508 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I was waiting for the genocide people to show up

The Qunari must eventually be purged.  There is no other way.

There's no other way to what? Protect the people of Thedas from learning, racial equality, and proper sanitation?

Such rose tinted glasses....
The Qunari intend to conquer. They will force the Qun on everyone, and anyone who resists will be slain or qameked.  They are not nearly the enlightened beings you make them out to be.

You're absolutely right. I just acknowledge that this makes them different from the rest of Thedas in absolutely no way whatsoever. 

[Xilizhra]

That sentence can just as easily be used to describe Tevinter. Take out the mind rapist part, and you've got Andrastian society as a whole.

Indeed, there's a lot of work to be done. However, culturally speaking, the Andrastian nations and Tevinter are rather similar to nations in our own past which eventually got better; the Qun is wholly alien and seems devoted to never changing its philosophy.

Really, it describes them better, because if there is one thing the qunari are not, it's genocidal. They may well want to destroy the cultural identity of the people they conquer, but they don't want to wipe out any people as a whole. That would be too wasteful for them.

But they wouldn't mind if they didn't get converts.

[sandalisthemaker]

MasterScribe wrote...

I imagine this will only come up if the Qunari are also an enemy faction within the game.

Otherwise, randomly condemning the Qun (in the absence of Qunari antagonism) seems unnecessary.

Unless one of our companions has a strongly negative opinion of the Qun and the player is permitted to join in his or her adamant hatred.

Honestly, your last sentence would be good enough, but I'm hoping for Qunari enemies to return.

[Former_Fiend]

Xilizhra wrote...

That sentence can just as easily be used to describe Tevinter. Take out the mind rapist part, and you've got Andrastian society as a whole.

Indeed, there's a lot of work to be done. However, culturally speaking, the Andrastian nations and Tevinter are rather similar to nations in our own past which eventually got better; the Qun is wholly alien and seems devoted to never changing its philosophy.

Really, it describes them better, because if there is one thing the qunari are not, it's genocidal. They may well want to destroy the cultural identity of the people they conquer, but they don't want to wipe out any people as a whole. That would be too wasteful for them.

But they wouldn't mind if they didn't get converts.

What can I say? I admire conviction.

And they don't wipe out those who refuse to convert. Granted, what they do(quamek to turn them into mindless laborers) isn't much better, but the Andrastian response to refusal to convert usually ends up involving mass graves.

[Medhia Nox]

@sandalisthemaker: Does your indictment of conquerors extend to the real world?

I can think of a few popular nations that forced their world view on everyone and anyone who resisted was slain (I'm not sure what qameked is).

I don't support the conquest of the Qun - but this sort of condemnation - when it is ignored by other in game, or real world, examples - just seems, inconsistent.

As if you're condemning them because you don't like them - the fact that they also conquer is superfluous to the argument and a convenient weapon.

I'm not stating - I'm curious.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 octobre 2013 - 11:48 .

[Wulfram]

Former_Fiend wrote...

What can I say? I admire conviction.

And they don't wipe out those who refuse to convert. Granted, what they do(quamek to turn them into mindless laborers) isn't much better, but the Andrastian response to refusal to convert usually ends up involving mass graves.

Merrill can live in an Andrastean city with her allegiance to her gods literally tattooed on her face.  Can't see anyone managing that in Par Vollen.

[Former_Fiend]

Wulfram wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

What can I say? I admire conviction.

And they don't wipe out those who refuse to convert. Granted, what they do(quamek to turn them into mindless laborers) isn't much better, but the Andrastian response to refusal to convert usually ends up involving mass graves.

Merrill can live in an Andrastean city with her allegiance to her gods literally tattooed on her face.  Can't see anyone managing that in Par Vollen.

Like I said, I admire conviction.

Andrastian society tends to get rather lax after a victory. They don't have the dedication that the Qunari do; at least they don't anymore.

That being said, I think Merrill's anonimity stems more from human ignorance and the status of elves as second class citizens. Even if she wasn't just a nameless, faceless elf in the crowd to them, she'd be lucky(or unlucky, I suppose) to find someone who actually knew what her tattoos meant. At best, they'd recognize them as Dalish.

But I've never accused the qunari of being religiously tolerant. They aren't and I count that as a mark against them.

What I have asserted is that they are the only society in Thedas to practice racial equality. Magic not withstanding, in the Qun, Merrill wouldn't be a faceless elf left to wallow in the knee deep mud of an alienage. She'd be given a role based on her merrits and capability, not her pointy ears.

[Xilizhra]

What I have asserted is that they are the only society in Thedas to practice racial equality. Magic not withstanding, in the Qun, Merrill wouldn't be a faceless elf left to wallow in the knee deep mud of an alienage. She'd be given a role based on her merrits and capability, not her pointy ears.

Yes. That position being a leashed tongueless slave.

[Wulfram]

The darkspawn practice racial equality too. They eat everybody. Well, apart from those they turn into broodmothers.

[sandalisthemaker]

Former_Fiend wrote...


What I have asserted is that they are the only society in Thedas to practice racial equality. Magic not withstanding, in the Qun, Merrill wouldn't be a faceless elf left to wallow in the knee deep mud of an alienage. She'd be given a role based on her merrits and capability, not her pointy ears.

Ha!  Mages are less than dirt within the Qun.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

What I have asserted is that they are the only society in Thedas to practice racial equality. Magic not withstanding, in the Qun, Merrill wouldn't be a faceless elf left to wallow in the knee deep mud of an alienage. She'd be given a role based on her merrits and capability, not her pointy ears.

Yes. That position being a leashed tongueless slave.

But not because she's an elf.

He straight up said racial equality.  Unless you believe mages are a different sub species of different species?

[Medhia Nox]

@BlueMagitek: As if words ever mattered.

[BlueMagitek]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@BlueMagitek: As if words ever mattered.

In words that must be said. Can analysis be worthwhile?

Is the theatre really dead?

[Merlex]

Dave of Canada wrote...

aphelion4 wrote...

So yes, not all views are created equal in my eyes.

So... intolerate intolerance in order to remove intolerance?

Of course not all views are equally valid. Once you have a view, that you care about and believe in; views that oppose them, are seen as invalid or less valid. The position that all views, are equally valid is an absurdity. Only a psychopath, can see reality in that way. They devoid of empathy.

I'll give you an example: I am very much against slavery. Though in the real world, there is still slavery in it. Parts of the sex trade, is one example. But there are those, who would disagree with me. Mainly those who own slaves. They would believe, that nothing is wrong with it. The way of the world, the strong survive, and the weak are used and perish. Should i believe that this is an equally valid viewpoint? Of course not. It is diametrically opposed to my viewpoint. To believe that such a viewpoint, has validity equal to my own; would mean that i don't really believe, my viewpoint in the first place.

Another example: Would an atheist, not an agnostic but a true atheist, that believes that there is not a God, would he/she believe that christiananity is an equal viewpoint? I'm not about other people rights, to believe what they want. But an atheist would not believe, that christianity is a valid view, much less an equally valid view. How could they? They don't believe in a God, much less in the Son of God. The two views cannot exist together. Either one or the other is correct.

Personally i have an open mind, about some things. I haven't made up my mind, one way or another. But there are some things i do believe, and they are set in stone. It wouldn't be much of a belief, if i thought that opposing belief were equally valid. That is not intolerance.

Modifié par Merlex, 04 octobre 2013 - 12:12 .

[Former_Fiend]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...


What I have asserted is that they are the only society in Thedas to practice racial equality. Magic not withstanding, in the Qun, Merrill wouldn't be a faceless elf left to wallow in the knee deep mud of an alienage. She'd be given a role based on her merrits and capability, not her pointy ears.

Ha!  Mages are less than dirt within the Qun.

Which is why I specified "magic not withstanding". 

I do find the Qunari treatment of mages deplorable, but Andrastian treatment isn't much better. 

And while deplorable, it does seem to be more effective at the whole, stopping possessions thing.

Modifié par Former_Fiend, 04 octobre 2013 - 12:12 .

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What I have asserted is that they are the only society in Thedas to practice racial equality. Magic not withstanding, in the Qun, Merrill wouldn't be a faceless elf left to wallow in the knee deep mud of an alienage. She'd be given a role based on her merrits and capability, not her pointy ears.

Yes. That position being a leashed tongueless slave.

But not because she's an elf.

He straight up said racial equality.  Unless you believe mages are a different sub species of different species?

My point is just that racial equality isn't everything, especially when you just lash out at another biological grouping in trade.

[sandalisthemaker]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What I have asserted is that they are the only society in Thedas to practice racial equality. Magic not withstanding, in the Qun, Merrill wouldn't be a faceless elf left to wallow in the knee deep mud of an alienage. She'd be given a role based on her merrits and capability, not her pointy ears.

Yes. That position being a leashed tongueless slave.

But not because she's an elf.

He straight up said racial equality.  Unless you believe mages are a different sub species of different species?

If Fenris was mentioned, sure.  But Merrill would be shackled as soon as she was found to be a mage.
Non-mage city elves (and elven Tevinter slaves) are really the only groups I could see benefitting from joining the Qun, since their lives *might* improve.

Human society should resist at all cost.

[Merlex]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

God, I am sooo tired of the American Bashing... Freedom may not have been the politicians goals in Iraq, but its what drove the soldiers .... like the American Civil war .... thousands died to protect the freedoms of others.... claim that's not what it was but whenever any abolition documents of such (the Emancipation proclamation and such) volunteering sky rocketed for the union.... who sends more aid then anyone else to countries after natural disasters, who rebuilt the world after the World wars.

if youre an American be thankful... because without America or her influences what you've said would be called subversive and youd be in jail..... another point, with America "playing police" the Soviet Union would have brought a third world war.... probably to annihilation

So if you want to hate the US so be it.... but don't try and tell me slavery is better than freedom

+1

[Former_Fiend]

Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What I have asserted is that they are the only society in Thedas to practice racial equality. Magic not withstanding, in the Qun, Merrill wouldn't be a faceless elf left to wallow in the knee deep mud of an alienage. She'd be given a role based on her merrits and capability, not her pointy ears.

Yes. That position being a leashed tongueless slave.

But not because she's an elf.

He straight up said racial equality.  Unless you believe mages are a different sub species of different species?

My point is just that racial equality isn't everything, especially when you just lash out at another biological grouping in trade.

And my point is that the Qun is no better or worse than other Thedosian societies. It's simply different; it has it's own virtues, and it's own drawbacks. 

[Xilizhra]

And my point is that the Qun is no better or worse than other Thedosian societies. It's simply different; it has it's own virtues, and it's own drawbacks.

I'd call it worse, for the reason that it shows fewer signs of being able to change.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

My point is just that racial equality isn't everything, especially when you just lash out at another biological grouping in trade.

Then you should have just said that rather than ignore the point.

[Merlex]

MasterScribe wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

I imagine this will only come up if the Qunari are also an enemy faction within the game.

Otherwise, randomly condemning the Qun (in the absence of Qunari antagonism) seems unnecessary.

Unless one of our companions has a strongly negative opinion of the Qun and the player is permitted to join in his or her adamant hatred.

Honestly, your last sentence would be good enough, but I'm hoping for Qunari enemies to return.

Cassandra: I hate the Qun.
Inquisitor: Oh yeah? Me too.
Cassandra: I like you.
Inquisitor: I REALLY hate the Qun.