543 réponses à ce sujet

[Sherbet Lemon]

Kallimachus wrote...

As a final note, I would add that I never understood the distinction some people make between "romance" and "story". In the context of fiction (including video games) romance IS a story. A story that is an integral part of the plot in any form of narrative art, for as long as there has been art (be it literature, poetry, painting, music, theatre or cinema), except, for some reason, video games. And because video games are such an exception, all that remains to say is - if you do not like romance stories, make use of the fact that in this one and only narrative art form, romance is optional, and skip it. Stop hating on those who like those stories.

Well--you see it's all about genre.  I know this is going engender some sort of snarky response, but romance on its own as a whole is typically devalued when it comes to fiction.  This is also true for scifi/fantasy although the magical realists get acclaim while dodging the unholy mantle of genre, but as far as fiction works things these categories are considered genre are not considered important writing.  Neil Gaiman while acclaimed and worthy of not will never receive the esteem that Phillip Roth has achieved.  There is a reason for that and that is the Academy.  The science fiction/fantasy genre divide doesn't quite follow into video game (because they are not books) but also because there are people who deny that they are still forms of art.  When it comes to romance, I'm going to say that has always been devalued.  It's considered Women's "stuff."  When you isolate the concept of romance writing from the source, you will see its place in modern society as that of being deemed "gendered" storytelling.  It's the rule that "masculinity" as a concept is deserving of serious treatment and all other "woman's stuff" is not worthy of serious treatment. 

[zMataxa]

David Gaider wrote...

There are people who like romances, and for whom they're the most important element in our game. There are also people who don't use the romance content at all. We know this. The fact that these fans like to take pot-shots at each other is irrelevant to us-- the romance content is not going anywhere and we will keep working to improve it even if it's not the dominant feature in the game... despite how annoying both those groups can sometimes be about it. That is our stance.

_______________________

Absolutely SWEET music to these ears.
Thanx for posting that!

[Br3admax]

David Gaider wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...
Am I the only one who doesn't understand Bioware's new "romance's are annoying and suckish" stance? There are a few interviews where Gaider says something to effect of "We don't want to put that much effort into something that is ultimately optional."

This is an RPG isn't the majority of the game "optional"? And being a Bioware RPG isn't it about choice? I'm not saying romances are absolutely needed, or that it makes or breaks the game.... just seems like an odd choice considering they made sex into one of the bigger decisions in the game (DR and OGB).

Again, this is not so much about the merit, or lack there of, of romances. Just the oddity of Bioware's decisions.

If you're interpreting my statements as my thinking "romances are annoying and suckish", you probably need to read what I said again and parse the statements a little more carefully.

As for how much effort we're putting into romances, you'll have to see that for yourselves once we actually talk about what we're doing for romances in DAI. If the idea is "we're not putting much effort into it", I'd say once again that it's a poor interpretation of whatever I said. It's not true. Romances are optional, so the amount of effort is small only in comparison to the rest of the game-- and that contrasts only to the amount of attention that content receives from invested fans (both those rabidly in favor as well as those rabidly opposed).

There are people who like romances, and for whom they're the most important element in our game. There are also people who don't use the romance content at all. We know this. The fact that these fans like to take pot-shots at each other is irrelevant to us-- the romance content is not going anywhere and we will keep working to improve it even if it's not the dominant feature in the game... despite how annoying both those groups can sometimes be about it. That is our stance.

That's what I read it as. If it isn't quality content, it's not good enough to put into the game. No putting in romances without depth. 

[The Hierophant]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Genuinely wondering what a fictional character's booty sweat tastes like is bizarre.

So is asking for the option for the pc to romance his/her sister.

i remember that.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 04 octobre 2013 - 07:06 .

[Br3admax]

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Tali sweat thing, really, just strikes me as mildly odd, the coincidental meeting of interests with someone who was both a chemistry and Tali fan. As for fights, well, there are fights everywhere.

Not when people are talking about what it tastes like. That's a step beyond "mildly odd."

Is there? There's discussion, arguments, but not necessarily fighting. They're two different things.

Midly odd has been here since BG2 with the fans who wanted a romance with the pc and Imoen who is the pc's sister.

It is kind of weird, them not only being raised as siblings, but then turning out to be actual siblings, you would think that it would stop. 

That fact something like that came out in DA2 prove that the weird is not going away.

Full on ASoIaF. Still surprises me that people want that. 

[leaguer of one]

The Hierophant wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Genuinely wondering what a fictional character's booty sweat tastes like is bizarre.

So is asking for the option for the pc to romance his/her sister.

i remember that.

The messed up thing is that it happed twice.. Poor Imoen and Bethany.

[Deadmac]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...
It's interesting that you bring that up. Ok so let's put some perspective into things. Let's say that out of the 3.2 million people that bought it, only 10% romanced the characters. That's 320,000 players, that's still a loooot of people. Plus we already know the hardcore Bioware fans make up a minority of the consumers.

As I was trying to point out in my post, the public does not have any hard numbers. Regardless about how much you try, you do not have the ability to read minds. You are making hypothetical assumptions without actual data. When I posted that 3.2 million number, I had to scurry through Bing for the answer. Only BioWare knows the actual numbers.

Linnk: http://video-games.f...-game-were-sold

Modifié par Deadmac, 04 octobre 2013 - 07:14 .

[wright1978]

zMataxa wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

There are people who like romances, and for whom they're the most important element in our game. There are also people who don't use the romance content at all. We know this. The fact that these fans like to take pot-shots at each other is irrelevant to us-- the romance content is not going anywhere and we will keep working to improve it even if it's not the dominant feature in the game... despite how annoying both those groups can sometimes be about it. That is our stance.

_______________________

Absolutely SWEET music to these ears.
Thanx for posting that!

Woo hoo.

[zMataxa]

leaguer of one wrote...
Andfor the fights... There is a reason the me3  romace forum is closed.

___________________

Sounds like a different forum/subforum/moderation setup, terms of use, and trolling tolerance should be considered to prevent a similar such event.
Sounds like it just got out of hand and the energy was not there to deal with it.
"Trolls" are going to be drawn to that like flies to an untended butcher shop.
I think that can be moderated absolutely.  It will need an iron fist at times.
Just a question, if Bioware/EA deem it worthwhile.

Modifié par zMataxa, 04 octobre 2013 - 07:13 .

[leaguer of one]

Village Idiot wrote...

Kallimachus wrote...

As a final note, I would add that I never understood the distinction some people make between "romance" and "story". In the context of fiction (including video games) romance IS a story. A story that is an integral part of the plot in any form of narrative art, for as long as there has been art (be it literature, poetry, painting, music, theatre or cinema), except, for some reason, video games. And because video games are such an exception, all that remains to say is - if you do not like romance stories, make use of the fact that in this one and only narrative art form, romance is optional, and skip it. Stop hating on those who like those stories.

Well--you see it's all about genre.  I know this is going engender some sort of snarky response, but romance on its own as a whole is typically devalued when it comes to fiction.  This is also true for scifi/fantasy although the magical realists get acclaim while dodging the unholy mantle of genre, but as far as fiction works things these categories are considered genre are not considered important writing.  Neil Gaiman while acclaimed and worthy of not will never receive the esteem that Phillip Roth has achieved.  There is a reason for that and that is the Academy.  The science fiction/fantasy genre divide doesn't quite follow into video game (because they are not books) but also because there are people who deny that they are still forms of art.  When it comes to romance, I'm going to say that has always been devalued.  It's considered Women's "stuff."  When you isolate the concept of romance writing from the source, you will see its place in modern society as that of being deemed "gendered" storytelling.  It's the rule that "masculinity" as a concept is deserving of serious treatment and all other "woman's stuff" is not worthy of serious treatment. 

That just means that is something to work on then. Does the story and genre need to change because of bias views?

[Sylvianus]

leaguer of one wrote...

Filament wrote...

If you want to talk about "driving people away," the overall negative attitude around here has done a lot more to do that (including toward these "romance freaks"), including driving away the devs themselves, than a few people who care more about something than you think they should.

In short, the kicking and screaming about something you don't like to the point if hair pulling is worse enough.

I feel this is just the beginning. :innocent:

[leaguer of one]

zMataxa wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
Andfor the fights... There is a reason the me3  romace forum is closed.

___________________

Sounds like a different forum/subforum/moderation setup, terms of use, and trolling tolerance should be consideredd to prevent a similar such event.
Sounds like it just got out of hand and the eneggy was not there to deal with it.
"Trolls" are going to be drawn to that like flies to an untended butcher shop.
I think that can be moderated absolutley.
Just a question, if Bioware/EA deem it worthwhile.

It was not a lack of energy... The forum was on fire. Imagine passoinate fans unbending to there view fighting others of the same over and over again....
It was hell.

[zMataxa]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's incredibly arbitrary. I can't agree. Things are odd or creepy or whatever based on themselves intrinsically. The context matters, but there are still lines.

I think you're being vastly more arbitrary. The discussion was wholly ephemeral and did no harm to anyone, nor did it even carry the possibility of such. It wasn't even hostile.

___________________

Xili's reaction is exactly the same as mine on this issue.

[leaguer of one]

Sylvianus wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Filament wrote...

If you want to talk about "driving people away," the overall negative attitude around here has done a lot more to do that (including toward these "romance freaks"), including driving away the devs themselves, than a few people who care more about something than you think they should.

In short, the kicking and screaming about something you don't like to the point if hair pulling is worse enough.

I feel this is just the beginning. :innocent:

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But the error...

I prevent universal instantiation.

The post you were responding to initially didn't claim it, though. None of us have (let me change that--most of us have not). We're making broad sweeps--trendlines with error, to keep my analogy.

And that's fine, but broad sweeps often do devolve into universal instantiation.  My continued presence in threads like this is primarily designed to prevent that.

I am prophylactic.

[zMataxa]

leaguer of one wrote...

It was not a lack of energy... The forum was on fire. Imagine passoinate fans unbending to there view fighting others of the same over and over again....
It was hell.

I don't understand why it was hell.
Couldn't you just skip that subforum or that thread within that subforum?
You were in the romance sub-forum.

When I say lack of energy - I mean the Mod for whatever reason had enough.

Modifié par zMataxa, 04 octobre 2013 - 07:25 .

[Kallimachus]

Village Idiot wrote...

Kallimachus wrote...

As a final note, I would add that I never understood the distinction some people make between "romance" and "story". In the context of fiction (including video games) romance IS a story. A story that is an integral part of the plot in any form of narrative art, for as long as there has been art (be it literature, poetry, painting, music, theatre or cinema), except, for some reason, video games. And because video games are such an exception, all that remains to say is - if you do not like romance stories, make use of the fact that in this one and only narrative art form, romance is optional, and skip it. Stop hating on those who like those stories.

Well--you see it's all about genre.  I know this is going engender some sort of snarky response, but romance on its own as a whole is typically devalued when it comes to fiction.  This is also true for scifi/fantasy although the magical realists get acclaim while dodging the unholy mantle of genre, but as far as fiction works things these categories are considered genre are not considered important writing.  Neil Gaiman while acclaimed and worthy of not will never receive the esteem that Phillip Roth has achieved.  There is a reason for that and that is the Academy.  The science fiction/fantasy genre divide doesn't quite follow into video game (because they are not books) but also because there are people who deny that they are still forms of art.  When it comes to romance, I'm going to say that has always been devalued.  It's considered Women's "stuff."  When you isolate the concept of romance writing from the source, you will see its place in modern society as that of being deemed "gendered" storytelling.  It's the rule that "masculinity" as a concept is deserving of serious treatment and all other "woman's stuff" is not worthy of serious treatment. 

That is not what I was referring to. I was not talking about romance literature. I was talking about romance IN literature. Philip Roth, while not writing romance novels, has romance in his novels. Jane Austen, the Bronte sisters,  Shakespeare, and Cervantes have all written masterpieces centred around romance (or at least prominently featuring romance) no academic would dare scoff at.

"Tristan and Isolde" is one of the greatest epic poems ever devised, and it centers completely around a love affair.

And none of the works I mentioned is considered strictly "women's stuff". Like all other story elements, it is the writing and its quality that makes a masterpiece, not the subject, and while it is true that sci-fi / fantasy / horror / comic are considered sometimes "low brow", I think you will find that this view is changing, and there is more and more serious academic discussion of authors such as Ursula K. Le Guin, Lord Dunsany, Alan Moore, and Rutu Modan.

[zMataxa]

Corvus I wrote...

Most of the impasse arguments I see in these threads are not about romance so much as the kind of romance or the depth of romance.

________________

Those are potentially long interesting rewarding conversations.
BUT not when the non-romancers invade and start stirring up the agitation.
They have ZERO interest in romance - yet the continually insert brimstone into these threads anyway.

I restate.  A romance subforum should be considered  - even though it's early in the dev cycle.
Unless, these "firey discussions" are actually a good thing for BSN vibrancy as we wait for more tidbits of game info.

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, yes. What's the point of judging qualities that don't actually do anything?

Because of potential.

I once heard a quote that went something like:

"Feelings become thoughts become opinions become actions become destinies."

Luckily, interactive fiction allows many actions to be restricted to nonphysical realms.

In any case, what do you think would happen? Attempting to chemically reconstitute Tali's sweat IRL? I'm not even certain that's possible, and even if it was, that seems... a tad far-fetched for you to be bringing slippery slope arguments into this.

[zMataxa]

leaguer of one wrote...

zMataxa wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Tali sweat thing, really, just strikes me as mildly odd, the coincidental meeting of interests with someone who was both a chemistry and Tali fan. As for fights, well, there are fights everywhere.

Not when people are talking about what it tastes like. That's a step beyond "mildly odd."

Is there? There's discussion, arguments, but not necessarily fighting. They're two different things.

_________________

That's because your tastes err on the more traditional and composed side (nothing wrong with that).
It's simply beyond mildly odd from your vantage point.

Many other people would say your pervasive interest as an adult in elves, dragons, darkspawan, mages and Ferelden is a step beyond mildly odd.
I would agree that discussing sweat tastes does interest a smaller group in society.
Adding a "step beyond mildly odd" adds in your judgement as to what is right.
Are they hurting anyone with this discussion?

True that's a good point. We can say we think it weird but we don't have a right to have witch hunts about it.

Nice to hear that:)

[zMataxa]

Deadmac wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...
It's interesting that you bring that up. Ok so let's put some perspective into things. Let's say that out of the 3.2 million people that bought it, only 10% romanced the characters. That's 320,000 players, that's still a loooot of people. Plus we already know the hardcore Bioware fans make up a minority of the consumers.

As I was trying to point out in my post, the public does not have any hard numbers. Regardless about how much you try, you do not have the ability to read minds. You are making hypothetical assumptions without actual data. When I posted that 3.2 million number, I had to scurry through Bing for the answer. Only BioWare knows the actual numbers.

Linnk: http://video-games.f...-game-were-sold

_____________

RE: romance numbers.
I would be surprised if Bioware isn't very rough guessing romance numbers using online data.
What other source is there.
So the only numbers they could really be confident about is sales in various countries, and that online players liked this and this.  The offline crowd - it's a wild guess potentially.

[The Six Path of Pain]

zMataxa wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Oh, forget the romances! Bioware needs to focus on more important stuff. Like the gameplay and the story.

______________

That's the point we romancers are making.
The gameplay and story is richer because of the chemistry because of the romances.
There is a incredibly pasionate group that absolutely loves this.
THere is NO ONE that has done it like Bioware.
And no dating sims don't count.  They don't inlcude action, fanstay, conlfict, blood, elves etc.

Meh, you don't need romances to have a rich story or even make a story richer. Especially in a game where it is optional. I'm not saying that romances suck, in fact I Ioved the Morrigan romance in Origins. I'm just saying that at this point, and considering the quality of games that Bioware has put out recently, they should just focus on making a game with fun gameplay and a good story.

Modifié par The Six Path of Pain, 04 octobre 2013 - 07:39 .