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[CVigilantia]

Former_Fiend wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...

What can I say? I admire conviction.

And they don't wipe out those who refuse to convert. Granted, what they do(quamek to turn them into mindless laborers) isn't much better, but the Andrastian response to refusal to convert usually ends up involving mass graves.

Merrill can live in an Andrastean city with her allegiance to her gods literally tattooed on her face.  Can't see anyone managing that in Par Vollen.

Like I said, I admire conviction.

Andrastian society tends to get rather lax after a victory. They don't have the dedication that the Qunari do; at least they don't anymore.

That being said, I think Merrill's anonimity stems more from human ignorance and the status of elves as second class citizens. Even if she wasn't just a nameless, faceless elf in the crowd to them, she'd be lucky(or unlucky, I suppose) to find someone who actually knew what her tattoos meant. At best, they'd recognize them as Dalish.

But I've never accused the qunari of being religiously tolerant. They aren't and I count that as a mark against them.

What I have asserted is that they are the only society in Thedas to practice racial equality. Magic not withstanding, in the Qun, Merrill wouldn't be a faceless elf left to wallow in the knee deep mud of an alienage. She'd be given a role based on her merrits and capability, not her pointy ears.

But she wouldn't. She'd essentially be given a role at birth (were she born there). It's essentially a 3-role caste system where you might be able to move and progress in your role, but you'd never be able to do what you want if you weren't assigned your ambition. It's why people don't have a name, they have a role.

I am oddly reminded of Man of Steel: "What if the child aspires to be something greater?"

Einstein could have been a soldier. Think about that.

Besides, I'm getting too many images of WW2 Japan indoctrination and fanatacism except replace the Emporer with the Qun. Their society is so rigid and set in stone, it feels like a society that will sail into a continent even though they see it coming; their path locked in by the Qun.

[Androme]

 Yes please.

[Daissran]

I actually don't mind the Qun. They seems a bit forceful, but the Qun takes care of its people, I doubt they even have poverty. They don't have racial intolerance and everyone has their own part in society, I think its comforting to 'know who you are' and where you stand in society.

I realise that some people may wish to be something else or have dreams about their own future, but as on overall system of governing ...the Qun is effective and logical.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Beerfish wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hatred is a pety thing. If people are unable to rise above it, then they are pety beings. If people can't handle other ideas, without turning to violence or pettiness, then they have failed as intellegent individuals, and do not deserve to even have an opinion. You could say I am intolerant of intolerance, oxymoron as that is.

On a side note: Beerfish, aren't you the guy, who about a year ago, would constantly spew Qunari stanzas all over the board?

The Qunari hated Kirkwall and most of it;s citizens.
The Qunari unleashed a posionous gas into the hands of fanatics knowing citizens would be killed.
The Qunari dissaproved of their tal vasoth and thus got Hawke to kill them on their behalf.
The Qunari (Sten) murdered an innocent family because lost his sword.
The Qunari took over Kirkwall and killed many people including the Viscount who was at least sympathetic and tolerant of them.

Once I see any major Qunari player in this franchise act as they preach I'll give them some quarter.  They have proven to be sheer and utter phonies in this game series so far.  some Zen like high ideal but when it comes down to it they react just like any other race and or religion when faced with some adversity.

Of course they did. They were stuck in a foreign city, full of people who hates them. Why wouldn't tehy hate being in Kirkwall?
Of course they used the gas. With the gas, they would take care of the rogue elements of Kirkwall, which constantly harassed them. Ruthless, sure. But it isn't something no other country wouldn't do, so why is it especially bad, jsut because the Qunari do it?
Actually, the Qunari never asked Hawke to do anyhting about the Tal Vasoth. They were impressed that Hawke managed to kill them, but they consdiered it a matter for themselves to handle, not an outsider.
If you woke and found out you had lost your soul, you would probably also be distressed. Qunari are bigger, faster and stronger, and humans are weak in comparisson. If a Qunari lose contorl amongst humans, casualties are bound to happen. And are you seriously judging an entire civilization based on the actions of an individual. Who actually even repents his actions, and realize his own crime....
And lastly push came to shove. Kirkwall had for years been provoking the Qunari, who had done nothing to Kirkwall but commited the crime of existing. I don't blame them for rising up in defense of themselves.

[KiwiQuiche]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I wish we could have sided with the Arishok in DA2.

With him in charge neither the mages or templars would have been a problem.

Give him the Tome of Koslun and he'll live to be replaced off-screen.

Oh, don't even get me started on Sten becoming the new Arishok, especially since it's regardless of your past choices.

I mean, I love the guy, but Bioware's obsession with all your companions becoming super-important people in the universe no matter how much sense it does or doesn't make is, frankly, really annoying.

THAT.

But yes, the Qunari are too damn intense and need to be put down. Tallis's retardness and railroading "durr sunshine give me spy-list while I walk off" just made it worse.

[Bionuts]

Lol.

Superman vs. Evil little man with an ugly face and poison gas to take over the world

[Ieldra]

The qunari and the Imperium are at opposing ends of the individualist vs. collectivist scale. I wish to treat both extremes with the proper disregard, and I dislike how in DA2, the qunari were written as "maybe slightly misguided" while the Imperium is the root of all evil.

So yes, OP, I wish not just to "properly disrespect" the Qun in DAI, but to make decisions resulting in significant disadvantage to its followers.

[Bionuts]

You're against the Qun because of how it indoctrinates and treats it's followers, so what would be the point of yelling at them?

[Laughing_Man]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The qunari and the Imperium are at opposing ends of the individualist vs. collectivist scale. I wish to treat both extremes with the proper disregard, and I dislike how in DA2, the qunari were written as "maybe slightly misguided" while the Imperium is the root of all evil.

So yes, OP, I wish not just to "properly disrespect" the Qun in DAI, but to make decisions resulting in significant disadvantage to its followers.

Exactly.

[Former_Fiend]

CVigilantia wrote...


But she wouldn't. She'd essentially be given a role at birth (were she born there). It's essentially a 3-role caste system where you might be able to move and progress in your role, but you'd never be able to do what you want if you weren't assigned your ambition. It's why people don't have a name, they have a role.

I am oddly reminded of Man of Steel: "What if the child aspires to be something greater?"

Einstein could have been a soldier. Think about that.

Besides, I'm getting too many images of WW2 Japan indoctrination and fanatacism except replace the Emporer with the Qun. Their society is so rigid and set in stone, it feels like a society that will sail into a continent even though they see it coming; their path locked in by the Qun.

No she wouldn't. Qunari practice selective breeding to produce children ideally set for one role or another, but they're not so impractical in this as to ignore a child's obvious merits. A boy bred to be a soldier will be a soldier only if that is what he was best suited for. If he was better suited for the priesthood, he'd be a priest.

And if Einstein had applied his intellect towards game theory, strategy and tactics as a military officer instead of becoming a physicist, we may not have had an atom bomb. Lot of people would consider that a good thing.

[Potato Cat]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The qunari and the Imperium are at opposing ends of the individualist vs. collectivist scale. I wish to treat both extremes with the proper disregard, and I dislike how in DA2, the qunari were written as "maybe slightly misguided" while the Imperium is the root of all evil.

So yes, OP, I wish not just to "properly disrespect" the Qun in DAI, but to make decisions resulting in significant disadvantage to its followers.

To be fair, a lot of people misunderstood and thought the Qun silly and sexist and saw the Tevinters as legitimately alright. DA2 was to try and balance these opinions. We know there's decent Magisters, like Maevaris and Dorian, (despite the fact he's just a concept at this point to the fans), but many of them are less so.

By Origins, I believed Tevinter to be a place ruled by mages, but where they lived in somewhat harmony, (like a less 'good' version pf the Dalish Keepers), with mundanes and while slavery and blood magic was common, it was still not universally accepted what with the presence of the Imperial Chantry. I also thought humans were also slaves, that's something I'm still not quite sure if that's a thing or not.

[Xilizhra]

And if Einstein had applied his intellect towards game theory, strategy and tactics as a military officer instead of becoming a physicist, we may not have had an atom bomb. Lot of people would consider that a good thing.

Perhaps. Or perhaps there'd have been far more casualties in an invasion of Japan, and later no utterly terrifying weapon to keep actual war between superpowers at bay. It's one of those things you can't just remove without thought.

No she wouldn't. Qunari practice selective breeding to produce children ideally set for one role or another, but they're not so impractical in this as to ignore a child's obvious merits. A boy bred to be a soldier will be a soldier only if that is what he was best suited for. If he was better suited for the priesthood, he'd be a priest.

Aren't priests all female?

Of course they used the gas. With the gas, they would take care of the rogue elements of Kirkwall, which constantly harassed them. Ruthless, sure. But it isn't something no other country wouldn't do, so why is it especially bad, jsut because the Qunari do it?

It failed egregiously and killed only innocents. And they weren't even after the people acting against them directly, just some random alleged thief.

If you woke and found out you had lost your soul, you would probably also be distressed. Qunari are bigger, faster and stronger, and humans are weak in comparisson. If a Qunari lose contorl amongst humans, casualties are bound to happen. And are you seriously judging an entire civilization based on the actions of an individual. Who actually even repents his actions, and realize his own crime....

I wouldn't have such a stupid and weakness-creating belief to begin with.

And lastly push came to shove. Kirkwall had for years been provoking the Qunari, who had done nothing to Kirkwall but commited the crime of existing. I don't blame them for rising up in defense of themselves.

It was not defense. They attacked the entire city because one guard captain was being overbearing.

[Wulfram]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The qunari and the Imperium are at opposing ends of the individualist vs. collectivist scale. I wish to treat both extremes with the proper disregard, and I dislike how in DA2, the qunari were written as "maybe slightly misguided" while the Imperium is the root of all evil.

So yes, OP, I wish not just to "properly disrespect" the Qun in DAI, but to make decisions resulting in significant disadvantage to its followers.

The imperium isn't at all individualist.  If anywhere is individualist in Thedas, it's Fereldan.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 octobre 2013 - 12:31 .

[Potato Cat]

Xilizhra, the Qunari view the priesthood as a gender neutral role. The Ariqun can be male or female. However, there are many different roles within the priesthood. Tamassrans are technically priests I believe, but they are all female, and the Ben Hassrath are also technically priests, but that is gender neutral. Both these also seem to be wide umbrella terms too, with a lot of specialisation, (Rasaan, Tallis, Salit....)

[Navasha]

Well, for me, there really is no difference between collectivism and slavery. Being forced to appease those who condone and practice slavery is a bit disconnecting with my characters. So, I would at least like to see my character be as actively hostile to the Qun as they would to slavers.

[Bionuts]

Do you also antagonize slaves?

[Xilizhra]

Bionuts wrote...

Do you also antagonize slaves?

Slaves who aren't also slavers do not, in general, evangelize about the virtues of slavery, or kill those who are opposed to it. As such, I don't see them counting.

[Bionuts]

Except those who follow the Qun are brainwashed to do so, and are tortured if they rebel. They are brainwashed into thinking that it's right. One only need look at Saarebas to see how far it goes.

Antagonizing Qunari because they follow the Qun seems pointless and stupid. It's not as if they had a choice to begin with.

[Xilizhra]

Bionuts wrote...

Except those who follow the Qun are brainwashed to do so, and are tortured if they rebel. They are brainwashed into thinking that it's right. One only need look at Saarebas to see how far it goes.

Antagonizing Qunari because they follow the Qun seems pointless and stupid. It's not as if they had a choice to begin with.

My idea isn't to do that, just do everything possible to stop the qunari.

[Navasha]

Bionuts wrote...

Do you also antagonize slaves?

Well, if I meet a rational Qunari who actually feels like they are 'caged' by the Qun and wishes escape, I most certainly will help them to do so.

If I meet a slave who espouses the virtues of being a slave and wants to convert/force others around them to also be slaves, then YES,.... I most certainly will antagonize them.

[Ieldra]

Wulfram wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The qunari and the Imperium are at opposing ends of the individualist vs. collectivist scale. I wish to treat both extremes with the proper disregard, and I dislike how in DA2, the qunari were written as "maybe slightly misguided" while the Imperium is the root of all evil.

So yes, OP, I wish not just to "properly disrespect" the Qun in DAI, but to make decisions resulting in significant disadvantage to its followers.

The imperium isn't at all individualist.  If anywhere is individualist in Thedas, it's Fereldan.

Not quite. Ferelden emphasizes freedom, which isn't at all the same as unbridled individualism since it places limits on what a powerful individual can do with their power, In the Imperium, no such limit is recognized.

[Sporothrix]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The qunari and the Imperium are at opposing ends of the individualist vs. collectivist scale. I wish to treat both extremes with the proper disregard, and I dislike how in DA2, the qunari were written as "maybe slightly misguided" while the Imperium is the root of all evil.

Not exactly, since both individualism and collectivism come in horizontal and vertical aspects. Usually societies and people who hold "vertical individualist" views are also "vertical collectivists" to some degree, and vice versa for "horizontals".

And it's clear that Imperium has clear social hierarchy, just like Qunari - it's a sign of "vertical collectivism". It's just that Qunari apparently claim that all the roles in their society are equally important, but it's just like it was in real world when peasants were told that they are equal before God and their work is just as important, but it' were the others that make the rules and collect the wealth.

Modifié par misoretu9, 04 octobre 2013 - 01:07 .

[Bionuts]

Navasha wrote...

Well, if I meet a rational Qunari who actually feels like they are 'caged' by the Qun and wishes escape, I most certainly will help them to do so.

If I meet a slave who espouses the virtues of being a slave and wants to convert/force others around them to also be slaves, then YES,.... I most certainly will antagonize them.

"rational Qunari"? "caged"?

You do realize that most Qunari probably enjoy the lives they live.

Antagonizing would be pointless. A person bound in chains is bound in the mind. You'd be kicking an angry crippled dog because it's scaring your kids.

Opposing is one thing, but antagonizing victims of slavery, brainwashing, and torture is silly.

[khariuade]

i dont like qunari culture, i feel im all alone, LEAD THE MARCH!

[Navasha]

Bionuts wrote...

You do realize that most Qunari probably enjoy the lives they live.

Enjoy?   No...  I don't think the Qunari really 'enjoy' anything.   They feel they have 'purpose' and go about performing their role pretty much like robots.    I don't get visions of Qunari children running around chasing puppies.    I am sure they feel "comfort" in their roles since they know what is expected of them and have clear goals and expectations, but I don't sense "Joy" in any of the Qunari we have met so far. 

Opposing is one thing, but antagonizing victims of slavery, brainwashing, and torture is silly.

I am not asking to be able to taunt them and kick them.    I am asking that we be able to show our complete and utter disgust and disagreement for their worldview in conversation, just as we would any slaver we confront.

Modifié par Navasha, 04 octobre 2013 - 01:16 .