names are very important, because a Qunari's name is their entire role in life. They are named after the job they do, their name describes their entire purpose in life. In Qunari society, names are vital.

Also, so far there have been nothing indicating that Qunari are not allowed to love. However, they would not love the same way we are used to. They would not have sex with their loved one for instance, since sex is by the Qunari, considered as a tool for breeding, and nothing more. Last I chekced, love is so much more than sex. But of course, in a hypersexualized culture as the west, the loss of it, would be seen as a huge inhumanity.

Whether or not people conflate sex with love is irrelevent. I don't conflate sex with love and I still think the Qunari breeding practices are vile. 

It is an enormous inhumanity. People should be allowed to choose when/if they have sex, and they should also be allowed to choose when/if to have children. It has nothing to do with "love" (whoever said it did?) and everything to do with having ownership of your own body. What the Qunari do to their adherents is essentially rape.

And while we do prefer to raise our own young, and it isn't wrong to raise children as a community either. But again, since we have grown up with it, that is the way "things are", thus that is the way things should be.

At the end of the day, ALL your hatred, is born of ignorance (and had the Qunari been real, probably fear aswell) of the Qunari society. And if there is one feat that is harder than almost anyhting these days, it is the admittance of ignorance. Thus, it is far easier to hate the Qunari, and never acknowledge one's own ignorance, than to actually try and learn, adapt and overcome. In essence, it is easier to be hateful and ignorant, than progressive and enlightened.

I'm not ignorant of the Qun. I've spoken with one of its three leaders, and he made it unquestionably clear that violent forced conversion is a major tenet of the faith, and that the Qunari are preparing to carry out that task in the near future. That is the only information I need.

Yes, I would fear it if it was real, and I'd be right to. It has publicly declared its intention to murder me. Any action I take against it at this point is self-defense.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 octobre 2013 - 07:03 .

[aphelion4]

Chari wrote...

aphelion4 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

aphelion4 wrote...

So yes, not all views are created equal in my eyes.

So... intolerate intolerance in order to remove intolerance?

If I'm intolerant of a culture that brutalizes mages, forcibly converts people against their will, and "re-educates" those who don't wish to conform and in the end rob them of free-will, etc, then yes.

Well, at least you admitted it XD

I never said I could tolerate fanatics. Why is this a problem? O.o In our world are we supposed to think that all cultures are equal when they clearly are not?

Edit: again, this will probably be the last thing I'll say because how similar cultures in Thedas mirror real life ones and the thread will probably be closed.

Modifié par aphelion4, 03 octobre 2013 - 07:04 .

[Potato Cat]

I'm fine with the intolerance of intolerance. What I don't like is the intolerance of tolerance of intolerance, when the intolerance of the Qunari is obviously not why the tolerant support them, but because they feel the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. My best friend and I probably couldn't have more different political beliefs, but that's no reason we can't accept and appreciate why we see things that way.

[AresKeith]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Please mods, ignore the derailing attempts. They are all by a single user, attempting stifle discussion critical to his favorite invented totalitarian creed.

The real point of this thread is about giving us players more options, not bizarre rants against "the American Way".

Derailing what? 

[Chaos Hammer]

God, I am sooo tired of the American Bashing... Freedom may not have been the politicians goals in Iraq, but its what drove the soldiers .... like the American Civil war .... thousands died to protect the freedoms of others.... claim that's not what it was but whenever any abolition documents of such (the Emancipation proclamation and such) volunteering sky rocketed for the union.... who sends more aid then anyone else to countries after natural disasters, who rebuilt the world after the World wars.

if youre an American be thankful... because without America or her influences what you've said would be called subversive and youd be in jail..... another point, with America "playing police" the Soviet Union would have brought a third world war.... probably to annihilation

So if you want to hate the US so be it.... but don't try and tell me slavery is better than freedom

[Plaintiff]

LOL. The Soviet Union collapsed under the weight of its own starving populace. There was never any legitimate danger of a third world war.

[wright1978]

Yep i'd definitely like to be able to be actively against the Qun, I'd also like to be actively against the Chantry too.

[Trolldrool]

In any case, I should probably present an answer to the OP, I think this sounds like a pretty decent idea to make playing a Tal-Vashoth immersive. If it's to be done however, it should be an option where a fight with Qunari is all but inevitable, but where you also have options to avoid a fight for players who want to play a cautious Inquisitor that isn't looking for fights.

Maybe it could be an option exclusive to Tal-Vashoth players and the Qunari react much more aggressively compared to if you pick another way to initiate a fight. As in DA2, some actions were only possible if you played a mage.

Kind of like how the Qunari always attack you regardless of what you say when you deliver Ketojan, but instantly become frightened when they learn you're a mage.

[jtav]

I think the Inquisitor should be able to hold a wide variety of opinions on the Qun. I see why some people might find it attractive and why some could find it repulsive. Both should be accounted for.

[Magdalena11]

This post is a response to the belief that the arranged breeding practices of the Qunari are inhumane. Qunari have friends (Sten wound up being one of my closest buddies in DAO) and they love others. Sex just isn't their way of showing it. I get the feeling that sex is considered a bodily function and looked upon as just as natural. If a qunari was selected for breeding with a certain partner, he or she would go about reproduction with the same diligence that a master smith might make a sword. The qunari in question would simply be fulfilling his or her role in something that may benefit all society. Arranged marriages are practiced all over Thedas and the qunari model is just another aspect of an arranged marriage. Is turning children over to the tamrassans (I'm pretty sure I spelled it wrong) all that different than modern society's reliance on day-care and babysitters? I'm not sure how vile the Qun really is and I would like the opportunity to explore its philosophy. I may not want to espouse it with my PC but I think it's a subject that I'd like to see explored in greater depth.

[Beerfish]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hatred is a pety thing. If people are unable to rise above it, then they are pety beings. If people can't handle other ideas, without turning to violence or pettiness, then they have failed as intellegent individuals, and do not deserve to even have an opinion. You could say I am intolerant of intolerance, oxymoron as that is.

On a side note: Beerfish, aren't you the guy, who about a year ago, would constantly spew Qunari stanzas all over the board?

The Qunari hated Kirkwall and most of it;s citizens.
The Qunari unleashed a posionous gas into the hands of fanatics knowing citizens would be killed.
The Qunari dissaproved of their tal vasoth and thus got Hawke to kill them on their behalf.
The Qunari (Sten) murdered an innocent family because lost his sword.
The Qunari took over Kirkwall and killed many people including the Viscount who was at least sympathetic and tolerant of them.

Once I see any major Qunari player in this franchise act as they preach I'll give them some quarter.  They have proven to be sheer and utter phonies in this game series so far.  some Zen like high ideal but when it comes down to it they react just like any other race and or religion when faced with some adversity.

[Star fury]

Plaintiff wrote...

LOL. The Soviet Union collapsed under the weight of its own starving populace.

Facepalm. Don't write bull****, as I lived in the USSR.

[AresKeith]

Beerfish wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hatred is a pety thing. If people are unable to rise above it, then they are pety beings. If people can't handle other ideas, without turning to violence or pettiness, then they have failed as intellegent individuals, and do not deserve to even have an opinion. You could say I am intolerant of intolerance, oxymoron as that is.

On a side note: Beerfish, aren't you the guy, who about a year ago, would constantly spew Qunari stanzas all over the board?

The Qunari hated Kirkwall and most of it;s citizens.
The Qunari unleashed a posionous gas into the hands of fanatics knowing citizens would be killed.
The Qunari dissaproved of their tal vasoth and thus got Hawke to kill them on their behalf.
The Qunari (Sten) murdered an innocent family because lost his sword.
The Qunari took over Kirkwall and killed many people including the Viscount who was at least sympathetic and tolerant of them.

I consider that a plus for the Qunari hating Kirkwall and taking it over

And you really can't point the gas at them

[Trolldrool]

Magdalena11 wrote...

This post is a response to the belief that the arranged breeding practices of the Qunari are inhumane. Qunari have friends (Sten wound up being one of my closest buddies in DAO) and they love others. Sex just isn't their way of showing it. I get the feeling that sex is considered a bodily function and looked upon as just as natural. If a qunari was selected for breeding with a certain partner, he or she would go about reproduction with the same diligence that a master smith might make a sword. The qunari in question would simply be fulfilling his or her role in something that may benefit all society. Arranged marriages are practiced all over Thedas and the qunari model is just another aspect of an arranged marriage. Is turning children over to the tamrassans (I'm pretty sure I spelled it wrong) all that different than modern society's reliance on day-care and babysitters? I'm not sure how vile the Qun really is and I would like the opportunity to explore its philosophy. I may not want to espouse it with my PC but I think it's a subject that I'd like to see explored in greater depth.

From the perspective of the Casteless in Orzammar, the Qun would probably be very attractive, since to them it would be a choice between a life where their only purpose is to be miserable so the noble Caste can look down on them to reflect on how much better their own lives are. The alternative would be sacrificing their individual freedoms in exchange for being clothed and fed and given proper jobs and where their existence is acknowledged.

By pitting two extremes like that against each other, the Qun doesn't seem so bad. But the Qun is just that. An extreme, and although there definitely are benefits to joining the Qun, it's a very high price to pay. The disgust for the Qun mostly stems from the fact that you have no choice. If a person decides that his or her life is just fine the way it is, they forcibly expose that person to Qamek, a substance that wipes all its memories apart from the ability to follow instructions and turn it into a mindless slave to carry out manual labour.

[Vit246]

AresKeith wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hatred is a pety thing. If people are unable to rise above it, then they are pety beings. If people can't handle other ideas, without turning to violence or pettiness, then they have failed as intellegent individuals, and do not deserve to even have an opinion. You could say I am intolerant of intolerance, oxymoron as that is.

On a side note: Beerfish, aren't you the guy, who about a year ago, would constantly spew Qunari stanzas all over the board?

The Qunari hated Kirkwall and most of it;s citizens.
The Qunari unleashed a posionous gas into the hands of fanatics knowing citizens would be killed.
The Qunari dissaproved of their tal vasoth and thus got Hawke to kill them on their behalf.
The Qunari (Sten) murdered an innocent family because lost his sword.
The Qunari took over Kirkwall and killed many people including the Viscount who was at least sympathetic and tolerant of them.

I consider that a plus for the Qunari hating Kirkwall and taking it over

And you really can't point the gas at them

How the bloody hell can we not point the gas at them? They set up the decoy formula as a trap for gunpowder thieves. Instead of an indiscriminate poison gas formula that would undoubtedly kill hundreds, why didn't the Qunari give away some harmless recipe for cookies? If they had used something else, the gas attack would never have happened. They practically wanted this to happen. The Arishok didn't give a damn about anybody else but Qunari and converts. He pretty much legitimized and earned Kirkwall's hate. 

But no, Hawke is still relatively polite to the Qunari. Not allowed to call them out on their own crap.

Modifié par Vit246, 03 octobre 2013 - 08:16 .

[Plaintiff]

Star fury wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

LOL. The Soviet Union collapsed under the weight of its own starving populace.

Facepalm. Don't write bull****, as I lived in the USSR.

The USSR tanked like 23 years ago. I suspect you are the one who is bull****ting.

[Ianamus]

All I really want is to be able to call them out on their complete lack of ability to accept anyone who believes something different to them, as that's what I really can't stand.

[Beerfish]

AresKeith wrote...



I consider that a plus for the Qunari hating Kirkwall and taking it over

So tolerance, pity, peace and freedom to act as one wishes is only for the Qunari and this from an Arishok who was only beholden to be in krikwall because he was incompetant at findig a book.

And you really can't point the gas at them

Typical qunari response.  We gave the gas to the fanatics, we knew the fanatics were going to use ut but we will disavow any responsiblity in their actions.  What a load of hog wash.

Modifié par Beerfish, 03 octobre 2013 - 08:14 .

[Trolldrool]

Plaintiff wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

LOL. The Soviet Union collapsed under the weight of its own starving populace.

Facepalm. Don't write bull****, as I lived in the USSR.

The USSR tanked like 23 years ago. I suspect you are the one who is bull****ting.

Yeah, and 24 years ago 90% of the world, including economic and history experts were convinced that the Red Menace could last another century. It's easy to say the Soviet Union would have collapsed anyway when you look back on it in hindsight.

Also while the Soviet Union might have been doomed to fail, there was no nationwide famine in the 80s like you imply. If anything, the only thing you've accomplished with this post is to give a perfect example of what happens when someone believes everything they're told by the victors (who write history). Just like the Qunari.

[AresKeith]

Beerfish wrote...

AresKeith wrote...



I consider that a plus for the Qunari hating Kirkwall and taking it over

So tolerance, pity, peace and freedom to act as one wishes is only for the Qunari and this from an Arishok who was only beholden to be in krikwall because he was incompetant at findig a book.

And you really can't point the gas at them

Typical qunari response.  We gave the gas to the fanatics, we knew the fanatics were going to use ut but we will disavow any responsiblity in their actions.  What a load of hog wash.

:lol: If you say so